Picture framing equipment advice please.

[AlexM]

My wife is a good and prolific artist and the expense of paying for frames is a bit much, so I've decided that I'd better start making them.

I have looked at equipment both "in the flesh" or the steel as the case may be, and also on the net and having discovered this site, I thought it would be prudent to seek advice from knowledgeable people here.

Does anyone know the manual mitre saw Deluxe AA? For the price of $195 it includes the extension and stop. Is it of decent quality and accuracy?

I have seen on the net Nobex Proman saws 110B and 110K. Is there any difference between them?

If one were to get a Nobex, would it be better to get the Nobex chamopion 180 or is the 110 sufficient for most frames.

What are the Torquata saws such as the AY 608 like? They are much cheaper than the others.

Where in a saw description it says the maximum mitre cut at 45 degrees is 100mm, does this mean that 100mm is the maximum width of the frame that can be cut at this angle, yet it may have 170mm for a 90 deg cut.

Any advice as to the best types of clamps?
ditto for types of bench V nailers?

Thanks in anticipation for any advice, all of which will be gladly received.

AlexM

[Studley 2436]

Welcome to the managerie Alex.

I do some picture frames myself using a DeWalt mitre saw. I have carefully adjusted it to be as near to true as I can get it.

It was very important to get a good blade in the saw. I'll get back to you with the brand of the blade I have but cost was competitive but quality and accuracy much better than what I have been able to get from other blades.

A clamp can be very useful so the job doesn't move when you cut it. Also I have a bench on either side of my saw one side has a rail and I clamp a stop to it so each side is the same length. You do get a bit of variation with the length you can make your frames and still be OK but each side must be exactly the same as it's opposite side. If not you get a gap in your mitre join.

A shooting board is useful also as you can shave back any errors that have crept in very accurately

Studley

[AlexM]

Thanks for the welcome, Studley.
So you find an electric saw OK for framing? I've been told that it's difficult to be as precise as one can be with the manual saws. Which model do you have?
AlexM

[joe greiner]

Slight miter errors can be corrected by running a back saw along the assembled miter. Sides of the kerf are parallel, so the two pieces will fit perfectly. Some right-angle corner clamps have a gap to accommodate the saw for this. The exercise slightly reduces the outside dimensions, so make a bit oversize first. And cut all four corners to maintain square. Repeat as needed.

Joe

[Studley 2436]

mine is just a decent quality drop saw. Blade is crucial though will find out for you

Studley

[Barry_White]

Try here for gear. Very professional.

http://www.frameco.com.au/

[echnidna]

All you need is a tenon saw & mitre box for cutting.
A mitre guillotine for trimming.

Knock the v-nails in with a hammer.
The commercial dooverlacky for inserting them is awkward compared to the hammer.

And get some clamps,
the steel band ones are much better than the fabric ones,
even the elcheapos from supercheap do a good job.
Which means you can have a few of them and frame a number of pictures at once. (I glue the mitres as well as use vnails as the vnails aren't real rigid and frames mioving around is a major pita

[Studley 2436]

Actually I use the Veritas speed clamp which is really good. It's fast accurate as you can adjust each corner individually. I would say it is a must have.

Vee nails are important. I use a commercial punch which is just a magnet in the end of a brass drift dependable no moving parts and has yet to let me down

Studley

[s_m]

Ahah you know I was just going to post a question like this earlier today.

The thing I'm most interested in are the clamps - I was looking at the Carbatec range online and erring towards a band clamp but haven't eyeballed them IRL yet. Doesn't look like the metal tape ones are much more expensive.

I made some frames last week from an old european oak desktop that I thicknessed down to get rid of the revolting dark stain. Used a Dewalt drop mitre saw at woodwork class with a piece of scrap clamped to the bench to get opposing pieces exactly equal in length.

I've made up a jig so that I can use the circular saw to put feathers in the joints instead of V-nails.

Steph

[silentC]

I use a commercial punch which is just a magnet in the end of a brass drift
I bought one of these (http://www.veezy.com.au/products/components/componentshell.php?item=1)and have found it to be very handy for many things, not just picture framing.

[AlexM]

You have all given me some food for thought so far - confirmed some of my ideas and given me others to think about.

