flat battery problem [Archive]

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Jedo_03

16th June 2007, 10:45 PM

got a Hilux diesel - dual battery - brand new secondary battery - cold morning and the bugger would hardly start... so charged her up until the charger said "fully charged"\green light... next morning... Rrrrhh... Rrrh... just started...
What you think...
duff primary battery... buy a newie...
what's the chances I have a short or a leak or a discharge somewhere in the circuit\system that's draining the batteries overnight...
How in the heck would I test for that...
help me from walking to work...
cheers
Jedo

Barry_White

16th June 2007, 10:59 PM

Jedo

Sounds like a job for a good auto electrician.

Big Shed

16th June 2007, 10:59 PM

Honorary Bloke

16th June 2007, 11:00 PM

what's the chances I have a short or a leak or a discharge somewhere in the circuit\system that's draining the batteries overnight...Jedo

Slim and none. :( Looks like a newie. But a mechanic can test for the leak if you are determined.

Jedo_03

17th June 2007, 09:53 AM

Sounds like a problem with your battery isolator. They are isolated aren't they? What is drawing if it is just sitting in your garage/carport.

Allelse fails, disconnect second battery, if it is still happening, maybe you do have a dud primary battery. Coincidence?

my knowledge of modern engines and esp modern auto-electrics is just about zilch... how do you mean "isolated" - the ignition key...
looking under the bonnet - is at least 8 or so wires running off the +ve terminal. few look like they been added on - not by me - one prolly for the spotties and another prolly for the uhf... neither the spotties or the uhf are working (too lazy\lack enthusiasm)...
now I don't really relish the thought of isolating each wire over an extended period to see if the batteries stay up...
might look at the spotty circuit and uhf circuit and see what...
buying a new primary battery this am and see what happens...
Jedo

journeyman Mick

17th June 2007, 10:25 AM

Big Shed

17th June 2007, 06:32 PM

Jedo,

What Mick said:D

Jedo_03

17th June 2007, 08:32 PM

journeyman Mick

17th June 2007, 11:15 PM

If you don't need it disconnect the second battery, making sure you remove or at least isolate the terminals really well. I like a 2nd battery in a 4wd, especially when going bush, haven't been able to afford one of those fancy 2nd battery management units and use a switch.

Mick

forunna

18th June 2007, 01:09 AM

you could disconnect the terminal then put a meter across from the battery to the lead and see if its reading anything.
but a bad starter motor can sound like a dead battery....

Chris Parks

18th June 2007, 12:21 PM

A couple of thoughts here. How old is the vehicle? A modern diesel has electronics, lots of them and you can do a serious amount of damage if you are not careful. If the Hi Lux had two batteries from the manufacturer then it won't have isolation switches and you need to look further into the problem. An auto elec is the best bet. Modern diesels are now completely computer controlled, so don't drown one either.

Jedo_03

18th June 2007, 09:30 PM

got up this morning -1 and frost all over the hilux...
turned her over and she sounded like a kid giggling...
hehehehevroooom......
so
duff primary battery seemed the cause
not enough cranking amps in the first solution
addition of 660 cca Champion solves problem
(at least for now - haveta wait and see what happens...)
will disconnect the secondary battery - isolate the terminals well
so wasn't a duff starter motor (thank goodness)
the hilux is a 97 model - the cab on the back is aftermarket - rigged for bush trips - so is the secondary battery fit...
this is the vehicle that explored the pilbara and sandy desert with us...
No ferrari - and hardly the epitomy of cab comfort - but a good workhorse
Thanks for your input.
cheers
Jedo

PS - Her car is an 11 month Nissan Patrol with electric everything... even the bloody seats raise and lower with a switch...

speedy

18th June 2007, 10:15 PM

Jedo,
the two batteries need to have some form of isolating switch. Either a two way switch as is often used on boats (battery 1, battery 2, both on, all off) or an automatic load sharing/disconnection/charging device. Otherwise one battery will drain the other flat and then when you get started the good battery gets overcharged as the alternator works full tilt to charge the flat battery.
Mick

I'm an auto elec, here are a few things to try.
Mick is partly correct, you need an isolation switch only if you are running something off the second battery such as a fridge so it won't flatten the primary battery overnight. If nothing is running off the second battery you can leave them connected with no problem provided both are in good working order because if one is faulty and has an internal leak it will drag the good battery down.
I suggest you put the biggest (highest CCA) battery as the primary if it will fit in the holder. To test for a leak in the system which could still be a possibility, first switch everything off eg. interior light and then remove the negitive terminals from both batteries, then carefully touch one of the terminals onto its battery if you see a spark no matter how small then you have a leak. If the spark is very small place an ammeter between the terminal and battery and see how much current is flowing, anything more than 200 milliamps means you have something draining the battery.
Also check that the secondary battery is connecting to the starter motor when cranking by disconnecting a terminal on the primary battery and then trying to start the car, if it starts, good, if not that means the secondary is not being used for starting. This could be because there is an isolation switch and it is off or the way the wiring is done the second battery isn't used to help with starting, and if this is the case I recommend you take it to someone and have it changed so the second battery is also used to help with starting. The advantage in having both batteries used for starting is that it combines the power of both batteries. So if you have a 330 cca battery and a 600cca battery combined you will have about 900 cca which is a good thing.
I hope this helps and is clear enough.:U

