Show off your sharpening tools

[Wongo]

It is time for another one. :D

There are mine. A Tormek, a couple of diamond plates, water stones and natural stones, diamond files and a Veritas sharpening jig.

Now I use the Tormek for most of the sharpening but I still use the Veritas jig for all my Veritas planes.

The Tormek costed me a little bit but it is great to be able to sharpen the jointer and thincknesser blades all the time.

[Wongo]

We all love sharpening and we all have a set of sharpening tools. How many water stones do you have?:cool:

This is thread is about sharpening so I am expecting > 10 pages.:D

[silentC]

I've got three waterstones, some cheap diamond plates, three sharpening jigs, a bench grinder and a horizontal grinder I made.

I'm going to start one on drill bits :p

[Ross]

A bench grinder, a large sheet of thick glass and sheets of various grades of wet and dry papers. Oh and a can of spray glue to make it work.

Ross

[underused]

G'day:D

Grinder and makita wet sharpener
diamond plate, five waterstones
veritas honing jig, and one for japanese blades.
veritas scraper sharpening set
one of those long float glass thingies
honing compound, leather pad,mdf strip
angle gauge, and gauge for setting jointer blades
cheers

[rodp]

I brought a jig at the Bris ww show not cheap but best thing since sliced bread.
lets you sharpen tool upside down with tool fixed. You move diamond / stone / sandpaper etc. Even does scrub plane blade perfect.
Sharpening is now no longer a frustrating science every tool at right ( my right ) angle every time. Can just throw chisel on mid job with ease.
will take pics and post
rod

[rsser]

Bin full of worn wet and dry doesn't make much of a pic.

For plane irons and chisels, what would be an economical step up from 'scary sharp'? Got a grinder for shaping, so a couple of waterstones?

[Peter57]

3 sheets of glass and a heap of wet and dry - again not much to look at. Almost forgot, a hairless left forearm from checking how sharp my chisels are. If they don't shave they aint sharp enough.

[Des.K.]

Three Shaptons (2K, 5K and 8K), three Kings (800, 1,200, 6K - only use the 1,200 occasionally since getting the Shaptons), Shapton's Kubo diamond reference lapping plate (awesome beast), Veritas Mk1 sharpening jig (no longer used), pump pressure container, and an old battered bucket. Also a Ryobi 8" grinder.

All my sharpening is done on the garage floor on two blocks of wood.

Des

[Woodlee]

I have as follows
8"makita bench grinder with a carbatec angle plate
6" makita bench grinder
sheet of hardened glass (side window from a Toyota troopie)
lots of different grades of wet and dry paper and crocus cloth
Five or six caborundum stones ,different sizes and grades
a couple of slip stones
one round double sided axe stone
two washita stones
one leather straight razor strop
bald left forearm

[Howdya do that]

Thanks to some very good advice from DC. I have 800, 1200, 6,000 King waterstones, Veritas MKII honing guide, a piece of 10mm plate glass and plasterers sanding mesh. My chisels will shave the hair off the dogs tail without waking her.

I guess at some point I will need a grinder but cant decide which.

[munruben]

I brought a jig at the Bris ww show not cheap but best thing since sliced bread.
Sharpening is now no longer a frustrating science every tool at right ( my right ) angle every time. Can just throw chisel on mid job with ease.
will take pics and post
rod
Look forward to seeing that Rod,

[derekcohen]

I like to keep sharpening as simple as possible because I really hate it so. But, in my eforts to develop an efficient system, I have tried just about all methods. At the end of the day I have three separate systems, which does not take into account the alternative systems (when I get bored or want to experiment as I am curious as well as lazy).

System 1

For bevel down planes and most chisels (excluding mortice, Japanese and lathe), I grind a hollow on the blade using a 6" high speed grinder.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Dovetailchiseljig-settingupgrinder.jpg

I set the bevel angle using the Tormek jig as grinding is followed by freehand honing on waterstones. Until recently I was using King 800, 1200 and 8000. I am now using Shapton 1000, 5000 and 8000. The Shaptons are ceramic-based and required just a little water as lubricant. They remain flat very long.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/For%20Sale/Shaptonnocracks.jpg

I will keep them flat with a DMT coarse diamond stone (this is being delivered - they are that new). At present I use a 240 grit belt on glass. This has the advantage of being washable so that grit is not cross contaminated.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shaptonlappingboard1.jpg

System 2

For bevel up planes (where a microbevel is used to create the cutting angle) and Japanese chisels (where the bevel face is flat), I grind on a belt sander (search for details):


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/beltsander.jpg

This is used with a Tormek-type blade holder, but I have also recently been using a honing guide directly on the turning belt:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Grindingachisel1.jpg

The next step for plane blades is a Veritas honing guide (MkII) on waterstones to create a microbevel. Here I am honing a fine camber for a smoother.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/camberingstraight.jpg

For Japanese chisels I just freehand on waterstones.