I certainly need to have some type of saw. Gosh it's a hard one with tenon saw, mitre saws (such as Nobex) drop and compound saws ! Don't weant to make a mistake with this choice.

Have considered different clamps such as the Speed clamp and the separate corner ones such as the CarbaTec mitre clamp.

Definitely will get one of the Vee nail gadgets such as the benchmaster or perhaps the DiY place's Bench nailer which is cheaper.

It's certainly all very interesting, and am looking forward to making the frames for darling other half's next exhibition and various other paintings between now and then - jusat hope they look OK (the frames that is)

I'll keep watching for more tips.
AlexM

[Studley 2436]

I am pretty sure I had a benchmaster but it wasn't much good. It broke and I took it back for a refund only a few days after I bought it.

The Veezy nailer that SilentC posted is the one I have got and it is fine.

You might choose just to get a mitre box and use a handsaw with it to get yourself started cheaper that way. Be careful to get a good one though as you might find it doesn't always stop at the right angle if you don't have a good one.

Studley

[bitingmidge]

If you are going to do a heap of them over a long period, no doubt about it, a mitre guillotine is the go. Don't muck around, just go for it!

As for clamps, a long time ago, when I was framing for a living, we used to use the standard Stanley corner clamps, glue them up, then shoot a brad or staple in the side of each corner through the mitre. As soon as the brads are in, the clamps can be removed and the next one started.

Brad/staple guns and compressors can be had at Supercheap for not much more than $100 from time to time, and would be well worth it.

I do have a veezy nailer as well, but the brad gun is quick and ruthless! :D

Of course, it would be a brillliant excuse to buy a domino.....:cool:

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[SilentButDeadly]

We use a Kupper mitre saw, the Veezy v nails/punch and the Veritas speed clamps. All come highly recommended.....

[AlexM]

Gosh more new things. The mitre guillotine? You mean the ones costing a few thousand? No... can't afford that altho I know that would be a great wayto go. Or do you mean the trimmer type guillotine?

The Kupper saw was a new one for me too.

Didn't sound the best about the Benchmaster there.

have to go into town ... donate some blood and pick the other half up from her work.

Thanks again. Have enjoyed reading all this info from all of and greatly appreciate it.
AlexM

[KevM]

This one (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=120_8580) is excellent for taking fine slices off the mitres.

[JeffG.]

I build frames, including running the molding etc. I have a cheap Rigid 10" miter saw (its a US brand you find in Home Depots). Initial cuts to size are made on this. Then they are moved over to large, manual shear that bolts to my workbench. The 'final' cuts are made on this. I've begun using the Festool Domino to join. So far the results are not what I'm hoping for, but I have only built two frames with the Domino... so there's a learning curve there.

I use an 80 tooth Freud blade on the Rigid, and the cuts are like glass.

For clamps I am using these:

http://www.woodpeck.com/clampingwedge.html

and these

http://www.woodpeck.com/clampset.html

[JDarvall]

Personally wouldn't use those V nails. Unless I'm no good at using them. The results seem a little substandard to me (in my best snobby voice).

My boss has an old push pedal gullitine at work. Mitres both ways with a push of your foot. But it seems like over kill to me, especially when he's just mitrering small bead.

For small stuff, easiest I've found just a small block plane and shooting board (just screw it temperorily to your table.

For large stuff, I'd do it on the table saw. Might be the go for you since your so good on them. I've made a sled that rides in the tables slots, that ensures good mitres for framing. It like the 'dual faced mitre gauge' thing you can buy from carbatec (p40 of catalog). I find the concept appealing, and its accurate.

Found it important to glue sandpaper on the fence though to ensure it doesn't slip half way through the cut.

Here's an old picture .....Goodluck.

[silentC]

Unless I'm no good at using them.
I've used hundreds of them and found they do the job very well. But you have to make sure that the joint is tight before it goes in because they wont pull it together for you.

[s_m]

I love that tablesaw sled but how do you ensure the opposing sides of the frame are exactly equal length?

Steph

[JDarvall]

I love that tablesaw sled but how do you ensure the opposing sides of the frame are exactly equal length?

Steph

I just mitre the ends of one side first to the length your after.