Jedo_03

18th June 2007, 11:04 PM

Posted by Speedy

I'm an auto elec, here are a few things to try.
Mick is partly correct, you need an isolation switch only if you are running something off the second battery such as a fridge so it won't flatten the primary battery overnight. If nothing is running off the second battery you can leave them connected with no problem provided both are in good working order because if one is faulty and has an internal leak it will drag the good battery down.
I was thinking along the same lines – that my primary battery was duff. Problems with duff batteries tend to raise their heads in winter when there is more demand on the battery with a cold start…
I suggest you put the biggest (highest CCA) battery as the primary if it will fit in the holder. I’ve done this – the Champion NZ70ZZ only just fits into the space. I went for the 660cca above the 600cca. An added surprise – to me – was to find that you can get Left handed and Right handed batteries. . !
To test for a leak in the system which could still be a possibility, first switch everything off eg. interior light and then remove the negitive terminals from both batteries, then carefully touch one of the terminals onto its battery if you see a spark no matter how small then you have a leak. Okay – will try this. If the spark is very small place an ammeter between the terminal and battery and see how much current is flowing, anything more than 200 milliamps means you have something draining the battery. Okay – I have an ohmmeter thingy that I think measures mA… So if this test is +ve then it’s a job for an auto-electrician, to find out what…
Also check that the secondary battery is connecting to the starter motor when cranking by disconnecting a terminal on the primary battery and then trying to start the car, yeah – I can do that… if it starts, good, if not that means the secondary is not being used for starting. This could be because there is an isolation switch and it is off or the way the wiring is done the second battery isn't used to help with starting, and if this is the case I recommend you take it to someone and have it changed so the second battery is also used to help with starting. The advantage in having both batteries used for starting is that it combines the power of both batteries. So if you have a 330 cca battery and a 600cca battery combined you will have about 900 cca which is a good thing. I first tried replacing the primary battery with an elcheapo 330 cca, which together with the secondary 330 cca battery brought the cranking amps up to 660 but all I got was a reluctant rrRRh…. rrrRRh… As you say – maybe the secondary is isolated from the starting circuit – or maybe the duff primary has (over time) dragged the guts out of the secondary. The test of disconnecting the primary and seeing if the secondary turns her over will determine whether the secondary is connected or not.

I hope this helps and is clear enough
Thanks – yeah, it helped a lot.
My ‘plan’ is to do all the above checks you recommend.
If I get a spark and an ammeter reading >>200 mA then consider an auto=elec consult
If I don’t, then replace the original secondary with the elcheapo 330 cca I just bought and see what happens…
I suspect though, that the Champion 660cca will have enough guts to get me through this winter – and probly the next – before I complain again about cold starting probs. And if it does – then that’s $165 well spent…
Jedo

Skew ChiDAMN!!

18th June 2007, 11:21 PM

If I get a spark and an ammeter reading >>200 mA then consider an auto=elec consult

Ermmm... one thing to consider... does the car radio have a clock? Or is there a clock anywhere on the dash? LCD, handed or otherwise. 'Cos many of them pull a continual draw, even when not actively displaying. They shouldn't be pulling that much, but, well, I've come across one that does! :shrug: (Won't mention car type, except to say it seems Al has developed a dislike for the brand. :rolleyes:)

Also, with remote central locking, the receiver has to be pulling current continuously, else it won't respond when you press the button on your key-ring, eh?

So if you do find a current draw, make sure it's not something as simple as that before consulting the auto-lec (ie. disconnect and retest) as it's a lot easier to spend a few mins resetting the clock, etc. than a few hours earning the auto-lecs fee. :wink:

speedy

19th June 2007, 12:16 AM

Ermmm... one thing to consider... does the car radio have a clock? Or is there a clock anywhere on the dash? LCD, handed or otherwise. 'Cos many of them pull a continual draw, even when not actively displaying. They shouldn't be pulling that much, but, well, I've come across one that does! :shrug: (Won't mention car type, except to say it seems Al has developed a dislike for the brand. :rolleyes:)

Also, with remote central locking, the receiver has to be pulling current continuously, else it won't respond when you press the button on your key-ring, eh?