System 3

This is the use of a disk sander for honing lathe chisels. If I need to grind I use a 80 or 120 grit disk. Honing on a 240 grit disk is usually enough for most wood. Occasionally I add a leather strop with Veritas green rouge (.5 microns).

[derekcohen]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Honinglathechisel.jpg

Other

These include a hard felt wheel with Veritas green rouge (see grinder above)...

Diamond pastes of 40, 10, 1, and 0.5 microns used on Jarrah scrap

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Diamond%20paste/Diamondpaste2.jpg

... a leather strop with Veritas rouge, and another used plain.



http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Diamond%20paste/Diamondpaste3.jpg

... and card scrapers need files and burnishers:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shavings.jpg


Did you last through that?!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rsser]

For turning tools I use the tool straight off either an 80 grit white wheel with a Sorby fingernail profile jig or an 80 grit pink wheel with a platform. Plus occasional slipstone or diamond coated rod polishing of the flute with cheap gouges.

Anything finer than that won't last seconds on Aussie hardwoods.

[Toolin Around]

For turning tools I use the tool straight off either an 80 grit white wheel with a Sorby fingernail profile jig or an 80 grit pink wheel with a platform. Plus occasional slipstone or diamond coated rod polishing of the flute with cheap gouges.

Anything finer than that won't last seconds on Aussie hardwoods.

I'm sure I'm the last one you want to see responding to what you said... My response in another thread was regretfully harsh.

I pay a lot of attention to what you and other say but am at a loss to know why this would be the case when you say anything more wont last 5 seconds... I haven't turned a lot of Aussie timbers (gidgee, rosewood, blue gum, red gum, kwila, and a few I have no idea what they were is about it) but for the life of me I have never seen a situation where a purely ground edge was ever better than a honed and or buffed edge in any situation. In the past 25 years I must have heard it said a few hundred times... but when I test the theory it falls far short - so what am I missing (your probably thinking I'm just pulling your chain but I actually to have a desire to know)

[derekcohen]

For turning tools I use the tool straight off either an 80 grit white wheel with a Sorby fingernail profile jig or an 80 grit pink wheel with a platform. .... Anything finer than that won't last seconds on Aussie hardwoods.

Hi Ern, like TA I am very puzzled by this statement. It just does not make sense.

An edge ground to coarse 80 grit is going to be much weaker than one ground to a fine edge (in my case 240 grit). With a coarse edge there are so many more serrations and, thus, so many more places for the edge/steel to fracture. This is why a fine edge on a plane blade, say one honed to 8000 grit, will hold its edge longer than one that is coarsely ground, say to 1200 grit.

With lathe chisels one does not require anything near the smooth edges of a plane blade, but the smoother (=sharper) the edge the longer it will endure. And on hard, abrasive timbers this just becomes even more evident.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[TomH]

Derek,

I am about to invest in some better sharpening gear. At present I have a linisher & grinder for harsh nicks, one oilstone (norton) and also complement this by some scary sharp. I have been reading about waterstones and also the shapton stones, and note that a number of people have commented about the shaptons but they do not seem as common as the waterstones. Given that I am unlikely to afford both options, I take it that you prefer the shaptons over the waterstones?

Cheers,

Tom

[derekcohen]

Hi Tom

I have only had the Shaptons (Professional version) for about a month, so am not really in a position to make vaste statements.

At the end of the day the King or Norton waterstones will get blades as sharp as the Shaptons. But ...

The Shaptons have a very hard surface. They wear slowly and maintain a flatness much, much longer than a King/Norton waterstone. I could get through a whole session without flattening the stones once where I would have had to do so several times with my Kings.

The hard surface is less forgiving for the novice but provides more feedback for the more experienced. I like this since my preference is to freehand blades.

The Shaptons require just a little water - a spritz - to work, while the Kings/Nortons need to be soaked and kept quite wet, so get messy. They come in little cases, which make storage easy. All-in-all, they are a more compact and cleaner system.

