NSW parents your kids need help

[Grue]

The NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the following tools from school's industrial arts workshops:

List of prohibited items:

angle grinder, disc> 100mm
automotive pit
belt sander (portable powered) >75mm belt
chain block/block and tackle
combination woodworking machines
foundry equipment
grinder (fixed), fitted with wire brushes
GTA (TIG) welding
jointer (planer)
nail/stapling machine, staple > 20mm
power plane (portable powered)
powered sheetmetal machines
router, radial arm
router, table (fixed)
saw, radial arm
saw, circular (portable powered)
saw, drop and slide
spindle moulder

Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.

Look at the list above and work out how many of these tools you first used at school and how many are going to be denied to your children.

Please write to your local school / local member and voice your disgust. Those of you from other states, its your turn next so please write too.

Just think how hard it will be for teachers to teach "building & construction" to year 11 / 12 kids without these tools.

Need determined support please.

Grue

:mad: :mad:

[JohnM]

I agree that it is a loss to education if these items are banned from schools, however I suspect that the reason is the current sue-the-b...s culture, which is making the cost of insurance impossible, and the OH&S issues a complete nightmare.

Maybe there is room for a campaign for some sense to be brought into the laws relating to responsibility, and maybe even make people take some responsibility for their own actions rather than sue someone else.

As a self employed engineer I am fast being put out of business by the cost of insurance, and many others are in the same boat.

However, I must get off my soapbox before someone falls over it and sues me.

[julianx]

Grue

I think the list you posted is far to short the following tools should be added

hand saws ( if you try really hard I recon you could cut ya arm off with one of them)

hammers
hand planes
folding rulers ( they can give you nasty pinch if you open them the wrong way)

chisels
pencils (them things will have your eye out if your not carefull)
rulers
rubbers ( a teacher threw one at me once, it hurt like hell)

pencil sharpeners (that will stop the pencils from being so dangerous)

In fact I think we should dress our children in full body armour and have the class rooms turned into padded cells. that way they won't learn any thing usefull, will grow up to be completly incompetent idiots and have to become insurance sales people which by then will be the only growth industry.

But seriously I think the "sue the bastards" culture we are becoming is terrible, industrial accidents happen for a reason, they're part of the natural selection process ie they're natures way of removing idiots from our society.

[coastie]

Its all because of the Workcover rules about unguarded machinery etc etc
The local woodcraft group I belong to meets in the local High school Manual arts room,boy some of the work these guys are turning out is fabulous.
The detail in the work is fantastic,we had a demo day up there on the weekend and their major works were out on display,there was an entertainment unit I have followed being built month by month and the finished product is fantastic, outmatches any store built thing but is twice the quality if I were the guy that built it I would put a price tag of at least $5000 on it.built by a fourteen year old.
Scroll saw work that one of our guys who consistently wins first prizes for his work,says ran rings around his, done by a thirteen year old girl who is going on to uni to do industrial design.
Gave all us older guys great heart to see that the next generation is not letting traditional craftmanship die.

[Grue]

Great posting coastie,

Gee its great to read that some communities work with their local schools. I wish more people were given the opportunity to see the work kids do at school and take such an interest in it.

Those of you who went to the Sydney Wood show in June may have seen some of the student's work on display. Fantastic stuff.

The point I was making is that these restrictions about to be placed on us are going to severely limit teachers capacity to teach the skills kids need to be competative in the job market.

At the end of last year, I had an 18 year old student that held a miniature brass steam engine in his hand, and lovingly looking at it said "gee I'm proud of this". He'd obviously never ever said that about anything he'd ever made before, and you all know the feeling. He's now got something better to do than ripping off your car.

It's not about safety, its about the fear of getting sued. They don't ban sports because kids get hurt, and there's a lot more hurt (and Killed) in sport, than there is in the IA workshop. Its also about money! They don't want to buy new machines.

If you had a shop with $300.000 worth of machines you'd put away $30,000 a year to replace them. The Department's budget = $0.

About time the politicians got their priorities right!

Grue.

