New canoe project

[Thickasaplank]

Hello there everybody.... Well. after chatting to The wild dingo, and Ramps, I decided to go ahead and "Just Do It" After copious reading, and searching on the internet I decided on the "Mattawa" from Green valley <http://www.greenval.com/mattawa.html> I managed to get hold of the people who supplied ramps with his timber, and they put on a bead and cove, and milled them to 6 mm for an extra 17c per meter... Wood was about $300. The plans arrived, and I spent a weekend cutting out the forms - major PITA... I do not have a drum sander, so I cut as close to the line as I could, and sometime, when my hand was sore, I landed up cutting a bit too much off - but more on that later. Weekend two was mounting the forms on the strongback...


Now much has been written about strongbacks, and I digested as much as I could. Turns out that you can nip down the salvage yard and buy a laminated beam 15 foot long for thirty bucks... SOLD!!!!:2tsup:

I mounted the moulds on the strongback using 30X30 pine. the pine wasd screwed onto the strongback, and the forms were screwed to the pine.

That was weekend two... and I was pretty eager to do something other than setup..... Weekend three (no kids and a beautiful understanding wife) was spent replacing timber with filler (yup, those pesky jigsaw cuts were makin me pay!!!) I used a long piece of wood and checked for fairness on the moulds, and where the mould was low, I added filler and sanded, and sanded and sanded (yup, you get the idea) until finally the moulds were where they should have been before I CUT THEM TOO DEEP ( WELL i THINK SO ANYWAY!!). By the way I will post pics as soon as I get them small enough.....

[Thickasaplank]

I think this will be a few photos, and if that works I will go and watch House......I will add more tomorrow when there is cr@p on the goggle box... See ya soon..

Bradders

[Ramps]

Good effort
can't believe that you take time off to watch the box though ... I've still got an archaic piece of equipment called a video so as I can watch that important show when I have to be inside with the kids ... but at the moment it doesn't get used.
By the look of all those holes in the forms it looks like you're going for the stapleless system.
watching, watching :2tsup:

[Wild Dingo]

oooh geez get the damned shed dirty dusty chaotic will yer!!... gawd the glare of ugh clean is killin me eyesockets :C

But well tis an honest shed eh? all tin an concrete an shiney too!! glare mate glare :doh:

ANYWAYS!!!... good to see you get to this stage... and heres watchin yer either get further along or stop for whatever reason pack them away and start agin in a years time only to... mmm oh right thats me eh? :B Ive only started mine 5 times now :doh: and every single flamin time I get that far she comes up with something else she must have done NOW!!... actually I near got there once upon a time.. yep all the way round I went almost to the keel... only to find that Tuart really isnt a very good hull timber to use on a supposedly light weight boat like a conoe eh :roll: ... still its a fine start :;

As ramps says are you going for the staple less system or the fishing line system? :2tsup:

Cheers!

[Daddles]

That a canoe or a flamin' battleship :oo:

Yeah yeah, it's just the angle of the photos but she looks huge. Don't get too fussed about perfection - it's needed in places (and fairing the moulds is a good place to get it right) but remember, you're building a boat, not a swiss watch.

Thanks for the photos - I can see another fascinating trip ahead for us :2tsup:

Richard

[Thickasaplank]

All advise readily accepted.....I have progressed quite far from this point, but a couple of slack weeks have given me some spare time!!!! So now then - oh yes, filling and sanding and filling and sanding... I remember.....:doh:My shed only looks sparkly 'cos I had a MAJOR clean up before I started, and I decided for once in my life to keep and area clean.. When I built my bed (pic below) I actually lost one of the legs... !!! It was hidden under some sawdust lol:D:no:

So when I had the moulds right, I had to fair them, this for the uninitiated (as I was and I still only think this is right) is when you ease the edge of the moulds so that no sharp angles intersect the wooden strips.... So out with the plane, and then the belt sander... Plane is still alive - belt sander karked it!!!

Anyway...I digress. So I eased the moulds using a strip of wood attached to two stations behind, and two in front of the mould I was working on. This allowed me to get the right angle. It left me with about two mils of flat untouched mould that had not been eased off. This is all that is in contact with the strips as they are laid against the stations.

At this point I was really tired, and a bit disheartened. I had put in about 50 hours, and so far I had nothing to show for it. I would say that if I was going to give up - it would have been during the fairing process.

Anyhoo, I am scooting for a while - will hop back on in an hour or two..

Bradders

[Boatmik]

When I built my bed (pic below) I actually lost one of the legs... !!! It was hidden under some sawdust lol:D:no:

Bradders

Is that a bed - it looks more like a PDRacer.

MIK

[Ramps]

Mik
I reckon you could design a sail for it ... he must have lost the centreboard in the sawdust as well :D

Thickas ... promise to take a pic of the scarf joint in the Sheaok gunnels on the w/e for you ... it'll come ... promise

[Wild Dingo]

Thickas is just living up to his name is all... start with canoe moulds end up with bed :2tsup: :U :U

Got me wonderin what hes gonna end up with when he starts the paddle :U I reckon probably turn it into a chook run ;: :U

[Thickasaplank]

Can't a bloke have a quiet boast?? Hey Daddles, whadaya know about paddles:doh:

I have not even given them a thought yet.. I suppose that is a reason to have a bit of pondering time away from swmbo... weeeelll I am fishing over the long weekend... (any watfaa members out there??)

So anyway, I nearly gave up, but didn't... I finished the sanding, and the fairing, and then stuch masking tape on the edges of the mould...It never bl00dy stuck did it. So I cleaned the moulds with alcohol, and drank some, and then tried again.

Bugger it I will just build it on unstuck masking tape:~.. By the way - the holes that a very erudite fellow spotted - a LOT of hard work, a total PITA and worth nothin' used em for a day then gave em away.

