Sour dough

[forge]

Any home bakers in Melbourne area doing sour dough?Swap recepies ,sources of ingredients.Anyone built mudbrick oven?
Regards,forge:)

[watson]

G'day Forge,
I've had a sourdough brew going for about four years....I'll find the original and post it tomorrow.
I opted out of the mudbrick or brick domed oven as there are only two of us here, and it would have been another wood burning thing to split wood for.....and then you'd have to eat like buggery to consume all the food that one firing would produce....bread /pizza/roast/stews....

[forge]

G'day Forge,
I've had a sourdough brew going for about four years....I'll find the original and post it tomorrow.
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{Look forward to that.By the way i sent you an email about something we discussed quite a while ago .(to your non ww email address)}

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I opted out of the mudbrick or brick domed oven as there are only two of us here, and it would have been another wood burning thing to split wood for.....and then you'd have to eat like buggery to consume all the food that one firing would produce....bread /pizza/roast/stews....
{Thats a fair enough comment.(about the firewood)We have a large extended family ,and we get on with neighbors and friends.We also plan to do neighborhood baking days.(on the days we bake ,people bring their stuff to bake as well) regards,,forge:)

[Doughboy]

Who you calling sour?

[yaryetnom]

Hello Forge,

I am just about finished my brick oven. Saw a few different ones on internet & went to a workshop at the local botanic gardens. I will try to post photos.

Slightly technology challenged so hope it works

[forge]

Hello Forge,

I am just about finished my brick oven. Saw a few different ones on internet & went to a workshop at the local botanic gardens. I will try to post photos.

Slightly technology challenged so hope it works

That is one fabulous looking oven .Are you planing to bake bread for sale?The design looks familiar.Is it based on the breadbuilders oven?What sort of bread are you gonna bake?I have acquired a few interesting books from amazon.com -the village baker/J. Ortiz and a couple books from P. Reinhart -Crust and crumb
and The bread bakers apprentice.Now im waiting on Whole Grain Breads also by P. Reinhart .Tried baking wholegrain in the past , but without success.I really like the way the authors explain why not just the how.The crust and crumb book especially has a very good sour dough starter recipe (i thought)In
the bread baker apprentice Reinhart goes into great detail on the art/science of bread .In the Village baker there are a lot of traditional french/german/italian bread recipe's .
Regards,forge:)

[yaryetnom]

Hello Forge,

The oven is for home use and is based on the bread builders model. It will be used for all purpose cooking . I haven't tried baking bread before, but I a sour dough starter underway.

I guess I have a steep learning curve coming. I have read a few books but I think its a hands on learning experience.

Regards,
Ray

[HappyHammer]

Hi Ray,

Is the chimney / flu at the front as wide internally as the door? What did you use to cover the dome? I was thinking of rendering mine all over but was worried about it cracking due to the heat.

HH.

[yaryetnom]

Hi HH,

The chimney is a wide as seen at the top of the chimney. I need to add several more courses to the chimney.

The dome is bricks with a layer of about 100mm concrete to act as a heat mass. I intend to cover it with a layer of vermiculite/cement powder mix. (6 to 1) Then either render over that or build a roof structure.

Ray

[graemet]

I've been baking basic "ordinary" bread for a few weeks since I got my new oven (kitchen variety), using dried yeast, but would like to try the sourdough. I was hoping that some of the recipes would pop up here after the initial posts but no such luck. Other forums on sourdough seem to make it appear a dark art, shrouded in secrecy. Any advice on starting this from anyone smart enough to be a woodie on this forum would be welcome.
Cheers
Graeme

[hansp77]

I got right into sourdough a few years ago, so I will rant off a bit of what I learned.
I tried the potato water thing- where you let cut potato's naturally ferment in water and draw off the brew to capture a natural yeast to start your leaven with...:no: yuck.

then I began to have more success.

Very simply you start your leaven and then you never let it die- and it should get better and better- or at least develop its own unique character- reputably European regional flavours of breads have developed over sometimes hundreds of years with the mixing bowl never emptying (the same leaven getting past on for generations and capturing and continuing regional specific airborn yeasts).