[journeyman Mick]

This is the sort of thinking that breeds useless, litigious idiots that think that the world "owes" them. Obviously when you take away all possible threats to safety, then you are not teaching kids how to assess the safety of any operation or situation and how to respond to safety issues. Message: "You are precious and must be wrapped in cotton wool and not exposed to any potentially dangerous situation, the world owes it to you to be totally safe and non-threatening, if anything happens to you it's not your fault, you aren't required to take any responsibility for your safety."
Grue, I don't know how you can cope working in such a large bureaucratic juggernaut which can come up with such policies. I started a Bachelor of Vocational Education a while back as I would love to pass on the skills that I have acquired over the years, but after my second teaching prac. I realised I could not work as part of a huge, cumbersome and frankly stupid bureaucracy.

Mick

[DavidW]

Couldn't agree more Mick, I live in QLD and as yet we haven't gone down this road but it may come. It makes me more determined to acquire quality gear and develop skills that I can pass on to my kids.

What is NSW going to do about filling apprenticeship positions in years to come? They may have to import kids from states that are not so short sighted. There are enough kids coming out of our High school and University systems, full of PC crap and ill equiped for the real world as it is.

Ok getting off my soap box now.

[Shane Watson]

Geez the only electrical machine we had at highschool was a lathe......& I didn't turn out too bad in the skills department. Although funnily enough - well those that know me know I own a symtec.. Mwahahahha.... ;)

[Simple]

You've got to love the way julianx put it.

"Accidents are natures way of removing idiots from our society."

That one got a good giggle.

[Wood Borer]

Wood dust is dangerous so why not ban wood from the woodwork course?

The students could watch videos and use a woodwork simulator on a PC to gain their skills.

Coastie, good to hear about the younger people doing the woodwork. Do you meet at a High School in Nowra?

- Wood Borer

[Little Festo]

I'm afraid it's a sign of the times we are living in, I don't think that it's just bureaucracy. The good old U.S.of A. with all of it's litergating lawers have changed most of this and it' has come here too.

My wife, a teacher, just afew days ago had a run in with a parent after a child had an accident on some play equipment. The equipment has been inspected regularly with OHP and safty but the parent "fell out of her tree" ranting and raving about the potential danger children were subjected by playing on it. It was just an accident where the child slipped and fell (from not too great a height - .5 meter).

She was considering removing the equipment, thus denieghing many other children the pleasure of using it. She had OHP come again to inspect the equipment and again they passed it as being safe. She could very easily have opted to remove the "offending equipment" to ensure that she didn't have to face a unreasonable parent verbally abusing her ever again but she opted to leave the equipment in place as she could see that the positve benefits for the children would ffar outweight any negatives - one child hurting themselves every 10 years. This shows that in these cases much of the pressure to "sanitise" the enviroment at schools comes from parents and it's not necessarily just a bureaucratic decision, there is a legal question involved where someone, a parent or gardian could/will sue or subject teaching staff to abuse. A teacher cannot tell a parent to get stuffed and be sensible without inflaming the situation and landing themselves and the school in further trouble.

So I suppose that a room full of woodworking equipment could become a potential minefield. I stress that I do think that it is a shame that kids in NSW schools will not be taught how to use this equipment and I am dissapointed that that is the case - people need to be more responsible for their own actions.

Ah well, done a bit of spleen venting.

Hope this makes some sense - Peter

[Sir Stinkalot]

On a brighter note ..... I am sure that there will be great second hand machinery hitting the market soon for all of the weekend warriors :D

Sorry Stinky

[Wood Borer]

And all the second hand gear will have not many people trained in how to use safely! I guess there will be a smaller pool of bidders and therefore better bargains.

So whose responsibility is it if someone who has completed a course in woodwork injures themselves on a piece of equipment they haven't been safely trained on? I am talking about general equipment such as a saw.

Maybe it is the responsibility of the Dept of Education to train people and if they have an accident due to lack of training then the Dept wears the cost.

Imagine a Driving School taking a similar attitude - showed them a couple of videos on how to drive but didn't put them in a car in case they became injured in an accident.

BTW Cyclones were not banned which should keep WD happy.

- Wood Borer

[John G]

I'm not sure I agree.
When I did woodworking at school it was all hand tools. What Grammar school did you all go to??? We sure as hell didn't have angle grinders, radial arm routers, nail guns or spindle moulders! We had one table saw (that the teacher operated) and one router table (that the teacher operated).