So now I had the moulds up, and in place, I had the moulds faired and all covered in unstuck masking masking tape. I had decided on sheoak for my finishings... not copying you ramps - completely independent choice, onlyy realised you had the same scheme when I re-read you superb thread.:; So I shot down to the jarahdale mill and had a word with Terry there, and he was cutting sheoak right at that moment. this is where I learned a valuable lesson... Never ask a bloke who has been cutting timber for twenty years what he is doing, cos you make him mad.. Also, dont second guess him when you have specified the sizes, also don't ask him if he is sure he heard you right.:no:

This will serve to anger the said gentleman, and, while he will still give you what you want (business is business) it may lighten your wallet more than you expected...

I had decided to go for the double stem design, (both inner and outer stems) and tapered to boot. Greenvalley suggest that the tapered stems are a lot of hard work, and only suggest you do them if you are confident.. I was confidant, but in hindsight reckon that they were a lot of work. Only do tapered stems if you have a LOT of time.....

I digress. I asked Terry for 12 pieces of 6mmX42mmX1,5m pieces of sheoak, and when he went ferreting around the 19mm stock, I questioned him, and then when he picked up some dodgy looking offcuts, I asked him if he had the dimensions right..:? That is when I got the "laddie, I have been cutting wood................." speech:;

It turns out he cut the wood into strips, making 3 6mm cuts out of the 19 mm plank, this gives the best grain pattern... quarter sawn. Boy did I feel like a plonker!!:B

I passed the strips through the planer, and trimmed them to 42X6X1.5m and then, even thought the had a moisture content of about 92&#37; I steamed them. I used a length of 105mm plastic pipe with plugs top and bottom. A household steam cleaner with its spout poked in a hole at the bottom. I kept the steam going 'till the plastic pipe was hot enough to squeeze out of shape really easily, then I took out the sheoak, and bent it around the stem mould and clamped them in place... What a beauty!!!! 6 pieces per stem - 3 inner and 3 outer.and they bent a treat. Whew. I never got a photo of them 'cos I was pretty busy. Once the wood was bent, I left them for two days to "set" and the removed them and kept them clamped together. I brought them inside, made a "tent"out of an old double duvet, and two chairs. I put the bow, and stern stems under the tent with an oil heater. I left them there for a week until the moisture content was 20%, and then refitted them to the stem moulds. (note to self: When fitting stems, do not try to fit stern stem to bow mould, or one of the pieces will crack causing grief at a later date...)

[Thickasaplank]

Tapered stems are hard work. I glued them up - remember that you only put glue between 1/2 2/3 4/5 5/6 or else you will get one very thick stem. I used polyureathane for the stem. I left them for two days to cure and then I trimmed them up using a taper cutting jig on the table saw, and it came out good, then I cut the 1/2 inch straight section (as detailed in greenval) which turned out great, then I cut the inner stems 12mm smaller than the outer stems on the same profile (allowing for 6mm strips each side) BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD.. the inner stems are 6mm narrower on the FACE edge only, the rear edge has to be wider to allow for fairing. :doh: Oh well first big mistake.. but hey, nothing we cant fix eh?? I never cut new stems as the whole episode was rather stressfull, and once again morale was at a low.. I just wanted to get passed it. I enjoy woodwork immensely, but, as a bit of a perfectionist, get a little het up when I make avoidable errors....

I won't tell you how I fixed it - but will challenge you all to try and see the mistake on the completed canoe... :;

I shaped the stems, and fixed them onto the moulds. I then used a japanese pull saw to cut three quarters around the stems 3/4 inches below the completed gunnell line so that when the boat is completed I can take the stems down to hide the end grain with the decks and the gunnells. It will be a lot easier now that they are significantly weakened.. a sharp tap should break them off quite cleanly.:!

[Thickasaplank]

I was now in a position to fit the first strips, and once again I had to do a heap of research.. what glue, and how to do the scarf joints....:- MUCH PONDERING!!!!!! My head hurt..

The paulownia I am using (thanks Ramps) is very soft - very similar to Balsa.. 290kg/m3, so very soft. I did a few test pieces with yellow, white and PVA glues from my glue box, and let dribbles and runs dry rather than cleaning them off... Then I sanded the test pieces, and came to the conclusion that the glue dries harder than the wood. I did know this before hand but I wanted to check how it sanded. I had trouble - real trouble. Getting the runs off with a sharp chisel gouged the wood, using a ROS made divots in the wood, the only way I could get a nice finish was to use a sanding block. I was ready to tear my hair out, so I tried my poly on the strip. I had discounted using poly because of the cost, but the test piece was superb, easy clean up of the foam, and it sanded like a dream. The only drawback was the cure time of four hours.

BACK TO PONDERING. The internet provided the solution,:2tsup: (and I can't remember what it is..:no:. I can't be bothered to go out to my shed right now......) but it is a poly, with a set up time of 1/2 hours, and a clamp time of 1 hour (it is titebond) but at 30 bucks a bottle.. WHEW!!

I kept the tip closed and drilled a 1mm hole through the end, so I did not waste any, and I was good to go.....I set up my compound sliding mitre saw to 45 degrees on my 5 meter bench, set up a fence either side with stops at the correct lengths, and made my first scarf... yeah yeah - I know 45 degs is not much, but you can hardly see them, and they are not load bearing. I used a few straight edges and some spring clamps to clamp them while they dried. I have managed to keep the scarfs random on the boat by cutting a few strips at random lengths, and then mating the random length to a "new" strip, and measuring against the stops to get the correct length. It will make your life sooo much easier if you can get strips the full length
of your boat. Mine were 9 inches too short, and I nearly nearly went for a 14 foot boat to accomodate the length of timber I could get.