The downside of the Shaptons is the cost. You need to factor in a coarse diamond stone for flattening these stones. I have a DMT (duo coarse/very coarse) coming from the States, where the cost is half that from Carba-tec (where they want $299). This is still a lot less than the Shapton flattening plate! The cost of the three Shaptons I have (1000, 5000 and 8000) from the USA is abour $220 USD (excluding shipping costs). Keep in mind that mine are the Professional version. There is a cheaper, thinner version available from LN Australia. Or try Soataz on the Japanese Tools forum.

The Kings are better value-for-money. Their cost is about a quarter of the Shaptons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Des.K.]

If I can add my 2.2 cents worth to Derek's $20 reply. I've had my Shaptons now for almost 12 months (bought in Japan), and they are great, but they are definitely different animals from the King and other stones. All my sharpening is freehand, and I've found the touch required is much lighter than for the other stones. To me, Shaptons can be a little "grabby" if you approach them with too heavy a hand. If you use a jig, the feel is probably the same (not sure).

They are certainly harder, but I still give them a quick flattening run over the diamond reference plate each time I use them. That way I know the stones are flat every time. I bought my flattening reference plate in Japan, and although expensive, it certainly has been worth the money.

But as Derek said, at the end of the day, sharp is sharp, and it doesn't really matter how you get there. In that respect, Kings work just as well as Shaptons.

Des

[rsser]

Re sharpening turning tools I don't have any theory, just some experience and rec'ns from other turners.

I started using a 120 grit wheel on all my tools and then stepped down to 80 noticing no difference in the durability of the edge. Turners like Darlow recommend 36 grit; ditto or 60 grit for Raffan. I'm not aware of any aussie pro turner who recommends fine honing. The practice in the US is different however.

As for theory, maybe it has to do with the hard life a turning tool edge gets ... heat, rapid abrasion and pounding, vibration etc.

... PS Between grinds I do touch up parting tools and scrapers with a fine diamond hone to refresh the edge. The finish is finer than that from the grinder but it doesn't last as long. Leaves me wondering about the role the burr plays - but then I use beading and parting tools in peel mode so I don't know.

[rsser]

PPS Here's some theory and data that suggest my experience isn't generalisable:

http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/sharpen.pdf

[Toolin Around]

PPS Here's some theory and data that suggest my experience isn't generalisable:

http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/sharpen.pdf


I gotta disagree this article has little if anything to say about honing or not to, though it does mention it. The focus of that part of the article is whether heat will cause premature wear or not even though he did hone the dry ground chisel.

I don't think anyone has actually tried to do a comprehensive test as to which would last longer. For the most part I don't think anyone has ever really cared. I only know it works better is because at the end of a day of turning I had more product finished and felt less tired when I cleaned up the edge of the tool.

The trap I think all turners have fallen into is that a person(s) that is well respected in the turning world has said there is no reason to hone and or buff the edge and that it's a waste of time... No one questions it because after all they're turning masters right. So the myth perpetuates... I don't mean this in any sort of egotistical or ill mannered way... But if my name were David Ells... or John Jor... (no disrespect intended) and said this you would have all changed how you sharpened your tools. But because I'm a no named somewhat socially retarded guy who posts every once in awhile I must be talking shyte. And lets be honest... when I said I could grind much faster at 100rpm than you could at 3000rpm all but one of ya thought that. The only reason one agreed with it was because english was his seocnd language and he completely missunderstood what I was saying.


Today for no better reason I thought I'd give it a go with some junk wood laying around and demonstrate what I've always seen in the past. My test consisted of using a piece of old painted fencing that was laying around (wasn't wasting good wood on this!). Felt good and hard and with the paint and dirt it should be fairly hard on the gouge

First pic. Grinder I used 80 grit wheel and cloth wheel with white buffing compound. Didn't want to use my rig, wanted to make sure the results could be duplicated by anyone else who had nothing better to do. Though the article you posted did establish one thing. My slow speed grinder goes along way to improving the edge holding ability of my chisels because it significantly reduces heat build up. Can anyone see a possibly real stupid mistake in the making in this pic... Tell ya at the end if you don't see it.

Second. Sharpness and how to test for it is a subjective thing. What you consider sharp maybe far more than what I think is and vise versa. I view sharpness in a different way - I call productive sharpness. I think for the most part every turner will agree that if a tool is producing more dust than clean shavings it's dull - hence it's no longer productive to keep going with such a dull tool. That was the bench mark I used. This pic shows a ground an unbuffed edge on a roughing gouge with the shavings it produced in the beginning. I purposely didn't roll the gouge but kept it cutting in one spot to hasten the dulling that would take place.