So, my recipe would be, get some good 'hard' bakers flour (duh! but really, if you don't have good hard flour, then you are already in trouble).
maybe a couple of cups to start with,
get some good bakers yeast, powdered, or in the block- or ask your favourite bakery to give you a tablespoon of theirs (or you are real lucky and they use a continuous leaven like I am describing- then a hunk of dough to start your own leaven)
Dissolve it in water and mix it with the flour to form the consistency of pancake mix.
This is the start of your leaven- that hopefully you will never let die (I lost mine after a year and a half or so)

Cover with a dampened bakers cloth (get a heap of nice clean tea-towles or something dedicated to your bread making and used for nothing else) and leave in a draw, or cupboard- somewhere it won't get disturbed, dry out excessivly, get too hot (though some warmth is good) or get exposed to light.
Let this bubble away for at least 24 hours. Depending on your 'bakers draw' and how quick it dries out you may have to re-moisten the towel (otherwise a dried scum forms on top and is near impossible to kneed out later on).

Basically you watch and test this brew, it should begin to smell sour, and flatten out and slow down a bit. It should be wet, stretchy and glutinous- and sort of globby when you run your finger through it- but not thick and resisting like dough.
After a day or two, take two thirds of your brew, add to more flour, a bit more water, and a small pinch of salt, and use this as your dough.

take the one third left over (from either your ceramic or stainless steel mixing bowl) and replace water and flour to recreate the same consistency and amount of pancake mix leaven and then pour it into a new fresh and clean bowl. I used to have two exactly the same to switch each time. Cover with a dampened bakers cloth and repeat. If you are not going to bake for a few days, or even a week or so, you can cover it as normal and put it in the bottom of your fridge- it will slow it down and prolong the dying moment of your brew.

And basically, that is your leaven and how you make it and keep using it. After the first batch, you never ever add any yeast again. The brew simply continues and continues, and the mixing bowl is never empty.


As far as the actual bread goes-
you obviously have to learn the proportions (which I found best to learn by feel, not measurement) and the consistency of the dough you are after.
Also very importantly how much to knead the dough- enough yes most definately- but not too much. Once you have kneaded your fresh dough with its leaven to that springy elastic slightly more sticky stage- that only you can identify-
then it is time for the (other:rolleyes:) most important stage...
the first rise.
Sourdough, or good bread in general, should have an 8-14 hour first rise, where most of the flavour and delicious gluten strands develop. (I have done 24 hour rises or more for super super sour breads- but 8-14 is a good amount)
So knead your dough till ready, cover again, and set aside to bake later that night or the following morning etc..
after this time, punch out the dough and knead again till that magic moment, then shape your loaf, cover in white corn meal, flour, sesame, whatever, score it with a razor blade (a rather tricky process to get the right depth and cut IMO) and let it do its secondary rise- about an hour or more (or almost doubling of size).

Gently pop it into you preheated oven onto a preheated ceramic tile or even a large flat stone (as I used).
Bake....
One last trick is to put a good thick cast iron baking tray or pan or something in the oven when you turn it on- on the bottom.
When you put your loaf in onto its ceramic tile, at the same time pour a kettle of boiled water into the tray or pan (it should immediately boil)- this is poor mans steam injection, which gives you a delicious crust to the bread.


Lastly I will tell a favourite recipe I made up for sourdough corn bread.
Get a some polenta (maybe a cup and a half per loaf) in a pot and cook till done- not too thick that it will set dry and hard, but so that it will set...
once it has cooled to body temp(ish) then put it in a food processor or dough hook thingy and begin to process it, breaking it up and smoothing out the grains (you could do it by hand, but I like the creaminess that processing creates). Then add your two thirds of the leaven mix as normal to mix through- SLOWLY, gently. It should now be a lot wetter than a normal dough. Next turn out the sloppy mix and add in extra flour to below the thickness of normal dough- and do your best to knead the sticky dough untill it gets EXTRA sticky. This should be a wetter dough than regular sourdough- and thus is a bit harder to work. Once done, set aside for a first long rise, and the next day, punch out, knead again, give a secondary rise and bake as has been described. Works well in a tin due to its wetter dough.
What you are aiming for is approximately a mix of 50:50 between wheat dough and cooked polenta. The dough is made wetter because after the first rise and in the cooking process, at each step the polenta draws in more water- thus the wetter dough gives you a nice moist bread at the end.
This is one of my favourites- it is golden, springy, soft yet strong (like good sourdough) and does not have that sort of granulated dry crumbly corn-bread texture thing like most offerings I have tried.