The first strip is the most important - it must be screwed to the mould stations, and the screw holes are eventually covered by the gunnells, so don't worry about them. THIS IS A SIGNIFCANT POINT _ ENJOY IT!!

I used some tec screws with oversized heads to allow lots of pressure if needed (it wasn't) WOOHOO

So here are some photo's I bought a heap of electricians tape - and it is dead usefull, I got it from the bargain bits at mitre ten - thats where I got my sawhorses as well and my spring clamps.... cheap is good enought. My small sash clampsI got from bunnings - five bucks for two, and I bought 16 - I had 15, so I now have thirty one, plus about sixty spring clamps and a dozen big sashies (you don't need them all in the end... but I was well prepared!!):;

[Wild Dingo]

Soooo whos a clever dick then?!! :2tsup: Well done Thickone! :2tsup:

Now you were a tad thick werent you with the masking tape idea? really mate thats what we are here for to set you on the right path :; ASK and ye shall be informed :2tsup:

First tip... toss the damned masking tape!! dont go any further until you go get some duct tape!! the 2in blue stuff... holds like buggary and perfect for canoe moulds

Second tip... Titebond is good stuff!! I have no idea what the poly stuff is your on about but Titebond is the go... actually to stick the strips to each other you can simply use the white glue as you will be covering the canoe with epoxy which is a bloody great glue and fibreglass the glue up of the strips only needs to securely hold the strips to its brother.

Third tip... you can put the clamps away... yes you heard me! put the buggars away save them for the big boat build... for a canoe use fishing line to hold the strips to the mould

Let me elaborate... once your first strip is held down with the screws like you say your next and subsequent strips only need to be held to the cove of the preceeding strip and to the mould right? right... so at the stem or the first mould put in a screw say a half inch to inch screw with enough bite that it wont move but with enough screw left out to hold the fishing line... now where you show the moulds having holes cut out you simply wind the fishing line around the strip and through the hole around the strip and through the hole all the way along the strip and with another screw in the other end mould or stem wind it around that and go around the other side exactly the same as the first.

You will end up pulling the strip down to the first strip and to the mould and it will hold there as you tie of and go around the other end... you will have tiny pinprick holes where the line has gone through between the strips but they will not be noticable whatever once youve finished sanding and fiberglassing... to remove the fishing line before fibreglassing its simply a quick run around with a stanly blade a few slashes at the line and a gentle pull and out it comes easy as... BELIEVE ME THIS DOES WORK! is a lot less hassle than clamps and you can simply keep going up the hull to the keel no need to stop and wait for the glue to set up or to clamp up just put the strip to its mate and wind the fishing line around... work smart not hard is a good motto

Fourth tip... think about your paddle NOW! you dont want to have your ubeaut canoe finished and have to use one of those shocking yellow plastic bladed paddles!! You want a wooden one to match your beautiful canoe!!... also like the seat if you are going to do as Ramps did and make one yourself it will give you something to do between jobs on quiet weekends and when the inlaws turn up unexpectantly!

Okay any other questions... PLEASE ASK!!! before you start preferably :doh: :U

But youve got a good start... oh and those bloody mill blokes are a cranky lot eh? shoulda asked about that too! :roll: But... well done!!

[Daddles]

Sheesh. I had a day's stuff planned here but after reading that lot, I'm too exhausted :rolleyes:

She's still looking very nice. Appalling standards your setting there mate.

Mik has paddle plans on his site - go for a dig there and yes, start making them now, they're the sort of thing you can do while waiting for the glue to dry.

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

I must agree daddles appalling standards.. however I do believe it was that shocking young reprobate Ramps who set such standards you know... twas a shocker when he built that canoe I mean the bloke either has a wonderously considerate missus (which having met her Id say thats a pretty good assessment of mine :; ) or doesnt work!! I mean how the hell does a bloke build a canoe in what was it? about a month!! :o rotten sod... here Ive been at it for what? 4 years!!! :doh:

And now we have the thick one goin hell for leather tryin to outdo Ramps's legendary efforts :C

But still I think I will beat them both cause like Ramps ol Thicky wont use the ubeaut fishing line trick as he like ramps wont beleive me... And then I will get my bum up to wherever Ramps got his Pauliwannia from shortly and then using the ubeaut fishing line trick I shall rip them both apart! :2tsup: :q

[Lewy the Fly]

Hi Guys,
You may have seen my thread "the Paulownia Experiment"
I used the same wedging blocks however I found it easier to screw the blocks to the frames and then wedge (after clading half the hull), and in between if the strips needed a little extra squeeze I used 50mm Plastic Tape called Magpie tape which has very low stretch and is reasonably strong. For glue I used Titebond III
and planed the faired the hull wiyh a block plane which was very quick and then sanded it with a Dynabrade sander, Which gave a good surface. The problem with Polyurethane glue is it contains Isosyanate and I would not like to be breathing the sanding Dust.

Regards

Lewy

[bitingmidge]

Lewy,

It's time for an update! (and a summary of how the Paulownia went I reckon!)

Is there any reason why you guys aren't just using PVA (yellow) glue? The strips are going to be completely glass encapsulated so there should never be any moisture on the joins, and the cross-linked PVA is pretty waterproof anyway.

We used it quite successfully in laminating the foils on the PDRacers, and will use it again in similar situations.

cheers,

P

[Thickasaplank]

Evening people...With regard to the glues, I did a heap of experimenting before I chose my glue. Yellow glue, and PVA etc all dry harder than the actual Kiri (paulownia) When I test sanded a few pieces I got a raised ridge at the joins. Now I know that that was because I was not using a block, but I figured that on the inside with concave complex curves, a block is not always going to be practical. I chose the polyeurithane for its ease of work. On the dust issue, I am lucky enough to work in the safety industry , so have some pretty good respiration solutions available to me. I always sand with a mask on regardless...:roll:

Lewy, or anyone, what is a dynabrade sander?? and is it a good option for the hull?:?