Third pic is what I was describing above. The gouge is now only producing dust.

Forth pic. Is how much material I was able to remove before I was only producing dust.

Go to next post for results of buffed edge.

The rag in the first pic is a disaster waiting to happen... If that got caught up in the buffing wheel... I did remove it before I started the grinder - I did honest!

[Toolin Around]

Part two the buffed Roughing gouge.

I mounted a new stick that was cut from the same 4x2 as the first test piece.

Pic one is the what the reground and buffed roughing gouge was producing at the beginning.

Pic two is what the gouge was producing at the end.

Pic three shows how far I got.


I was able to complete the roughing and the gouge still had a usably sharp edge.

If you're skeptical then the best thing is to try it yourself.

[rsser]

I gotta disagree this article has little if anything to say about honing or not to, though it does mention it. The focus of that part of the article is whether heat will cause premature wear or not even though he did hone the dry ground chisel.

I don't think anyone has actually tried to do a comprehensive test as to which would last longer.

I applaud your putting the issue to a test.

If you'd read the article you'dve seen that Lyn M quotes a comparative test, though gives no reference or link, that he finds shows clearly that fine grinding on a Tormek v. rough on a dry wheel produces a more durable edge. I assume that the Tormek works like a hone to produce a finer edge.

He doesn't specify all the variables in that test. What woods? What tool presentation? What tools? What pace of work?

However, after reading it I'm left wondering.

But your 'reasonably sharp' doesn't cut it for me ... pardon the pun.

My contribution, FWIW, was mainly about my everyday experience. My modest honing efforts just give me a bit of extra time by avoiding adjusting the grinder setup. Whenever I have a tough timber like Brushbox or redgum end-grain hollowing I don't waste my time with honing.

[weisyboy]

i bought a heligrind at the woodworking show last year for sharpening my turning chisels it is in my opinion the best jig for the job as it is on a cam so it slides up and down the stone (the proper way) like they teach at tafe and not accros it like most of the other jigs do and it comes with all the attachments to sharpen every chisel in your set and some that haven't been invented yet.

[DJ’s Timber]

Can anyone see a possibly real stupid mistake in the making in this pic... Tell ya at the end if you don't see it.



I can see 2, rag sitting under the cloth wheel and the lead should be trailing out the back not the front

[Toolin Around]

I can see 2, rag sitting under the cloth wheel and the lead should be trailing out the back not the front


Ya know that would explain the tingling in the bare feet everytime I turned the grinder on.

[scooter]

Interesting post Matt.

Hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of doing a quick level adjust on your pics & reposted below.


Cheers...........Sean

[derekcohen]

Ern

With respect, I would say that you have either misread Lyn's article, or misunderstood what he is getting at.

I have known and corresponded with Lyn for many years and discussed these very issues, so I do not need to read the article to know what he is going to say. But I did read it and it just confirmed my earlier comments about a durable edge being one that is honed on higher grits. Lyn refers to this as a "refined edge" in the article.

Earlier I wrote: "With a coarse edge there are so many more serrations and, thus, so many more places for the edge/steel to fracture". If you re-read the article, you will see that Lyn has the exact same conclusion.

The widely spaced coarser V’s are going to heat more quickly, and will break down more quickly. This is in part why a “sharper edge” (which might be better called a finer edge) will actually be longer lasting than a coarser edge. (Lyn Mangialmeli)

The other point raised i the article that I will emphasise was “Don’t Grind the Tool, Dress the Bevel.”. In other words, use a coarse medium if you plan to remove much metal when shapng a bevel. However, when honing, all you need to do is hone the edge. This is why my use of the disk sander for lathe chisels suits me well. But TA's use of a buffing wheel is similar. Both these methods aim just to dress the bevel. In literally 1 or 2 secongs I have an edge (on flat and curved edges) that you could shave with.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Honinglathechisel.jpg

This is done freehand, as you can see. It is a skill that is quickly picked up. A steady hand and just tickle the bevel.

Just so the point is not misunderstood, this issue here is not about the method of honing - do it freehand or use a jig ..... whatever floats your boat - the issue is about grinding verses honing and the resultant durability of edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rsser]

I'm not arguing with the theory Derek, and my ref to the test Lyn quotes supports your position. Honing by whatever means (and that test used a Tormek) produces smaller more regular v's to use Lyn's term with their attendant advantages.