I think there's a lot more value (and satisfaction) learning how to cut dovetails, mortices and tenons by hand than using routers and jigs. I can't imagine any school project you would be building that would require a student to use a radial arm saw. Teach them to use a chisel or handsaw!

Mind you, this was years 8-10, not sure what we would have done in years 11-12.

With regards to writing to your school or local member, I don't think it's their fault. It's not even the student's fault. It's the parents (and that means most of us!). Unfortunately, and I don't know why it is, but somewhere along the way, we lost our sense of responsibility and duty, and we now expect everyone else to look after our kids, except ourselves! Maybe people find it so hard to make ends meet these days, that litigation and cash payouts are seen as legitimate sources of income!

As a result, I don't think the schools have much choice. I agree it's very sad, but until the whole issue of compensation payouts is resolved, this will happen to woodwork classes, school fairs (remember the donkey or tractor rides), and all sorts of community activities. (I hope no one on this BB is a lawyer)

[Sir Stinkalot]

Originally posted by John G
When I did woodworking at school it was all hand tools. What Grammar school did you all go to??? We sure as hell didn't have angle grinders, radial arm routers, nail guns or spindle moulders! We had one table saw (that the teacher operated) and one router table (that the teacher operated).


I went to a technical (read school with lots of farmers) school and did woodwork from years 7-9 (unfortunately 10-12 was all advanced science and maths :( ). The only machiney that we were allowed near was a lathe and a disk sander ..... come to think of it I think the disk sander was taken away as the children didn't cut the stock to size before sanding ... they just let the sander do the work.

No real easy answer to this one .... you really have to use the tool to be able to do so safely .... are the kid in years 7-10 to irresponsible to be trusted around power tools these days?

Ahhh ..... the good old days.

[Wood Borer]

I had a similar Education to Stinky except at a High School in the bush. I was one of those farmers - hicks - hayseeds but a city slicker now.

We had a bandsaw, table saw, two lathes, router and a drill. Only the lathes and the drill were used by the students.

Most injuries happened to the townies on handsaws and chisels.

Our son went to a High School and didn't even do woodwork! Our daughter did 12 months of woodwork at a State Girls Secondary College.

Strange though, it is only our daughter that asks me to make things from wood, our son just buys junk stuff.

- Wood Borer

[journeyman Mick]

The reason that power tools and pneumatic nailers are being used is that the courses being taught are aligned to the competency based training that TAFEs are offering. Thus if a student fulfills all the requirements of their course in, say, furnishings they will go into a cabinetmaking apprenticeship having already completed the equivalent to their first year's TAFE training, which will hopefully make them more employable.

As for JulianX's quote, it reminds me of an editorial I had pinned to my noticeboard for years. It was by an American columnist and I picked it up as reported in my local rag. Written partly tongue in cheek, it was one of the more sensible things my local paper has published, it went along the lines of:

People everywhere today are trying to make the world a safer place, but they're wrong, what we need today are accidents, and lots of them. Accidents are nature's way of ensuring the survival of the fittest. What we are doing when we try to make the world a safer place is ensuring that the species continue as a bunch of useless idiots.....etc etc etc.

A bit confronting for some, but I can see his point and I think it was written just after some woman in the US successfully sued Mcdonalds because she was burnt when a cup of hot coffee was spilt on her (by herself I think).

It's a big bad world out there folks and while we should all ensure that we (within reason) make it as safe as possible there's just no protecting some people from their own stupidity. And the trouble is of course, that by mollycoddling our youth instead of equipping them to deal with and solve problems, we are teaching them that it's their right to expect that "THEY" (as in the government or big business or their parents or at any rate someone else) will look after them. We are breeding a nation of idiots.

Right, I'll stop my tyranicall rant now.:)

Mick

[Wild Dingo]

mmmmmmmm... now not to be a bane of contention... but... cyclones SHOULD be banned! dangerous mongrel things they are!:rolleyes:

as for school shops... here Im only 46 fellers and left any sort of school system before it really began but the wood shop at the "school" only had hand tools to learn on... one lathe and a table saw the damned teacher hogged and wouldnt let the kids touch... "only adults can use these things you want it cut tell me or do it with the hand saw!" and some of the best chippies and wood workers Ive ever known came out of those sorts of classes!