Then to make the opposing side equal in length.... just mitre one of the opposing sides ends first, then line the two sides up back to back on a flat surface. Ensure the mitres at one end are lined up nicely ( I just push something flat against both simultaneously) then with a sharp pencil just scribe the completed side off onto the other so you can complete the final mitre ........

p.s......still don't like the V nails. Not really a good jointing tool IMO. I've used them about a dozern times. And they held, but they looked cheapo. Maybe passable for small frames. But for larger ones, I really feel you need a proper joint. They only bind on the surface of one side... so I can see the important side possibly opening up down the track for all to see. ('oh, don't get him to do our frames again')

My favorites using floating tenons. Try and get as many as I can into each joint. Can get a tenon in deep of each mitre no matter how thin the frame is, and close to the surface of each side.

[Studley 2436]

The Blade I have got is a Dimar. Very nice damped blade. I think from memory it is a 40 tooth blade. Works well the big advantage it has over other blades for this is it doesn't deflect on the cut meaning it stays straight and square.

Price was very competitive too

Studley

[munruben]

I do a lot af framing, mostly memorabilia frames, cricket bats, Footy jersey's etc and to be honest, unless you have the right equipment it is not easy to get the perfect mitre joint. This is the way I do it.
First I cut the frame pieces to size with my Delta miitre saw at 45deg
then I trim the ends with a precision mitre trimmer (Carba-Tec $289.00) Guillotine type tool.
I glue the frame together and clamp with a framers band clamp. Carba-Tec stock these too but I have found the cheap one in Bunnings work better than the more expensive ones. I don't recommend the metal band ones I found these to be pretty useless.
The ones in Bunnings are under $20 and do a great job.
Wait for the glue to dry before attempting to put the Vnails in. I dont recommend the Veezy nailer, thats the one with magnetic tip, awkward to use quickly.
Keep the clamp on the frame until you have inserted the V nails (most important)
The best one I have found is the Carba-Tec V-nail tool $23.00 including 200 V nails.
This one is so easy to use and you can usually press the nails home by hand, no hammering. The V nail is located in a slot in the end of the tool and is spring loaded to prevent the V nail slipping. A must to have.
The other tool you will need is a Matt point tool for pushing those little points into the back of your frame to hold the backing board in place. Again I have tried most of these tools and I dont want to sound like an advertising agent for Carba-Tec but they do have the best one for this purpose called the Carba-Tec Matt point tool It comes with 80 matt points at $19.00 is set at just the right angle to push those points home with no effort

The framing clamps can be seen on page 98 of the Carba-Tec catalogue
The Mitre Trimmer on page 99 and Vnailer and Matt point tool on page 101.

If you dont want to go to the expense of the Mitre trimmer.You could do a search on the forum on how to make a shooting board I am told by others that this is the way to go for perfect joints and intend making one soon.

Good luck.:2tsup:

[AlexM]

Thanks again for all the advice.

I bought a mitre trimmer at Carbotec last Monday
.
Then blow me down, I saw one on special at Timbecon website today, and also with a measuring jig which was on special. The two of them even cheaper when bought together.

Now I don't know if the mitre trimmers from the two places are the same - they look the same to me in the pics.

Now my question: Does anyone know if the measuring jig that Timbecon has with their mitre trimmer will fit the mitre trimmer that Carbotec sells? (of course if they are the same the jig will fit!)

[AlexM]

Due to the very good advice I got from a number of you, I went ahead to buy various items of equipment - admittedly with some trepidation as I was somewhat out of practice at doing this type of work. Anyway, I now have the mitre trimmer guillotine as already mentioned, the Nobex champion mitre saw plus measuring system extension, De Walt random orbital sander, Carbotec Veenail tool, Carbatec matt point tool, el cheapo framers band clamp from Bunnings.

I'm really impressed with the Nobex and the measuring system makes it very easy to cut items to exactly the same length (well worth having). The sander has been doing a good job for me too. I've barely had need for the guillotine as the saw has been cutting very accurately, so have only trimmed two pieces with the guillotine. The Vee nailer is awfully fiddly and I find it takes me too long to put in each vee nail - I might try using just a hammer as recommended by one of you. Also I bought a Veritas mitre saddle which is accurate.