In answer to young dingo's remarks with regard the fishing line method... I did give it a dry run on one strip. Once again it left fairly noticeable marks on the cove section of the strips. It pulled through the edges, and if it did not pull cleanly, then it crushed the feather edges for about 1cm each side of the line.... I am not sure how easily the wood would recover from this, so I never carried on with it. I did manage to cook up another method, because, like lewy the fly, I could not get the pressure to pull the strips together using clamps on the wedge forms.. As I drove in the wedge, so the wedging form would lift. With not a whole heap of working time, I found myself in a spot of bother on more than one occasion.:doh:

A few bevy's were sunk trying to get the correct method though... Let me tell you!!!! I will reveal the method as I continue with the journey through to this far.....

By the way, I hail from Roleystone/ Kelmscott, and if anyone would like to pop by, please feel free to PM me, and you will be most welcome.:2tsup:

[Wild Dingo]

Well... that sorta stuffs my suggestion up the khyber pass without a paddle eh! :doh:

That Kiri (Pauliwannia) MUST be dead soft eh?... when I tried it ti didnt mar the surface or pull the edge of the bead down noticably only a pin prick hole was left... anyways no worries!! You got it sussed Thicky one keep at it :2tsup:

And yes its time for an update Lewy :2tsup:

[Ramps]

Thickas good progress

I thought Lewy the Fly was going to respond to your WATFAA que (with a name like that) but alas sounds like he missed it. I do a bit of FF but I'm ambidextrous an do a bit in saltwater as well. Shassie was a means to getting out on all these great rivers down this way ... still haven't tried to FF from Shassie but the beginning of the new season will get here soon enough and if this rain keeps up there might be water actually flowing down the rivers this year.

Anyway back to canoe building. I just used PVA for my strips. Worked a treat. Planes very well with a sharp block plane. If you think you have troubles sanding pva wait til you get couple of dribbles of the pox thru to the inside before you've faired the inside. As far as fairing the inside, why not plane that too ... I did, you just need to modify the plane a bit (described how I did that) and it was only a $40 plane ... I know it'll come in useful again some day. A Nice sharp and flexible cabinet scraper also worth it's weight in gold.

I used poly for my paddles but I would keep well clear of it for all the strips ... do you where carbon filter while gluing up as well? How tedious! I enjoyed the relaxing action of wondering out after work, bare foot, no special clothing, no gloves, plonk a strip or two on, go in for dinner, wash hands with soap and water (poly on hands yuk... stains for days). But you go for it, I went against the flow with the rolling bevel rather than B&C and I went with poly for the paddles instead of the pox (which I even like less than poly) and a few other things but they suited me and I don't know even now if I'd change things looking back.

I'll take you up on the visit to Rolleystone when I'm up that way some time.

Oh by the way I found the cheapest and easiest clamps too....


They're called staples :oo: :D :D

Keep up the good work Thickas. Meet you on Serpentine Dam ... if we're allowed to canoe on it??

[Ramps]

That Kiri (Pauliwannia) MUST be dead soft eh?... when I tried it ti didnt mar the surface or pull the edge of the bead down noticably only a pin prick hole was left... anyways no worries!!

Dingo ... most us don't try to build out of TUART :no: :D :D :D

[Wild Dingo]

Dingo ... most us don't try to build out of TUART

:harhar: :eheheh:


Oh and Ramps? you know you were saying you couldnt get Jarrah to do the stems?...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df25b3127cce9b83648e8a7900000016108AZMnLNy2ctL

Jarrah strips for the INNER stem of the bow!!


ooh and Ramps?

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df25b3127cce9b8364830b4400000015108AZMnLNy2ctL


And something else?

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dd24b3127cce9b837af98a0100000016108AZMnLNy2ctL

Notice the inner stem mate?? mmmm?? yep Jarrah... easy as too... just boil some water pour into a bowl get tee towels soak said tee towels in said boiling water lay said tee towels over Jarrah strips keep going till said strips are soft enough to bend around form bend said strips around form putting more boiling water soaked tee towels over said jarrah strips over said forms until they sit flat to each other take tee towels off said jarrah strips and glue said strips to each other and clamp to form... easy as!! :bowblue:

Do not take any notice whatever of the stuff that appears to be masking tape as this was taken prior to getting the info on the fishing line and well prior to taking said canoe apart and into garden of old place... I tried to find the damned imagestation or shutterfly album I created where Id got it almost done using the fishing line method when I realized that Tuart is a rather heavy wood and shouldnt really be used for a canoe... just ignore it and believe this...

:rule:

[Lewy the Fly]

Dynabrade is a brand of random orbit sander air operated with dust extraction. No I dont sell them and there are other brands dynabrade seems to have become the generic name for that type of sander.

As for the glues and ease of sanding I found that the Titebond III set harder than other PVA's which tend to be a little rubbery, however I still found that the glue was harder and I did get slight ridging on the glue lines, but when I gave it a sealer coat of resin and then another sand it came up smick. That was not the only reason for using Titebond III, it is water proof and the use of water resistant just didnt ring true with me.

By the way on the progress side of things with my boat, my brother has arrive for the Sanctuary Cove boat show, he's an expert fiberglasser (into vacuum invusion) so guess whos doing the final skin on the outside. I've done one layer to the water line and now theres a second layer over the
top of that and a single layer on the top sides. All 287gsm. By the way I think it was Ramps had a problem getting wide cloth. The place to go is COLAN theyre on the net and in Sydney. Great service and advice I got 287gsn Cloth 1550mm wide.

