Using an electric planer on the lathe?

[Hardenfast]

I'm quite new to lathe work, having knocked out 3 or 4 bowls over the last 5 or 6 weeks. Consequently I'm still trying out new techniques, checking in here frequently for advice and especially looking for ways to expedite the "rough rounding" process.

I recently picked up a few pieces of what I call Bull Oak from a property at Goulburn. The tree had blown over some 2 years ago, but had hung up on another tree and had never hit the ground. Anyway, It didn't have much usable timber on it as there were multiple limbs branching off only about 1.5 metres from the ground. Still, I took a chain saw to it and lopped off some sections of trunk and fork. Man, it was HARD.

When I got it home I de-barked a section and mounted it on the lathe after some rough shaping on the band saw, but it was still horribly out of round. I grabbed the electric planer and buzzed some more off the corners while still on the lathe - turning it by hand and using the tool rest as a sighting guide. I got it to a shape that would spin at slow speed without shaking the rig to pieces, and tentatively applied the bowl gouge to the outside of the piece.

Did I say this stuff was HARD? After about 3-4 minutes of buttock clenching "thock-thock-thock" on the high spots I stopped the machine to have a look at my progress as the gouge was already blunt. Very little to show for my few anxious minutes at Defcon 5, I'm afraid. There has to be a better way....

And this is the reason for this thread: The electric planer was still laying there on the bench.... the piece was giving me grief...... Boston Legal would be on soon..... did I mention how hard this stuff was?.... So, I started the machine up again, set the blade depth on the planer to low, placed the bottom of the planer base against the tool rest which I had lowered somewhat, and cautiously applied the spinning planer blades to the spinning Oak.

And there it was! Picture it! Within 45 seconds I had tamed the savage beast and had this piece of Granite Oak reduced to a smoothly rounded blank and ready for some chisel work. Once I had sorted the balance & angle of the planer on the timber it was a piece of cake. Doesn't it tear the material off! My God! The lathe spins the timber into the planer blades such that there was just a solid plume off shavings coming out of the planer chute at full bore. I could watch the rear profile of the timber disappearing in seconds.

I'm sure that this is not an exercise sanctioned by many (any?) of the turning fraternity, and is probably not Workcover approved either - but what is? I'm also sure I'm not the first to try this. However, I think it bears closer research and refinement, and perhaps I'm the man for the job. Any others tried this or have any comments?

I should mention that I've been a carpenter/builder for 35 years so have extensive hand tools and machinery experience, whereas maybe others haven't. Children, don't try this at home! Now to figure out something for the inside of the bowls.

[Harry II]

Now to figure out something for the inside of the bowls.

a chainsaw maybe?:2tsup: :U

[Ruddy]

:o Hardandfast....
I was ducking for cover as I read your post! Scarey stuff.
What was the diameter of the piece you were dressing and what speed were you running?
I am looking forward to the comments of others who may have tried something similar.
Ruddy

[Hardenfast]

Hi Ruddy. I had it turning on the slowest pulley of the Leady lathe - not sure what RPM that is. The original diameter of the piece was around 270mm - I had to round off the corners some more so it would miss the bed.

You know, once it was working it was actually much smoother than the chisel as there were no catches - quite simply, there's nothing to dig-in. The 3 minutes I had just spent with the gouge were much more nerve wracking. It was a matter of just "feeling" how much the planer was biting, and controlling the cut by keeping the planer base on the tool rest while holding the top of the planer rigid and in a left/right action.

I guess the worst part was that you have to stand right in front of the work. Using the planer as a shield, I guess. I don't think I'd be attempting it at anything other than Slow #1.

[soundman]

Im just viewing the whole operation as a cartoon in my mind:o :no: :rotfl:

I've just read Dia sensai's post about cutting burls up a too short ladder with a chainsaw, whilst tied to a tree.

Hard... hard
It brings to mind a quote from richard rafin.
"I've turned timber so hard that i didn't bother turning the grinder off.":ranting2:


cheers

[China]

You need to read some books on "Turning without fingers" because thatis what you will be doing very soon

[reeves]

hardenfast, i admire yr adaption and ingenunity, i mean if it works for you then go for it. On the really hard stuff i have found the highest speed and a sharp scraper best.

As for the inside of the bowl, one of those arbortec carving tools with a diamond thin kerf blade might work ;-) but a supersharp vanadium alloy chisel and high speed will also do it...