I can't speak highly enough of the staff at Carbatec in Auburn, Sydney where I bought several items. One of the chaps spent quite some time talking to us and then doing a demo of using Organ oil - very impressive and much appreciated by my wife and me. The he gave more advice by email.

So, having got all the stuff, I'm now up to frame number 10 - 1/2 of them I've made from raw timber and the others are from moulds.

So, I'm pretty pleased with myself, and we're well on the way now to getting all my lovely wife's paintings framed for her next solo exhibition in November!

Thanks again everyone.
Alex

[RufflyRustic]

Great stuff AlexM!!

You do know what I'm going to say now, though, don't you :D

Pictures!!!!

We need Pictures of your Pictures!! :wink::)

cheers
Wendy

[AlexM]

When we take photos of the exhibition paintings in their frames, I'll put a couple of them here. Should be in the very near future.

Alex

[munruben]

When we take photos of the exhibition paintings in their frames, I'll put a couple of them here. Should be in the very near future.

AlexWe look forward to that:2tsup:

[AlexM]

Here are 3 of Katya's paintings that I have framed:

The Major Mitchells was my first frame (apart from a tiny trial job that I made from a piece of scrap pine). It is maple, sanded with the De Walt, then worked in Organoil with the De Walt and finished with U Beaut Natural Wax - 3 coats. I could only get one piece of maple with that grain pattern which I really liked.

The Resting Place is framed with maple and treated similarly. Since then I have done others using Wattyl stain and EEE Cream which I've fouind helps to give a beautiful smooth finish, plus of course the natural wax to finish it off. I've found that a cloth with elbow grease gives me a better finish than using a polishing pad on the De Walt.

The Girl in Pink is framed with a mould supplied by M&N in Melbourne. It is currently hanging in the Goulburn Traditional Art Competition at Goulburn Workers Club. Incidentally, and I'm pleased to say, Katya won First Prize in the Oils section with her painting of a Whippet (but in an old frame and not one of mine).

Hope you like them!

And if anyone would like to see more of her works, please ask me for her website addresses. She paints a wide variety of subjects.



Alex

[munruben]

Nice work. :2tsup:

[cobber88]

Thanks for the welcome, Studley.
So you find an electric saw OK for framing? I've been told that it's difficult to be as precise as one can be with the manual saws. Which model do you have?
AlexM

Hi Alex , If you are intrested i have some picture framing equipment for sale
all bought from Frame co- Melbourne about a year ago it is all in excellent condition ,Proman saw, with easy measuring system ,Bench master 2 v/nailer base clamp &support arms , pro man framing clamp ,and a frame co Guillotine. cost me about $1200 will sell for $600. you can go online on the Frame co site and have a look Regards cobber88

[SAISAY]

http://www.clubframeco.com/
My wife is a good and prolific artist and the expense of paying for frames is a bit much, so I've decided that I'd better start making them.

I have looked at equipment both "in the flesh" or the steel as the case may be, and also on the net and having discovered this site, I thought it would be prudent to seek advice from knowledgeable people here.

Does anyone know the manual mitre saw Deluxe AA? For the price of $195 it includes the extension and stop. Is it of decent quality and accuracy?

I have seen on the net Nobex Proman saws 110B and 110K. Is there any difference between them?

If one were to get a Nobex, would it be better to get the Nobex chamopion 180 or is the 110 sufficient for most frames.

What are the Torquata saws such as the AY 608 like? They are much cheaper than the others.

Where in a saw description it says the maximum mitre cut at 45 degrees is 100mm, does this mean that 100mm is the maximum width of the frame that can be cut at this angle, yet it may have 170mm for a 90 deg cut.

Any advice as to the best types of clamps?
ditto for types of bench V nailers?

Thanks in anticipation for any advice, all of which will be gladly received.

AlexM
I bought all my tools from FrameCo http://www.clubframeco.com/
I have the Nobex saw and have not had any complaints about it.
Wolffie

[pugwash]

Don't go paying good money for the V-nail press. I stuck a magnet on the end of a bolt with araldite and mounted it in the drill press. It'll push he largest size V-nail into solid jarrah no trouble. Cost? 20 cents. (apart from the drill press)