Regards

Lewy

[Ramps]

Dingo
I'll have to send you some of my 80yr old matured in a Perth home roof recycled type Jarrah and I'll see if you can work you magic with that. ... Mine had a week of soaking and didn't even look wet. By the way Dingo by the look of the date on that stem mould the glue is probably dry by now :U And they look like mighty wide strips there Dingo or is just cos it's a WEE lassie?
Thanks Lewy but I ended up being looked after by Duck Flat ... they're closer :D but they were the closest suppliers of 1.5m cloth that I could find. I think It was a Colan product anyway? Oh for an expert FG'er brother ... hang on I don't even have a brother!

[Wild Dingo]

Look Ramps... IT WAS TUART!! :doh: You get one go at that stuff before the tools go blunt the swearing turns purple and you loose all control... so its run through the saw straight through the router and done!!... measure? who had time for measuring??

As to the Jarrah... at least you know how old your Jarrah is! that stuff is gawd alone knows how old it was just a peice of recycled jarrah Id scored somewhere or other... the strips were thin!! well less that 1/4in

Anyways mate for what its worth? You win!! yours is done an in the water... mines back to just the moulds and the building board :C and if it was me with that sheoak Id have used it as well... but the missus wanted coffee table side tables clocks and such other nonsence out of the bit I had :roll:

[Thickasaplank]

thanks for the replies and stuff.. Where is the photo of your scarf joint ramps??

I spent a few hours on the canoe on Sat - and it was quite hard work.. just as well this is not a warts and all expose' or you would know all my mistakes...
After I screwed the first strips on, I was going like the clappers an hour each side - about 15 mins to remove the clamps, and about 45 to glue and clamp back up. Then ten mins to do three scarf joints, then the other side. I managed seven strips the first day, and then another six on the second..(Damn lawn, trees and gutters!!):(

I spent a whole day doing a feature strip, I used some red ceder that I stripped down to three mils, I ran a strip through the table saw and split it into three length ways. Then I put the ceder strips into the middle, and it looked great. I set it up, and glued it. It never glued very well, and left some unrecoverable gaps along the length.......it turned into firewood pretty quick, but I lost a whole day. I decided not to have a feature strip after that, and concentrated on the canoe.

I think the feature strip came up quicker than I thought and I never had much time to plan it. Most people would just throw on a darker strip, but I wanted mine to be special.... never allowed enough time for it to be special. After the amount of time I had spent on setup, once I was stripping I did not want to stop....

PLAN YOUR FEATURE STRIP. Decide on it and if it needs to be made, make it while you are setting up, and getting bored.

[Thickasaplank]

I told you that I could not get on with the clamping system, so I spent a lot of time in th evenings researching how else to do it. You may all know this method, but I came up with a few personalisations of my own.:2tsup:

I bought 17 meters of bungy cord - 0.5m per station. I used my bradder to nail the bungy cord to the inside of the mould, and used some cord tied to the moulds to restrain it. The coves on the wood have been protected by 6mm dowells and it has worked great. Really,,,I can now put two strips on an hour. I have been clamping the stems and sterns, but the bungy cords have been a dream. Have a look at the pictures below and it will explain it all - a picture paints a thousand words eh......:roll:

[Thickasaplank]

SO WHADDAYA THINK EH....

KUDO'S AND HERO WORSHIP WELCOMED:U

:2tsup: This is nearly up to date now.... A few more pics, and we are nearly there now. I am nearly closing the football, but with fishing this long weekend, I am not sure when I will get a chance to do much more... Then there is the deck (110 sq meters) and pool blah blah.. SO it may be a while...

I will keep you all informed though.. BTW thanks for the contact for the cloth lewy..

Cheers for the mo..

Bradders

[Wild Dingo]

Bungy rope fishin line same diff :roll: :q ... an now you say you got fishing this weekend I now know your reluctance to use fishin line :;

Coming along well thuck one :U

[Boatmik]

Howdy all,

Based on my experience, thus not "TRUTH"

Staples
I don't like them though haven't tried the plastic kind.

The reason I don't like them is they leave a plethora of little holes that are always visible. Because there end up being so many and you can't line them up I think it doesn't look as neat. Question of taste.

I like the method they use at duck flat - a two flat headed thin gauge nail with a small piece of "electrician's spagetti" threaded on. Line up the holes and it looks neat. The plastic bears down on the timber in a very even way and simultaneously holds the nail heads above the surface of the timber for easy extraction.

I've seen people use a PVA tube as well.

You just cut up the plastic into 6mm pieces and sit in front of the TV one night threading away.

The thing about the nails is that they have awesome pulling power - so the strips stay put. There is very little need for further taping and pulling.

Paulownia
is very soft but from conversations with people - by the time it is glassed there is little difference between it and WRC. That comes from an NZ dude that uses his paulownia sea kayak for rocky surf landings and all sorts of horrors. In other words you can damage both of them but there is little practical difference once the glass goes on. Before then the Paulownia is very easy to dent.

Dents can be pulled out by brushing some water on them - a trick I used with my balsa planked canoe - that works nicely on other low density timbers as well

MIK

[Ramps]

Sorry about the pics of the scarf joint thickas, I got a bit side tracked and been away all week til now. So I'll try again this w/e.
Looking good by the way.
Where's the outing for the w/e? I have to christen a new 3 wt rod, though I might have a try at some redfin from the canoe ... weather looks fantasic.