Now onto todays wood classes... son 16 is in year 11 at high school and the class has 12 kids in it... small enough for a fair whack of one on one you would think eh?... so one kid just one of the blighters takes it into his pathetic dropkick mind to simply grab the power plane when the teacher was yarnin with the others and plug it in and blast away at nothing in particular... took of a huge slice of sons arm along with other various injuries to a couple of other nearby kids and a deep cut in the nearby bench top before the pathetic excuse of a teacher made any move to stop him and then only cause someone heeped abuse on him and made him do something!!... s

orry but some of these kids should simply NEVER get near power tools! NEVER!... I and another teacher who I was talking to about another of my kids {Im not a teacher either by the way} happened to be passing the room as Aaron {son} came tearing out blood everywhere and then all hell broke loose as the rest of the kids tore from the room... the bloody dipstick of a flamin teacher was standing at the blackboard just lookin at this idiot kid with the plane still buzzin in his hands!! between the teaher and I who were passings we got the thing turned off and out of his hands... apparently the end excuse was that he was ADHA and hadnt taken his meds and also had eaten take aways supplied by his equally brightspark dipstick of a parent!!! bloody kids an idiot just like his father... but the teacher! a total dickhead who shouldnt be in charge of a dunny let alone a bunch of kids in a manual arts class!!... and yeah hes still the manual arts teacher but Ive taken Aaron out of the class and will teach him anything he needs or wants to know about woodworking and to hell with the school!

My view is the teacher should be able to teach them right the first time with hand tools... till they have it totally soaked into their mushy brain packets the whole scenario of safety... and shouldnt be allowed near a wood working tool a second before!... if they dont have it inside their heads they dont bloody touch anything! or if the teachers not capable of teaching safety FIRST FOREMOST AND UTMOST then not at bloody all and the teacher should be put to teachin something else entirely.

okay get off the damned soapbox Shane before someone shoves it out from under you and kicks yer on their way past :eek:

End result? take the damned tools off them and teach the buggars SAFETY!! then hand tools :cool: sorry but seein a son with a huge slice out of his arm just doesnt make me comfortable with kids with power tools

[coastie]

Woodborer:
No we meet at the Kiama High School(1200 pupils)not bad for a town of only 12000 people.

[Grue]

Thanks for the spirited debate,

Message of congratulations to some of the posters

According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s or even the early 80s, probably shouldn't have survived.

Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint.

We had no childproof lids or locks on medicine bottles, doors, or cabinets, and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets. . .not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.

As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags. Riding in the back of a ute on a warm day was always a special treat.

We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. Horrors!

We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were not significantly overweight because we were always outside playing.

We shared one soft drink among four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No cell phones. Unthinkable!

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms.

We had friends! We went outside and found them.

We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would really hurt.

We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. They were accidents. No one was to blame but us. Remember accidents?

We had fights and punched each other and got black and blue and learned to get over it.

We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, we did not put out any eyes.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them.

Junior sport had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment.

Some students weren't as smart as others, so they failed a grade and were held back to repeat the same grade. Horrors!

Tests were not adjusted for any reason.

Our actions were our own. Consequences were expected.

The idea of parents bailing us out if we got in trouble in school or broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the school or the law. Imagine that!

This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers, and inventors, ever. We had freedom, failure, success, and responsibility-and we learned how to deal with it.

And, you're one of them. . .CONGRATULATIONS!

[Sturdee]

Hear Hear,

Peter

[Chesand]

Couldn't agree more - from one who was educated in the late 40's and early 50's
We have allowed our kids to become soft with TV etc

[Fantapantz]

Blame the students,parents, teachers and the school principals... Not all of course, but a few of each and the entire system is stuffed up. Students with a poor safety attitude are often allowed to stay in a workshop for various reasons. Three notables are:
1
The teacher doesn't watch them carefully enough or give detentions 'to emphasize safety', hence me reprimanding students not in my control.
2
The principal has NO IDEA about risks and thinks a workshop is just another classroom. TAFE has a 14 student limit per class doing the same thing. I have 20 students in several of my senior classes. And whats it like when you have 6 on Oxy welders, 2 on Arc welders, 2 on MIG welders, 1 on the bandsaw, 2 on table routers, 2 on wood lathes, 1 on the morticer, and the rest working with hand tools??????? Is it easy to keep an eye on all of them?
3
Parents complain their behinds off when their sweet little child gets in trouble, because "they would never do anything bad, and they said they didn't do it'.