[TTIT]

Why not I say! People attack pieces on the lathe with angle grinders and such for texturing and so on :shrug: I can't see a problem as long as you're aware of the possible hazards - could be fun!:U I reckon I'd want something in place to make sure the blades can NEVER be pushed back to the toolrest though ! OUCH :o

[Manuka Jock]

Good skills Hardman , a tru chippie you are .
Must try it meself :)
if we can use a chainsaw on the roof , why not a buzzer an a lathe eh .
I'm cant wait for the video to come out :D

Jock

[joe greiner]

I've considered a similar stunt with a Lancelot tool: short chainsaw chain with double cutters mounted on a 4 1/2" right-angle grinder. BUT, I'm not even thinking of doing it hand-held; a single catch is bad enough, double or triple too scary to contemplate. I'd mount the planer or Lancelot on a movable tool post like on a metal lathe or an ornamental lathe, and feed it very gradually into the work. Also, turn the lathe by hand until I'd gained a whole lot more experience.

On one of Nawm's (Norm Abrams - New Yankee Workshop) shows he visited a shop turning huge bowls - about 1.5m diameter IIRC. They had a router mounted on a movable arm to cut the inside of the bowl. Might have done the outside that way, too.

Joe

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I can see myself using a planer with the blank mounted and the lathe off... but somehow, hitting the on button strikes me as being too much like Tim "the toolman" Taylor/Allen... :innocent:

[ubeaut]

So where's the problem here.:dunno: What ever gets the job done is fine. To prove this point, I have in demo's used a plane, spokeshave, draw-knife, pocket knife, axe, broken glass and a number of other equally ridiculous, but sharp items. :whistling:

Almost anything can be used as a turning tool so long as you know what you're doing, and the limitations of the tool. Should be no reason why you can't use an electric planer and in some instances it could be safer than some of the practices I have witnessed over the years by those who call themselves turners.

Never used an arbortech freehand and have no intention of ever doing so. However, I would happily use an electric planer on the lathe with no fear of it going wrong.:woot:

Cheers - Neil :shiny:

[Bodgy]

I'm with Niel. Whats the big deal?

Assuming the work is held securely, and you hang on to the planer tight, what's going to happen? Seems a lot less potentially dangerous than using a roughing gouge.

Even if the planer gets 'rejected' by the spinning blank, its going to be fairly controllable, unlike a flying gouge, or worse still the snapped off end of a gouge at Mach 2.

This is the sort of lateral thinking and innovation I love, well done Hardenfast

[Hardenfast]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I thought this topic may be of some interest to you - even if somewhat controversial.

I fully understand the trepidation that some of you have voiced, but note the comments of Neil. I would have loved to watch him demo some of those items - particularly the axe. I finished my epistle with an explanation that I have been a carpenter for 35+ years, and during that time I have used just about every type of woodworking machinery available.

Consider your own workshops and how close you willingly place your own extremities to bandsaw & circular saw blades etc on a daily basis. China mentioned losing my fingers during the lathe/planer exercise, but my appendages were probably much much safer during this exercise than most of the processes which we routinely perform without a second thought.

Remember also that practice this will only ever be used for rough external rounding. There is no chance of producing the thin walls that seem to produce many of the "fly offs" I have heard about. Also, virtually all of the removed waste gets jetted out of the planer shute - there's virtually nothing coming directly at you at all. You could almost connect a flexible line straight to the dust extractor or even a wheelie bin.

Joe, because the base of the planer is basically flat there are no catches! It only took a few seconds to figure out that you can adjust the height & angle of tool rest so that you can use the base of the planer like the bevel on your gouge and control the amount of blade presented to the work. It's certainly not going to be something everyone is prepared to have a go at - particularly the traditionalists.

And Reeves, I agree. There will never be a suitable substitute for a nice sharp HSS chisel.

I'll keep you all informed if anything of note occurs. :)

Wayne

[hughie]

Hardenfast,

Some time ago before I had a bandsaw this was my standard method of knocking the lumps off a whole lot of curly, lumpy pine I acquired. :2tsup:

It was green and very much out of balance,the whole process worked well in fact I drove my el-cheepo planner [ an arlec] so hard I shredded the drive belt.:C :~ :U

But at the end of the day a bandsaw is much easier, no worries tho' if it works run with it. :U

[Gil Jones]

Hardenfast, I think it is a great idea!! I have a De Walt electric hand-planer, and the next chunk of wood on the lathe is going to feel its bite. Thanks...

[Ashore]

Hardenfast The only thing I would say is work out some way to keep the top of the planer steady and piviot from there and swing the bottom of the planer in to the job then it would push the planer away from the job if it digs in rather than into the spinning wood and possibly jam

[joe greiner]

I reckon my concern was more directed to the Lancelot (second cousin to arbortech). The only time I use it freehand is with the timber locked in position, e.g. hefty logs in a sawbuck with strap clamps. With the flat base, a power plane wouldn't be any worse than a block plane.