So if you do find a current draw, make sure it's not something as simple as that before consulting the auto-lec (ie. disconnect and retest) as it's a lot easier to spend a few mins resetting the clock, etc. than a few hours earning the auto-lecs fee. :wink:

Yes you are correct, these things do draw current fairly constantly but it sholudn't exceed 200 milliamps in most cases

bennylaird

19th June 2007, 12:37 AM

When the batteries gets a few years on them they tend to suffer badly from high internal resistance when cold, hence bugr all cranking current. Sometimes some warm water run over them does the trick but best to replace them at that stage anyway. My 2 cents worth.

Lots of good circuits available for dual system isolation and charging etc. The electronics shops have books especially for caravan installations etc that are a good read.

Yonnee

19th June 2007, 12:48 PM

From what I know of battery isolators, most of your add-on accessories should run off the second battery leaving your original vehicle's battery to start the car. (It all depends on how the set-up was installed and what, if any, isolators were used.) That way when your engine is not running, you're only draining the second battery (winching, flood lights, radios, etc.)

You said the second battery was new, but usually this is not the one used to start the vehicle. Which is why when you replaced your primary battery, it should now be OK. You never said how old your primary battery was... these days with tighter, more cramped engine bays, engines running hotter, esp. turbos on diesels, some batteries are lucky to last much more than the warranty period of 2 years, if you get 4-5 you're lucky.

journeyman Mick

19th June 2007, 03:58 PM

If you want a batery that lasts get yourself a Caterpillar battery. I've got one that's got over six years on it and it's still going strong. The plates are sturdier to stop them shaking to bits and there's more space below the plates so they're less likely to short out from crud etc if they do start to shake apart.

Mick

Jedo_03

19th June 2007, 09:29 PM

Skew ChiDAMN!!
So if you do find a current draw, make sure it's not something as simple as that before consulting the auto-lec
Yes – I have a blinking LED when the ignition lock is on

Bennylaird
Lots of good circuits available for dual system isolation and charging etc. The electronics shops have books especially for caravan installations etc that are a good read
The only other component running off the two batteries other than dedicated car electrics is the 12v double fluro in the back cab,,, other than that we rarely go anywhere without our generators: also have two of those 12v jump starters – one of them has an inverter and will run 240v lights and the wireless without even flickering and can be charged from the ciggie lighter.

Yonnee and Journeyman Mick
You never said how old your primary battery was... these days with tighter, more cramped engine bays, engines running hotter, esp. turbos on diesels, some batteries are lucky to last much more than the warranty period of 2 years, if you get 4-5 you're lucky.
I always knew I was lucky with the old primary battery… it was already in the vehicle when I bought it 2nd hand in 2002… so I got 5 years from it… and there’s a bit more room under the bonnet of my 97 hilux than there is under her Nissan Patrol bonnet

Jedo

soundman

8th July 2007, 12:16 AM

If you've had the vehicle since 2002, it now 2007.
It is reasonable to expect that the battery is due for replacement, nothing more nothing less.

lead acid batteries all have some degree of self discharge, as they get older this gets progressivly worse, along with general battery performance.

the theoretical life span of any lead acid battery is two years, in practise it is fair to expect 5 years as a good run.
The best I have had out of a battery is 7 years.

cheers

wheelinround

8th July 2007, 03:18 PM

Had similar problems with my old landcruiser sadly gone:C n missed

Your giving me the idea you are parking it outside with no cover what so ever and with that cold, batteries don't like it reduces the charge.

I went for a better quality of battery plate wise sort of more bang for your buck a normal car battery for diesel hast got the kick especially after using the pre-heat start which some Toyota diesels have (helps warm the pots cold air first) so this takes power out of he battery prior the first boot.
The other thing is try a bucket of hot water over the battery it has worked for me in the past with the LC and the buses & coaches down the snow

Jedo_03

8th July 2007, 09:20 PM

Bit back now... but I did buy a new battery and the problem is solved
Here's the details... and thanks...
""So I bought a champion NZ70ZZ - 660 amps cranking power - this morning and hooked it up,, then a good long run...
secondary battery is still connected... newish, 2yrs - 360 cranking
I've been running two batteries on the vehicle since 2002 when I bought it over in WA and only had any trouble with it this winter...""

Had similar problems with my old landcruiser sadly gone:C n missed

Your giving me the idea you are parking it outside with no cover what so ever and with that cold, batteries don't like it reduces the charge.

I went for a better quality of battery plate wise sort of more bang for your buck a normal car battery for diesel hast got the kick especially after using the pre-heat start which some Toyota diesels have (helps warm the pots cold air first) so this takes power out of he battery prior the first boot.
The other thing is try a bucket of hot water over the battery it has worked for me in the past with the LC and the buses & coaches down the snow

wheelinround

9th July 2007, 09:27 AM

Winter the optimal word coldest one we have had for many years batteries are water after all.
If we leave the Camry out overnight here in suburban westen Sydney the starter motor freezes up.