But there are clearly a number of variables at play.

My point was that with the kind of bevels, tools, woods and objects I work with, when I hone the edge with a fine diamond hone I get less time eg. getting nice pig tails out of a bowl than when the tool is fresh off the grinder.

So something else is in the mix. What do you think that might be?

[Groggy]

My point was that with the kind of bevels, tools, woods and objects I work with, when I hone the edge with a fine diamond hone I get less time eg. getting nice pig tails out of a bowl than when the tool is fresh off the grinder.

So something else is in the mix. What do you think that might be?Caution, wild theories follow:

Theory one. Maybe heat can be a factor. As the tips of a VVVVVV heat up the very tip overheats, breaks and exposes fresh metal. With a vvvvvvvv setup the temper is lost evenly across the tip but doesn't break, instead, it goes blunt ~~~~~~~.

Theory two. The edge behaves more like a toothed blade in a plane.

I wonder if anyone has compared the life of the edge of a normal plane blade to that of a toothed blade?

Ern, is this effect more noticeable on wet material?

[Toolin Around]

Caution, wild theories follow:

Theory one. Maybe heat can be a factor. As the tips of a VVVVVV heat up the very tip overheats, breaks and exposes fresh metal. With a vvvvvvvv setup the temper is lost evenly across the tip but doesn't break, instead, it goes blunt ~~~~~~~.

Theory two. The edge behaves more like a toothed blade in a plane.

I wonder if anyone has compared the life of the edge of a normal plane blade to that of a toothed blade?

Ern, is this effect more noticeable on wet material?


You brought up a great point.

Wet wood is a pleasure to turn just because of the 10' shavings you can arc off the lathe that cover everything like snow. If you can crank up the speed you can get pretty good distance also. And no matter what you do: grind and go or grind, hone and go the edge lasts forever. For me in turning, turning wet wood is a 10/10 on the giggle scale - especially when the cat comes in and ya shoot the shaving at him. Dogs are boring they'll lay there till ya bury them.

[rsser]

Groggy, I don't turn enough green wood to have the same level of comparative experience under my belt.

Another variable I mentioned earlier was the burr. What role does it play? Perhaps it links to your point - when it breaks off fresh edges may be exposed.

Certainly end-grain hollowing in redgum and the like works with a good burr over maybe 2 to 3 passes say 3" deep with a bedan. I gave up honing to extend the life.

Another factor is that I've been honing a tool off the grinder that's been dulled in use, which is clearly different from honing one fresh off the grinder.

And maybe another factor is the bevel angle. Compare a 30 degree skew bevel angle with a 50 degree bowl gouge. The V's are obviously 3D so what effect does a deeper base to the V have? Better heat transmission so reduced heating at the tip? Greater strength?

[derekcohen]

Another variable I mentioned earlier was the burr. What role does it play? Perhaps it links to your point - when it breaks off fresh edges may be exposed.

Ern, other than a burr that is deliberately rolled on a scraper, the presence of a burr on a blade edge will be to shorten the life of that edge. It is a weak area and will break off. When it breaks off, the edge that is left behind is jagged. Jagged edges are weak.


And maybe another factor is the bevel angle. Compare a 30 degree skew bevel angle with a 50 degree bowl gouge. The V's are obviously 3D so what effect does a deeper base to the V have? Better heat transmission so reduced heating at the tip? Greater strength?

A higher bevel angle will increase the scraping action (verses a cutting action). It should last longer (all other factors held constant). However, I would not rush out and grind all your chisels at high angles since this will limit their "sharpness".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rsser]

Thanks for the inputs Derek.

Maybe you've hit on one of the key variables: scraping v cutting. I'd guess that a lot of my turning even with gouges is with min bevel rubbing. On small diameters you have little clearance angle otherwise.

As I noted earlier a scraper with a burr does better in dense wood endgrain hollowing than one without. It's driven home to me every time I do a pencil jar or lidded box. Yes, I have to grind it after every few passes, but a honed edge just produces dust and heat, not shavings. Yes, I know the theory is that the burr is ripped off immediately .... but I do what works :shrug: Maybe Groggy is right ... in some applications a new ragged edge works better. Len Smith once advised me to use a burr on all tools on medium density woods but not on the ends of the continuum. I can imagine it pulling fibres out of soft woods and I'm not sure what he found with the other end of the continuum. [Edit: sorry, the advice was re scraping tools.]