Joe

[OGYT]

I reckon if I had one, I'd give it a try! :D I once used a chain saw from the backside of Old Griz, with it turnin' on the slowest speed (which ain't really slow). :yikes: Takin' as light a cut as old shaky could take, with the chain runnin' at about a 45 degree angle to the log. Don't recommend it... I think the planer sounds safer.

[cedar n silky]

Wayne, I like improvisation. "Necessity is the mother of invention".The photo shows me cutting off the bottom off a big bowl blank, with the chuck locked down on the lathe. Saved a lot of work with a chisel/ gauge!:D As for the inside, could I suggest the end of your chainsaw!!:o :no:
Seriously though:no: maybe if you could mount the bar nice and rigid, in a modified tool rest or the like and run the saw and the lathe at a predetirmined speed, you might:o:no: be able to umm well, kiddies definately don't try this at home. But seriously, I am toying with the idea of using my chainsaw as a texturing tool for the tops of some bigger bowls. It's all been done before:doh:

[Hardenfast]

Thanks again Guys.

I actually tried this again over the weekend and again found it very successful. I had a bit of old, dry Wattle which has several proud branch stumps etc and was very ordinary in shape. I purposely left it fairly rough, mounted it on the chuck and strated it up at #1 slow. Within 20 seconds with the planer I was able to change to #2 pulley, and within another 30 seconds it was a consistent round shape. Admittedly this was a smallish piece, which ended up around 150mm rough rounded diameter.

Anyway, maybe I'm just lazy or too impatient, but this seems to be a great time and chisel/gouge saver - for my purposes, at least. I'm encouraged by the lateral thinking of the forum members:

Bodgy, I've heard the horror stories of snapped off chisels flying through the shed like ninja stars. Personally, I find that initial process of introducing a chisel to the spinning wheel of death quite daunting. I've already had several pieces come flying off the chuck after nasty dig-ins - luckily with no casualty. This is one of the main reasons I tried the planer.

Hughie, I still knock the corners etc off with bandsaw prior to chucking and then use the planer with the piece on the chuck, turning by hand and trimming the piece using the tool rest as a guide prior to starting the machine up. Maybe time to buy another El-Cheapo planer?

Gil, let me know how the exercise goes. I'm going to knock up a jig to suit this process and head off to the Patents Office!

Ashore, there certainly seems to be plenty of room to refine this. I think you may be onto something with your suggestion to hold the top of the planer in a fixed jig - allowing the bottom to float in and out. I'm going to see if I can get something made up as a prototype.

Joe, any links or info to the Lancelot? I'm not familiar with this piece of machinery - sounds interesting.

OGYT, the chain saw definitely sounds a little more hairy than the planer, but again, I think it depends on the expertise and experience of the operator.

Cedar, I'm sure you're correct - it's certainly all been done before. There's a little jig you can clamp on the end of the chain saw bar to allow a second user to have some control. Maybe this could be adapted somehow? Possibilities indeed!

All comments most welcomed, Gents. I fully intend to explore this in much more detail.

[Stuart]

I have used an Arbortech on the lathe (way back when - before I had a bandsaw), and it worked remarkably easily. Granted I ran the lathe dead slow (and did some initial roughing to round with the lathe stopped - the Arbortech caused the work to rotate anyway).

It may sound crazy, but I reasoned that the relative speed of the arbortech versus the speed of the lathe running slow, meant that as far as each tooth of the arbortech was concerned, the work was relatively stationary. So long as I approached it slowly, it seemed pretty easy to control.

I would say that the same reasoning could be applied to a planer. So long as the end of the planer had no chance of being impacted by the work (which would knock the planer out of your hands pretty easily), then the relative speed of the planer blades to the workpiece surface is significantly different.

I have since asked a number of people about it over the years, and have found that I haven't been the only one to try it.

[markharrison]

I'm not a woodturner (well, not yet anyway) and I don't play one on TV but, I have heard of hand planes being used on lathes. In fact there dedicated models for making barrels. See page 209 of The Handplane Book by Garrett Hack.

Some of these planes were secured by a rod hanging over the lathe to the front of the plane. I suppose a cable attached to the front knob of the electric plane should achieve the same thing.

[joe greiner]

Nawm (Norm Abrams - New Yankee Workshop) has used a hand-held hand plane on spindle work; as with stationary planing, works best cutting with the grain. I'd expect similar advisory with the power planer.