If the government wants workshops to be safe they need to limit class numbers and allow teachers to exclude students from workshops more easily.

Perhaps I'm a stickler, but I reckon those 120 detentions I've given this year for placing a chisel on the side of the bench instead of in the well have done wonders to student attitude.

[Wood Borer]

I am not sure if it has changed much but when I went to school (1960's) "the smarter ones" were encouraged to do maths and science.

The "impractical and not so bright" did humanities

The "practical and smart" did woodwork and metalwork

Those who were just "plain dumb and impractical" were a problem so they were pushed into the woodwork and metalwork classes. Couldn't have them in "real classes" just get them out of sight into the woodwork/metalwork areas.

What an explosive combination, the dumb and impractical using all the dangerous tools. They also severely restricted those who were doing woodwork and metalwork intentionally.

Who channelled students into these areas? The "impractical and not so bright" after they became teachers! Especially the ones who were shocking teachers so became senior staff making decisions who goes into what classes.

Unfortunately woodwork and metalwork were not taken seriously by the Department back then and interest and emphasis seems to have dwindled since.

The crazy kids aren't suitable for maths or english classes because they are disruptive. Perhaps they should be dealt with by a psychologist to address their problem. Not shoved into woodwork or metalwork to disrupt, cause accidents and distract the teacher.

Look at Wild Dingo's example. who placed the nutty kid on medication into such a class? There are probably places for such kids but it sure isn't in the woodwork class. Send him to the English Literature class - and let him prove the theory of the pen being mightier than the sword.

Kids like that are most likely not able to concentrate in either subject so why always shove them off to the woodwork class.

People purchasing quality woodwork might be under the impression the pieces were made by disruptive half wits on medication based on their experience from school.


- Wood Borer

PS I did Maths and Science but I wasn't allowed into the woodwork room in years 11 and 12.

Making up for it now though.

[Fantapantz]

Same happens today. About one in five should be in a senior workshop, the rest wanna bludge. As an example in certificate I furnishing all of our tests are seen. The students are given the exact exam and I go through the answers with them, they sit the tests two weeks later. The pass mark is 75%...........1 in 5 students actually pass the tests. Hows that for dedication........ There more interested in working at Mc Donalds.

[colh]

Who'd be a teacher? (I'm not, but SWMBO is - Design and Technology in a middle class private girls' high school).

Society wants schools to sort out their kids problems instead of the parents having to stay home and do it;

Parents reckon they know more about how a school should run than the teachers do, but wouldn't ever become teachers themselves;

All teachers are either: pedophiles, bludgers who are only in it for the holidays, or dills who couldn't get get into law, medicine, accountancy or management studies at uni;

Male teachers in particular cannot be trusted;

Every parent's child is a perfect angel who would never be disruptive, lie or cheat, and no parent would ever consider doing their child's project for them;

Kids are kept on at school when they should be out working, because the big employers of the past don't take on juniors anymore, and the Govt doesn't want them on the unemployment list;

Any time a kid who is old enought to accept responsibility for him/herself does something stupid, it's someone else's fault

etc ....

There are clearly a few teachers contributing to this thread - I salute you

Colin

[DaveInOz]

2 points to raise -

1/ as recently as the mid 80's I was told I wasn't allowed to do woodwork because that was for students that couldn't handle a full maths science load, it still happens

2/ this is not unique to this generation, each one has had its share of overprotective stupidity. i.e. the people that banned Noddy books are now 50+y/o !

[Fantapantz]

This sums up some of my students, this was a student having a conversation with me a week or so ago.

Student: Haven't had a shave hey sir?
Teacher: Nah made a choice this morning. Shave and be late for work, or don't shave and be on time.
Student: Oh. Where do you work?