Whatever the case, faceplate and some spindle work is brutal on tools compared with planing or chiselling. Hence HSS in most tools these days.

As for grinding angles mine are all close to standard. I like a slightly longer bevel on scrapers. Never tried a rolled edge on one and reports on their performance have been mixed. Negative rake has attracted some attention lately and I might give that a go. Haven't tried a dual bevel on a bowl gouge as Schtoo has demonstrated, nor a ground back heel but I can see their advantages. These days I incline to cup or hook cutters for hollowing.

[Added: why would a rolled edge be an ambiguous advantage? I imagine because essentially it's a peel cut but without much of a guiding bevel.

Why does honing not otherwise interest a gear freak? :- A crude opposition is this: a Tormek v a fifteen buck bit of McJing M2. I know Lyn M referred to the cost-benefit ratio in his piece but he didn't take into account the hours I'd have to work to buy a Tormek or the fact that as a full-time worker and part-time turner anything that keeps me away from making shavings is an irritant. My executor can sweat over how short the blades are on my tools when I'm gone.

I'll try to find a copy of the Farrance test though since I hope I'm not too old to learn :no:

And on reflection, why can I get a silkly smooth finish on hardwood with a TS iron in a fettled plane but still have bulk sanding to do on a bowl? I don't think my turning technique is that bad. Something to do with grain changing orientation umpteen times a second? Dunno.

Do note my earlier point that we're essentially comparing oranges and apples - my 'apple' is 'grinding, using and touching up with a hone', diff. from your grinding (only when nec. of course) then honing immediately.

[rsser]

Started to read Lee's 'Bible' and came across this:

'a reasonable definition of sharpness should include not only the keeness of the edge but also the suitability of the shape of the edge considering both the nature of the steel and the intended use of the tool'. p. 4

[rat52]

That definition just opens up the debate all over again.

If what you do works for you then just do it.

[TomH]

Thanks for the replies re: the merits of the shapton stones. No way I can justify the stones + the cost of the diamond flattening stone, so I think I'll just be going with the King stones. Me thinks the woodwork show on Saturday might be the place to get em!!

Cheers,

Tom

[rsser]

That definition just opens up the debate all over again.

If what you do works for you then just do it.

Can't see what's wrong with a debate, if that's what this has been.

For those interested in the conversation, switch to http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=50832

I've learned a lot from Derek and Toolin's contributions ... they've tested my thinking and got me reading other folks'.

[Frank&Earnest]

It has taken me a bit of time to land here, but this has been an interesting debate.

First, qualification of the source: I only know how to sharpen well drill bits by hand, because it is a skill that I learnt early in life.

Everything else, I have dabbled with for a long time but never really mastered. Too little practice too far apart. Theory by itself never goes too far, I am afraid.

So, this is what I have understood here: corrections, please.

- Derek theory is sound. I got the impression that the divergence with Ern has quite a bit to do with semantics, though: when does a "grinding" become a "honing"? at 200 grit or 2000? If the only difference is that Ern "grinds" for 1 minute at 80 grit every, say, 10 minutes and Dereck "hones" on the disk sander for 20 seconds at 240 grit every, say, 5 minutes, does not the point become rather moot? In doubt I would go Derek's way, but if the parameters are about these it is a bit of dispute about goat's hair. (Does anybody still use this expression?)

If the issue is spending a lot of time with the slipstone, however, I would go with Ern. The professional turner who taught me recently did say that the burr needs to be removed, excepting scrapers, but suggested a quick pass on the 80 grit 6" wheel and a quick pass on the slipstone to achieve the best ratio between time at the grinder and time at the lathe. Given that turners that still earn a living turning wood forty hours a week must be rather rare these days, I tend to believe him.

This said, what about sharpening what really needs sharpening, carving tools? I find strange that nobody here has mentioned fabric wheels and aluminium oxide paste, the way I was taught to do it 30 years ago and carvers in Adelaide still use.

[derekcohen]

I got the impression that the divergence with Ern has quite a bit to do with semantics

F&E

The difference between "grinding" and "honing" is not one of semantics. Indeed, it is the very essence of the discussion to date.

To grind is to remove a significant amount of metal with the aim of shaping the edge (e.g. shaping a bevel). To do this use a grinder with a coarse wheel. This edge will essentially "tear" wood fibres.