Here's a couple links for the Lancelot tool:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/g6692

http://www.katools.com/lancelot.html

Like the Arbortech, the Lancelot demands a lot of respect and safety precautions. I've used it for general shaping, as well as limited stump grinding (small stumps). With practice, I've been able to almost match the finish of a belt sander. (Very almost, that is, and lots of practice).

As you can see, it's a hairy beast. Most right-angle grinders have multiple sockets for attaching the auxiliary handle. These could be attachment points for a fixed or adjustable tool post. I'd still eschew use of the trigger lock in favour of the deadman control. Same with the power planer.

Joe

[littlebuddha]

911 is it over there for the emergency servises, well reading all this i can see that somewhere along the line someone is going to get hurt, fine great stuff its all a great laugh but at the end of the day just because it worked once or twice does not mean it will leave you with all your fingers, iv been a carpenter for a good 40yrs and seen some dam crazy stuff. Health and safty has got a bit silly over the last few years but if you guys thing this sort of thing is good then you need your heads looking at.
Try diff tools for diff jobs by all means but use the brain you were given, one slip up one catch and you have a few bits missing and get a nice red stain in the wood. And if anyone uses a chainsaw on a lathe that is moving then you have no brain, mother of invention is one thing, being a total idiot is another. If you are new to turning read books watch videos, there are loads of info on the internet as well as this forum that would help you or others, main tools are there to use understand how to use them. If it was meant to do the job it would be sold for it. renamed lathe planer and sold at twice the price, maybe with a jig that fixed it to the tool rest. Trying new things is one thing safty is another. my moan for the day guys, have fun. Lets turn wood and not turn the hospital sheets down. Oh did i explain how to use the petrol lawnmower for rounding off.

[OGYT]

:logic: :tongue2: :Q

[cedar n silky]

911 is it over there for the emergency servises, well reading all this i can see that somewhere along the line someone is going to get hurt, fine great stuff its all a great laugh but at the end of the day just because it worked once or twice does not mean it will leave you with all your fingers, iv been a carpenter for a good 40yrs and seen some dam crazy stuff. Health and safty has got a bit silly over the last few years but if you guys thing this sort of thing is good then you need your heads looking at.
Try diff tools for diff jobs by all means but use the brain you were given, one slip up one catch and you have a few bits missing and get a nice red stain in the wood. And if anyone uses a chainsaw on a lathe that is moving then you have no brain, mother of invention is one thing, being a total idiot is another. If you are new to turning read books watch videos, there are loads of info on the internet as well as this forum that would help you or others, main tools are there to use understand how to use them. If it was meant to do the job it would be sold for it. renamed lathe planer and sold at twice the price, maybe with a jig that fixed it to the tool rest. Trying new things is one thing safty is another. my moan for the day guys, have fun. Lets turn wood and not turn the hospital sheets down. Oh did i explain how to use the petrol lawnmower for rounding off.
Boooring:D

[Dennis Millard]

Thanks for that, Hardenfast, I have often thought about trying that, but never had the nerve to try it. I can't see what could rereally go wrong; the plane base is going to take the brunt of any dig-in, and the chips fly off at a good angle. I might try it now I know someone has done it.
Dennis.

[Hardenfast]

Lighten up a little, Buddha.

It's worth remembering that all of the incidents and accidents that have ever occurred during wood turning works have probably happened while using conventional or "main tools", as you call them.

Have a look at the link below (originally posted by Sebastiaan56 - thanks) which showcases some of the failures and incidents of woodturning. And I'll bet you there are far more serious examples of failure around. The point is, you can be pretty sure that none of these events has occurred because someone has used a planer, or an arbortec or a chain saw on the piece while it was turning. They all would have occurred while a conventional turner was using a conventional chisel in the conventional manner on a conventional project.

http://scalaire00.free.fr/images/oops/index-eng.html


In my limited turning experience, it seems that many item failures occur because of defects in the timber, or at least user mis-judgement as to the stability of the piece. Timber is a natural resource and consequently has all of the imperfections and defects which we routinely eliminate in any manufacturing process. Indeed, it is these very defects and imperfections which generally provide us with the most striking grains and effects. Unfortunately, it is in our nature to always test the safer limits of an already hazardous process. We will always want to make the wall a little thinner, or use a piece with a more startling configuration - even though we know that the effect actually makes the piece unstable. And I continue to hear of even the most experienced artists who still have the occasional nasty dig-in or other mishap. Seems to be an industry hazard.