[Thickasaplank]

G'day ramps... we will be setting out from rose cottage in Pemby. I will be there from about eleven tomorrow till monday - come on down.. Fished two weeks ago and got twenty odd fish in a weekend.:2tsup:

[Ramps]

Thickas
Thanks for the offer (nice and close too) but I think the family is due a w/e all together ... been away a bit of late and not even 2 w/e's ago I managed to extend a work trip in Tassy to spent a day with my cousin on great lake.
I think a canoodle down the Collie with a picnic lunch ... Sunday could be a day on the estuary (maybe a flattie or two out there too)... hmm :2tsup:

[bitingmidge]

Gunwhale scarf on the Eureka. The other one was much too invisible to photograph! :D

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47544&d=1180943113

[STEPHEN MILLER]

Looks great midge but who drew the pencil line on your nice timber work:D

[Ramps]

Why do I always think about these things when I'm at the computer of an evening and not in the middle of one of these beautiful days. So I just took the camera out and took a few pics. The attached pic shows my worse scarf joint (inadequate clamping) (white box) and one the more typical joints (blue box).

Don't cheat see if you can pick them both with and without my boxes to show you where they are.

[BobL]

Why do I always think about these things when I'm at the computer of an evening and not in the middle of one of these beautiful days. So I just took the camera out and took a few pics. The attached pic shows my worse scarf joint (inadequate clamping) (white box) and one the more typical joints (blue box).

Don't cheat see if you can pick them both with and without my boxes to show you where they are.

Hi ramps, just got my head out of the milling forums and wandered over here to see what you chaps are up to :) - I don't care if you think its crummy that's really impressive joinery with that sheoak - have a greenie!:2tsup:

[Boatmik]

Just for newbies building Eurekas, Midges scarf joint is not up to specification.

The minimum length of scarf that makes sense is a 6:1 - it approaches the strength of the rest of the timber.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/scarf%20join.jpg

On a lightly loaded boat like the canoe Midge may get away with it, but on the other hand a knock at some stage may well break that scarf.

You also have to be careful with gluing the end grain. If you don't use something like the following method there is some chance that the join will end up being dry because the resin (or glue) is sucked up by the absorbent end grain.

Gluing Endgrain
When gluing endgrain with epoxy it is a two stage process.
Mix enough resin and hardener to do the job. Stir well. Brush the mixed epoxy onto the endgrain.
Wait 5 minutes - brush more epoxy on the endgrain. Now add the high strength gluing powder to the epoxy in the container and apply to gluing surfaces.
And hold in place by normal method until the epoxy sets up.

[bitingmidge]

OOPS! :-

I did mention 6:1 on the other thread... but might have failed to mention that I did err....well I erred on the slope on this one!

I have since fixed my scarfing jig!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[jmk89]

OOPS! :-

I did mention 6:1 on the other thread... but might have failed to mention that I did err....well I erred on the slope on this one!

I have since fixed my scarfing jig!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

Midge

Is your scarfing jig the thing you called 'quick and dirty' that you knocked up while building the PDRs, as detailed here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=270829&highlight=scarfing+jig#post270829)?

If you have an even better scarfing jig, please let us have a look at it....

Jeremy

[bitingmidge]

Yep, that's the one, and the picture actually shows it cutting at the wrong (brain fade) angle. I actually moved it over, and recut all the mast scarves after that shot as I recall!

That may or may not have happened after Mik inspected 'em and had kittens! :p

Again, note that I have stoppers on the thing to prevent finger-like substances hitting the blade, and (usually) hold the bits on the jig with a clamp as well.

Cheers,

P

[Ramps]

Hi ramps, just got my head out of the milling forums and wandered over here to see what you chaps are up to :) - I don't care if you think its crummy that's really impressive joinery with that sheoak - have a greenie!:2tsup:

Whoa Bob, I didn't put it up for praise (but I'll accept the greenie with thanks :B ) I put it up so as thickas could see that the impact of a scarf joint (cut at the correct angle of course Mik ... BTW mine was 1:8 I hope that passses ... just hand planed) and it wasn't worth the many headaches of attempting to find a 6m length of sheoak ... which will be quite a challenge.

[Boatmik]

k ... BTW mine was 1:8 I hope that passses ... just hand planed) and it wasn't worth the many headaches of attempting to find a 6m length of sheoak ... which will be quite a challenge.

Absolutely fine. Generally people move to longer scarfs when the loads are high or the part critical and that it is required to be self supporting. Sometimes I go longer when I feel the material is a bit dodgy too.

MIK

[Thickasaplank]

Well after a very successful fishing weekend, and then a weekend in the garden and then time on the house etc, I managed a bit of time on the old boat... More akin to working on a battleship or a cruiser... If you thought that the frames looked big, you should see the worried looks on SWMBO's face as it started filling out....It is a bit big eh!!!! Say Ramps... did you expect yours to be as big as it was or were you a bit surprised??

When we last spoke, I had not given any thought to paddles, or anything other than my super clamping method, which is still a super clamping method by the way!!

The paddles subject has taken up a large amount of time, and I finally found that the average size of a blade is 24 inches. I had a close look at MIK's plans (thanks MIK) and took what I needed in the way of dimensions. I was after a carved paddle, so I took a trip out to Ranger Camping, and had alook at there paddles, and then got home, and went shopping I have decided on a handle of 10mm tassie oak, laminated on a 30mm piece of Jarrah, and then two nice pink bits of meranti on the sides. I glued them up and used a huge amount of clamps to make sure the glue joints were going to be spot on. I guess if you are carving wood, and it is glued then there can be nothing worse than having a void in the joint...

Once I had the timber glued up, I spent some time establishing what shape I wanted. I was tempted to go for a standard beavertail, but the ottertail looked pretty sweet as well, so I made a hybrid pattern, and traced it onto the blank. I cut the blank and left it aside as per info on the net.

Most of the guys on the net recommend roughly shaping the paddle, then leaving it hanging for a while to ease out all the warps etc. then when you shape it you know what you are working with...