To hone is to remove as little metal as possible since one is merely refining the edge (e.g. sharpening the bevel). To do this use a fine grit (my 240 grit disk sander) to polish the edge. This edge will essentially slice wood fibres.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rsser]

Yes indeed (added: re semantics).

F&E, the Farrance article is worth a read. PM me your email address if you want a copy.

It compares dry grinding and slipstone honing with wet grinding and honing, using a gouge and spindle turning as the test. Wet grinding meant more and longer cutting.

It didn't look at tools with different bevel geometry or at other applications.

[Frank&Earnest]

My apologies for not making myself clearer, Derek, but you missed my point. I know the definition of grinding and honing, I'm not that ignorant :rolleyes: The point I was making is that if you call 240 grit honing the difference with grinding is not that relevant.

[derekcohen]

The point I was making is that if you call 240 grit honing the difference with grinding is not that relevant.

This is an interesting issue, and my opinion may be met with some resistance.

If you were using 80 grit and 240 grit as sandpaper, with the media stuck to a glass surface, then I would agree with you - both are "grinding".

However, when the media is moving, then I would consider the "grit-equivalence" to be a factor of 5 times the rated grit. In other words, a 80 grit wheel becomes 400 grit and a 240 grit disk becomes the equivalent of 1200 grit.

Compare the scratch patterns on stationary and moving for yourself. The 240 grit disk will polish a bevel. You will only see very fine scratches. I get a mirror surface with 600 grit on a disk sander. 80 grit on a grinder leaves very obvious scratches, as does 400 grit sandpaper stuck to glass. That is still grinding.

Just my observations.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rsser]

Just to head off in a different direction and at the risk of boring folks ... when thinking about bench tools v lathe tools, sharpening modes and the finish they leave, I asked myself what on the lathe do I do that leaves anything like the finish you get after using a well-fettled plane on hardwood? And what might that tell me?

The answer is external bowl turning, bevel rubbing and cutting edge at a shear angle. I get a kind of burnished finish. It doesn't glow like a planed piece of timber but neither is there visible grain tearing that drives you nuts with bowl hollowing.

This is with dry ground unhoned gouges.

What does it tell me? Nothing definite. The angle of the flute to the work is 45-50 degrees ... about the York pitch on a plane? (Maybe subtract 10-15 degrees for the shear angle.) Is it cranky grain? Sure is - changes direction many times a second, from end grain to with the grain as the bowl rotates.

[Frank&Earnest]

OK, Derek, let's sort out the semantics, then.:)

1. The comparison is not between "stationary" and "moving", it is between movements at different speed. In the case of stationary sandpaper it is the tool that moves.

2. While the effect of movement in minimising scratches by overlapping is evident, to say that speed increases "grit equivalence" is misleading. Think of sanding a spindle on the lathe: the speed is equivalent to that of the disk sander, but if you don't move the sandpaper you will still see scratches proportional to the grit.

3. There is still the issue of how long the piece of string is, i.e. what amount of removed metal qualifies the operation as grinding or honing. If the comparison is between 80 grit and 240 grit at the same speed, I had already agreed with you that I would go 240 for the reasons you aptly stated. If the comparison is 240 grit on the sander to 1200 on the glass, the amount of metal you remove with one method is so much bigger than the other that they should not be both called "honing".

[Frank&Earnest]

My apologies for the unedited rushed post above - my beloved was prodding me in the ribs because we had to go out. And sorry for squeezing you in Ern, I am a slow typist and you got in before I finished... As a pure uneducated guess: aren't you answering your own question with the word "burnishing"? does not that indicate friction with an essentially blunt surface, i.e bevel rubbing?

And to everybody: still silence on buffing with Al oxide paste. Any comments?

[rsser]

Nice to hear the SO referred to as something other than SWMBO ;-}

I've learned to leapfrog in online conversations with my kids F&E. Not a problem.

To your question, yes, so ... ? Do you mean a rough surface created by the cutting edge is flattened by the bevel? Could be. Could check by leaving it for a day to see if the fibres stand up.

[Frank&Earnest]

Nice to hear the SO referred to as something other than SWMBO ;-}



Well, IMHO those who use that expression are either a) wimps, b) liers or c) mildly sarcastic. My version of c) was to point out the inconsistency of prodding with the desire to be loved...:D

[rsser]

Hmm, not an uncommon inconsistency.

If it could be pointed out to me I prob. wouldn't suffer from it ..?