As I've said previously, it would seem that anything is possible depending on the operator's skill and experience. I would back OGYT's, Cedar's & Joe's ability to produce something spectacular with the Lancelot or the chain saw (or Neil with the axe!), knowing that they would only use the implements within the bounds of what they are comfortable doing. Quite simply, if after 40 years on the tools you are not confident of your ability to try something new - don't do it! Nobody's suggesting that these are methods for implementation by all - quite the opposite. I'm just trying new things and getting opinion and evaluation from one's peers - (Woodwork Forums) and backing my experience and ability to control the outcome. If something doesn't work, either remedy your application or try something different.

I didn't mean this thread to be so intense - just enjoying the little time I get to participate in this wonderful new field & sharing the experience. Peace & love, everyone! :2tsup:

Dennis, give it a try. Slowly and gently does it, and if you're proficient with your equipment I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks all - including you littlebuddha.

Wayne

[China]

Food for thought, being able to adapt various tools to use on a lathe is great, but only when it gives a advantage. Any woodturner who is a true tradesman could have any piece of timber roughed down to cylinder in such a short time it would not be worth switching the planer on, learn how to do something properly in the first place and keep the ingenuity for the times when it is needed

[littlebuddha]

[quote=Hardenfast;543297]Lighten up a little, Buddha.

It's worth remembering that all of the incidents and accidents that have ever occurred during wood turning works have probably happened while using conventional or "main tools", as you call them.


You have just made my point you can make mistakes with the right tool for the job. But hey its your fingers and anything eles that get in the way not mine. And yes i am confident with any tool i use, expereance tells me not to be so daft, experement yes but there is a line. I tend to find that giving information that you use a chainsaw on a moving lathe and tell people to try it dam daft, but hey im the one thans ranting, no expereance, boring and whatever eles.
No problems for me, oh that was it lighten up. Though this was for descution my mistake keep my nose out hate to upset the kids.

[trcol2]

I knew that I was destined to never move past nice square joints of innumerous styles, panels, laminates, veneers...

If it's got some square edges, I'll stick to it... Round stuff's not for me...

[Hardenfast]

I knew that I was destined to never move past nice square joints of innumerous styles, panels, laminates, veneers...

If it's got some square edges, I'll stick to it... Round stuff's not for me...

Yep, that's was me a little while ago as well, trcol2. Anything still in the round hadn't yet been properly machined. :D

Buddha, no-one has suggested that your comments are not relevant or are questioning your experience. It's perfectly valid to have an opinion and enter the discussion - that's why we're all here.

But "upset the kids"? Tee Hee Hee.....

[OGYT]

Buddha: I tend to find that giving information that you use a chainsaw on a moving lathe and tell people to try it dam daft,
:ranton: Learn to read, Buddha. I said I once used the chainsaw... and I did not tell others to do so. Good grief! :rantoff:

[cedar n silky]

We are getting a bit precious here!:o Innovation means taking risks, doesn't it!! We have regular debates about art versus craft, and how have we reached the end of developing the vessel etc etc. But!:o If the chainsaw or planer, or whatever is well secured, you are wearing appropriate PPE and you have weighed up the pros and cons, and take a "calculated " risk, well the outcome might be transforming, inspiring, cutting edge stuff. And the forum is a great place to pass on this knowledge, with all the precautions and risks mentioned:D :2tsup:

[hughie]

Oh well, we jump out of perfectly good air planes, tie rubber bands to our feet and dive off bridges, dive to the bottom of the ocean and free dive a couple hundred metres on a lungful of air, fly at mach 47 or what ever, and walk on the moon, climb mountains..the higher the better just cos they are there.. :?

Life is risky, we try and calculate the risks. Sometimes the math is good some times not....

Using an electric planer on a lathe, given my crazy past does not seem so risky.
Jeez I got married and didnt bother to buy the flammin' manual :o :C :U did the same with the tin lids... :o :U

[robyn2839]

sound like pretty scarey stuff to me , maybe mount a video camera every time you do it cause when it eventually goes wrong you,ll have it for funniest home video.and you will have a home entertainment package to watch while you are recovering ,stay safe. bob

[littlebuddha]

Buddha: I tend to find that giving information that you use a chainsaw on a moving lathe and tell people to try it dam daft,
:ranton: Learn to read, Buddha. I said I once used the chainsaw... and I did not tell others to do so. Good grief! :rantoff:
LEARN to read yourself, did i mention you by name, chainsaws planers helicopters whatever. now go rant yourself

[RETIRED]

Behave Gentlemen..

[rodent]

I dont know about about a jig for a power planer but there are quite a few for routers to be used on the lathe .As for using an axe on the lathe ive used a hatchet as a skew on the lathe . chatter doing thin spindles is always a problem.