Delicious!

Rant over,
Hans.

[graemet]

Thanks Hans, that's just what I needed. I have only been letting the dough rise first for about an hour, until it had doubled. Am I game to let it go overnight? Yeah!!!! lets go.
Cheers
Graeme

[Ramps]

Thanks Hans
I have had a couple of attempts with little success. My starter has been attempted from organic wholemeal flour and I can seem to get a good bit of fermentation, sour but not unpleasant smell and all that but I can't get a decent rise ... even after an overnighter.
Might try again

[Ashore]

Forge try a PM to termite , a while back I thing he was asked to join a rather prestegious yank forum on baking :2tsup:

[yaryetnom]

There are a number of items on youtube showing how to do different breads. Just search for sourdough or bread baking etc.

I'm sticking with no knead bread, very simple, good to eat & cooks well in a camp oven in the wood fired oven.:2tsup:

The Forno Bravo site offers a couple of free downloadable books for bread & general cooking recipes. http://www.fornobravo.com/store/Instruction-Manuals-and-eBooks-p-1-c-260.html


Regards,
Ray

[prozac]

Thanks Hans for the recipes and others for links.

For anyone looking for more info on traditional woodfired ovens you cannot go past this one written by a bloke in Brisbane called Rado Hand who is very passionate on the topic...http://www.traditionaloven.com/.

I can't wait to build one.

prozac

[manoftalent]

a good handy site to visit is www.allrecipes.com (http://www.allrecipes.com) they have heaps of info on bread/s ...as a chef I prefer to use fresh yeast over the powdered stuff ....fresh is better .....now a note on the "starter mix"....always keep some and add to it ...but .....and this is an important BUT....if it changes colour to anything but greyish ....throw it out ...you can tell if a "starter" is going off rather than souring by its pinkish appearance ...so keep it in a cool place like you would potatoes ......some recipes say room temperature is fine ....(but they dont take into account aussies humidity either).....

now for some tips ....

Never put salt directly onto yeast .....it acts the same as acid would to your skin...salt retards yeast action/kills yeast on contact

sugar feeds yeast ...but dont go overboard

you can use plain flour bought from the store but add 50-75grams of "gluten" per kilo as the store bought plain flour is low in gluten for baking bread ....to low to get good results ......alternatively buy some high gluten flour from a local bread shop ....ask for some with at least 12% protein..and if you plan on adding gluten as mentioned previously ..then just a teaspoon per kilo should be enough with a good quality flour .....
also buy some "bread improver"...usually found in most supermarkets in the flour section....follow directions on the pack ....this ingrediant will make a difference in your final bake ......you should be able to buy "gluten" in the same spot too....sold in 100gm bags I think .....I buy 25kg bags of the stuff I use it that often :o
and final tip .....baking bread takes time and effort .....if you apply both ...you will get great results ....if you rush it ...you wont ...besides all that kneading is good upper body strengthening....and for women .....well ...lets just say it'll help ya defy gravity :;

[yaryetnom]

Thought I'd post photo of some results. The chook is on a stand with a can 1/2 full of beer with ginger in it.

[yaryetnom]

Technology:doh::B

[forge]

Forge try a PM to termite , a while back I thing he was asked to join a rather prestegious yank forum on baking :2tsup:
Thanks, Ashore.Will get on to it
Regards ,forge:)

[Rodneyaf]

What type of brick did you use in your oven? They don't look like fire bricks.

[yaryetnom]

Sorry I haven't responded earlier. They are solid clay bricks & do the job fine. Fire brick were just too expensive. A lot of people build them using the clay bricks. I havent had a problem so far.

Ray