[Thickasaplank]

The work on the paddle left me in a good frame of mind to continue the stripping of the hull. I have been able to work on one side of the boat, and then once I have completed the clamping of that side, the opposite side is dry enough to remove the bungy's and start again. This gives me a turnaround of about 35 mins per strip. I reckon it would be about 45 if you take in mucking around and tripping over cr@p on the floor etc..In the beginning I was making scarf joins on a jig I made, however at 45 degrees, these broke more often than not as I was maneuvering the strip into place. As I got more comfortable with the process, I was happy to just cut 45's on the two ends, and join the scarfs as I planked the hull. It takes a bit of prep, and usually I scarfed on a mould, so one of the bungy's was pressing down on the actual join. This ensured good adhesion. This was not a problem toward the middle of the boat as the spring in the wood created enough tension on the joint. One thing to watch out for is the squeeze out of the glue fills the cove, and has to be removed before the next strip is laid down - ask me how I know... I got a clout nail with a 6mm head, and sharpened the head, and used that to scrape out the cove and ensure a good contour for the next one.:2tsup:

[Thickasaplank]

As you can see in the last photo of my last reply, things were getting a bit tight at the stems. The strips were now twisting a full 90 degrees, laying flat, and then twisting vertical again to attach to the stems. This is where it pays to be a little more diligent in the prep phase. The stems have not been faired correctly, and this has caused me a LOT of trouble. I chose this design because it has tapered stems, but in the write up on the greenvalley site, Martin Step hints that the tapered stems are pretty hard to do. In hindsight I would not do tapered stems again. To taper a stem vertacally, and fair it in with the lines of the boat as well is a difficult thing to do - and while I have done it... it is not as good as I would have liked. the stems now required clamping, and due to this, I was unable to work as quickly as before, because the glue had to be 100% cured before I could de-clamp, and do the strip on the other side. I guess I could do about one strip every two hours. This left me with time to start the sanding process on the side that was not drying. I also trimmed down the strips that went over the stems, and work in the garden... All in all a frustrating time.

This was the case from the start of the bend in the stem until I had completely covered the stem and was starting to close the football. I spent some time on the paddle, but not much at this stage. What I found was very useful here were the tie down straps that I had bought from bunnings. When you get around the curve of the moulds, using the bungy's, the hull pulls away from the moulds by a few mm (up to 5 I would say) This means that as you start closing the sides together, you can use the straps, and, because there is a little give in the sides, the strap will pull in the sides and give a better contact between the edges of the strips.

[Thickasaplank]

When I could see the home straight with regard to the hull I really started to get excited. The lines of the canoe are really quite beautiful, and I think this will be one of my more "prouderer" projects (you all know what I mean...:rolleyes:)

I followed the recommendations on the greenvalley website, and filled the one side of the football first. once I was over the halfway line, I stretched a line down the centreline, and drew a line exactly central. I slowly worked my way down with a Japanese pull saw, and was quite surprised with the result. Look, it was not perfect, but it was not too bad. I used a l9ong sanding block, and a surform plane to clean it up a bit more, and that was that. I will be honest here, it was not as straight as I would have wanted, but it was a difficult area to work on. I am 6'4" and I was on tippy toes. So any shorties out there, be very careful of the height your strongback is set. It is not bad when you set up the moulds, but when you have to lean over a completed hull, things get a little more stretchy. If I had made my strongback lower by four inches, the gunwale would have been uncomfortably low..... so who knows the best solution? Maybe a variable height strongback??

[Thickasaplank]

Last Sunday was the day. Yup... this was it... the day the ball would be closed come hell or high water!!!

My wife was helping the neighbors in the garden, and the kids were bored....so they came by to help. It was great having a couple of enthusiastic kids around. They were keen to do anything, from sanding, to helping carve the paddle. The closing of bottom proved to be a real pain. Each strip had to be shaped to fit snugly to the opposite strip, trying to keep everything in line. The tie down strap helped here as well. Some of the final cuts on the strip (20mm wide) were 150mm long, tapering down to nothing. Coupled with the fact that I had no spare strips, and at this late stage was scarfing strips to make the 600 long, and picking up offcuts from the floor... well you can imagine.

At six o'clock SWMBO came back as I was just about to fit the last strip. Curt and Mitch waited around till the last strip was gently tapped home before the final photo.... It was done the hull was complete.

I woyuld rekon, that to this stage I have spent somewhere in the region of 160 hours on the canoe, and would expect to be somewhere nearing halfway. I have another day on it tomorrow, and am starting to think of a name..... any ideas??

I will be back soon, thanks for joining me in my ramblings.....

Bradders

[Ramps]

Bradders
Great to see
It's definitely a milestone ... that completed stripping stage.
After you have given it a sanding it's hard to keep your hands of the product ... the shape and the feel are almost sensual.

Yeah I remember that feeling of "Oh ????? that is big ... I do hope I can transport it on the top of the car" and the Redbird is two foot longer than the Mattawa!

Looks like you have done very well with the straight line down the keel line, I didn't trust myself with that method and I was very happy with the infill method that I ended up doing ... and would do the same again ... I found I liked the look and not difficult to do but then again I didn't bead and cove.

Good work, your's should be good for the beginning of summer ... mine didn't get there til mid summer. :2tsup:

I'll be watching closely, good pics and good commentary

[Thickasaplank]

Just stopped in to say peel ply is a major PITA :((......I have never used it, and it is too late to get advice now... better get out there and make the best of what may be a baaaaad situation!!!!:(

More later.

[Lewy the Fly]

What went wrong with the peel ply. What grade did you use the heavy or the light. The light on is the hardest to use. When you get it right it sure makes sand and filling easy.
Best thing since sliced bread.

Regards

Lewy

[Ramps]

Bradders
how did you get on with your f/g purchase
If you still want to call feel free ... I'm in tonight and tomorrow night

[Thickasaplank]

Well here i write and say that the perfect finish i was hoping for on my canoe is no longer possible. I used peel ply without proper instruction, and have come out with an almighty mess. I have salvaged it to the best of my humble ability, but I dearly wish that I had never seen the stuff!!! Lewy, I used the light grade, and it made ripples all along the length of the canoe. I have sanded them down while the layer of resin is still green, and put on another coat, but I now have tiger stripes on the hull.:( Note to self.... LISTEN TO THE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD DAMMIT!!!!!!!

I could have taken it off before the cure last night, but kept on in the hope that it would come good...

Anyhoo, I have many pics to add to detail my journey thus far, and will add them as and when.


Cheers all, from a decidedly dejected Brad:no:

[Lewy the Fly]

Brad,
Thats exactly the problem I have experienced, fortunatley where it didnt matter. I used the heavier grade on the outside of my hull guide by my brother who manages a vacuum infusion factory in NZ.

Regards

Lewy

[Hoppoz]

Well here i write and say that the perfect finish i was hoping for on my canoe is no longer possible. I used peel ply without proper instruction, and have come out with an almighty mess.:

Forgive my ignorance but what is peel ply?

I ask as I'm about to embark on building a strip kayak (Guillimot Expedition)

PS the rest of this thread has been most informative, I hope to return the favour when my project kicks off.

Thanks

Hoppoz

[Wild Dingo]

Sooooo Bradders wheres the pics mate??? ANYTHING CAN HAVE A POSITIVE SPIN MATE... give us a gander betcha I can find something GREAT about it!! :2tsup:

A tiger stripped canoe??? FRIGGIN AWESOME!!! man the only one in captivity and me ol mate Bradders has it? YOU BLOODY LITTLE RIPPER!! :2tsup:

So come on when can we go for a paddle mate? HUH?? HUH???

Come on Bradders me ol china dont give up yet... give us a chance to show some positive affermation an inspiration and help you pick yerself up outta the doldrums and get stuck into your now UNIQUE canoe!! :2tsup:

Dont worry about the peal ply thing mate I have no idea meself... but then Id just use propa ply meself... but hey thats just me some fellas gotta be fancy pants about everythin use special gear nob it up you know... but me Id just have used ply meself :;

Cheers
Shane

[Thickasaplank]

Well I have been decidedly tardy in my continuing of this thread. I have managed to salvage the canoe from the dreaded tiger stripes, and will fill in the details soon, I would just like to answer the question on peel ply. peel ply is a nylon cloth that is placed over the wetted out fiberglass cloth. It serves two major purposes in that if used properly, it will greatly reduce the need to sand, as it smoothes the surface. I have used it on flat surfaces recently and am happy with the result. the second, and in some instances the most important, is the fact that the peel ply, when removed leaves a microscopically rough surface, devoid of any shine. this surface is perfect for the subsequent bonding of secondary layers of cloth with no need to sand the surface. If any of you ever build a kit aeroplane, many parts that are prefabricated will have peel ply on them. This will be removed just before the piece is bonded resulting in a strong and efficient bond. I found that the compound curve of the hull is not conducive to the use of peel ply. I hope this helps.

I will be in touch sooooooon:2tsup:

[Hoppoz]

Thanks for the info on Peel Ply, I suspected that it may have had somthing to do with the glassing, but have learnt the hard way to never assume, as it only makes an Ass u & me or more specifically ME!

Sounds like you have some sanding ahead of you, I look fwd to seeing your next up date.

On my project I have just selected a number of 6m lenghts of WRC that should get delivered next week, now I have to work out the best way to turn it into strips.

Hoppoz

[Dry Water]

Hey Thickasaplank
Wot's happened to the thread. It can't be all over! It's too interesting! I'm about to embark on a new boat strip plank project and would love to know where yoy're at with the Paulownia canoe.
Rgds
Dry Water

[Ramps]

ere ere I agree ....

c'mon thickas ... do the Oz day thing and get in the spirits ... let us know how you're going
:2tsup:

[Thickasaplank]

I have just installed the seats on the canoe. I have been very steadily whittling away the list of things that needed to be don, but I have just been so very busy at work and home, that I have not updated the site......I will post photos soon, and I thank all who had input in the build.. It has been a long time in coming, and to be quite honest I am glad it is complete. Almost exactly one year to the day after the original planned completion date!!

Will be back soon, just going to sit in the shed and admire my work....

Bradders:2tsup:

[Thickasaplank]

Just to prove that it actually does float, here are the pics from Sunday. The biggest problem was that it did not fit on the roof racks very well. The trip to work on Monday was horrendous. I have had a cover made for it to keep the spiders and kreepy crawleys out when it is not being used, hence the trip to work...The cover looks pretty schmicko as well, so all in all I am one happy camper.

I must admit that I lost enthusiasm part way through, and the final finish was a chore. When you take on a large build, you go through various stages, and when the original enthusiasm wanes, it turns into a hard slog!! Having said that, the small goals that you achieve along the way make you happy!! Completing the project has been fantastic and I would recommend it to everyone.

If anyone is thinking of building a canoe, feel free to give me a pm, and I will do my best to point you in the right direction.

Cheers to all and I will keep you posted.:D

Oh and forgive the dodgy Mo - it is Movember after all !!!

[honkongphoie]

that's absolutely stunning, it was worth all the effort you put into her

[Ramps]

Great one Thickas

Some more close up pics pls

... we might have to get together now we're both afloat.
Looks great, they get lots of comments both on the water and off

I think the secret to remaining enthusiastic on a big build is to do it fast :U

Cheers mate
See you on the water