Which Boat To Build [Archive]

bassic

10th July 2007, 03:39 PM

I am looking for the designs of an off the beach boat. Originally I was looking at a Mirror Class, but I've already built one (with my dad). Then started looking at a Puffin Pacer, but am having a lot of trouble getting any information about them.
I want to give my son the type of fun I had with my father, building a boat together, and going out sailing / racing during summer, carrying out repairs and maintenance during winter and getting the whole family involved in a good clean sport.
The problem is the limited number of designs that I can find to suit the bill.
Construction from plywood, 2 man boat, main sail, jib and spinnaker. No trapeze as this will be a "learning to sail" boat for my kids & wife, upto 14 feet or 4.3 meters. (Yes the wife is keen about the whole idea :2tsup: )

Would appreciate any ideas, suggestions, designs etc.

Thanks

Robert

Boatmik

10th July 2007, 08:21 PM

Howdy Robert,

If you want to go racing the choices are a bit limited these days - almost all racing boats have gone the expensive route of moving to foam sandwich construction.

You can still build a competitive boat out of wood in some of these classes if you are careful with the timber selection and working through the class rules to optimise timber dimensions - maximum stiffness for minimum weight.

There is a bit of a contradiction in your requirements - generally as soon as there is a spinnaker of any size it becomes a really good reason to fit a trapeze and get more performance - this is the direction of the 125 and 145 and National E (originally called the Lazy E)

The Puffin Pacer which fits your criteria has become quite an important sail training boat for schools - but usually they sail them without the spinnakers and you would have to find a school that was participating in regular club racing at a time and place to suit yourself.

One of the major criteria is to find a class that is sailed in your area.

Other classes that might part fit your criteria are
Heron - no spinnaker
Sabre - single hander
Arrow - single handed cat
Taipan - high performance cat
Cobra - medium performance cat.
Fireball - high performance spinnaker trapeze

You can find more information on each of these by using the search here
http://www.yachting.org.au/db/class_list.asp

Many people have dropped out of the conventional club racing scene and moved to sailing wooden boats that don't fit in any class scheme. State Wooden Boat Associations have many events - cruises (ie informal races), racing (formal races) picnics (informal races) and visits to see people who are also building boats (see who the opposition is going to be next year).

Other people might have more suggestions

catbuilder

11th July 2007, 07:24 PM

I'd agree with the 125 dinghy, theres a number around Melbourne, they are good for the family and would good to build. I started on one with my dad and then progressed to a mate and I. We hardly used the trapeze when we started, but it was there to use as our confidence grew.

I actually have a set of plans here somewhere, but I never got around to it. Maybe one day when my kids are old enough.

You can join the association, which is also handy for buying masts and things.

On a similair note, if you were to look at catamarans, the mosquito is quite a good starter for an father or mother/son or daughter, mum and dad, etc... Also easy to build with a good support network. The Taipan is also good with a bit higher performance, but things like the mast, beams are a lot more expensive than the Mosquito.

Food for thought

Matt

b.o.a.t.

16th July 2007, 12:25 AM

Then started looking at a Puffin Pacer, but am having a lot of trouble getting any information about them.

Would appreciate any ideas, suggestions, designs etc.

Thanks

Robert

G'day Robert
Have the Pacer Association been any help ?
http://www.pacersailing.org.au/index.php
One would think they'd at least know where to get plans. Or (likely cheaper) a second-hand boat & do it up. Likely to be easier too. 1-design boats are exacting when measuring up for class acceptance.
cheers
AJ

bassic

17th July 2007, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the replies guys.

No the Pacer Association has been no help, sent 2 e-mails and left one phone message, no reply.

I've been having a close look at the 125, thats a real possibility, bit more expensive, mainly due to rigging but not bad.

The others mentioned don't really fit the bill, I could even add a few more to the list, Paper Tiger, A Class, Tornado, Taser etc.

One that has popped up is the Lazy E or now called E Class, single trapeze but no cross tree on the mast so a lot cheaper to rig.
Anyone had any experience with them ??

Anyway thanks for the help and I'll keep you posted as things progress.

Robert

catbuilder

17th July 2007, 10:08 PM

Hi Robert

Shouldn't be any real diffrence in rigging costs for the 125/National E. The National E, I'm sorry to say 'does' have spreaders, almost identical in fact (I have a mate thats owns one and have crewed for him). Both still have spinnakers and trapeze to.

The only real difference I suppose it that the 'E' is a bit longer, and I'll have to have look to make sure I'm right in saying that it is multi chined as opposed to the 125 which is single chined.

Regards

Matt

Boatmik

18th July 2007, 01:04 AM

The "Lazy E" "National E Skiff" "National E" is quite a big boat for a couple of people to manage on the shore - the 125 is much lighter to lug around.

Both are reasonable sailing boats.

The 125 has a bit more sail for its weight so can be a little frisky in a stronger wind.

Paper Tiger is a good suggestion - a single handed cat.

Tornado and A class are big bikkies - huge biccies really - an A would be over $20,000 and a Tornado probably getting close to cracking $30K. Both are well beyond an average home builder to come up with something competitive as they have moved over to sophisticated foam/glass structures.

Taser is not home buildable.

MIK

Daddles

19th July 2007, 10:52 AM

Build a Goat Island Skif - easy to build, simple and fast which is important in a father and son project (kids may not hang in for a long project), easy to sail and once it's finished, you'll be able to embarress all those nancy boys with their class racers :D

Richard

bassic

25th July 2007, 10:29 AM

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated.

Looks like the selection has been narrowed to Mirror, Pacer, 125.

All I have to do now is get in contact with someone from the Pacer Association then make I final choice. Finally I have a phone number to call.
I have already been in contact with people for the Mirror and 125.

I'll keep you posted

Thanks

Robert

ausie

25th July 2007, 04:39 PM

Robert,

One of Mik's suggestions, the Paper Tiger catamaran would be the way I'd go.

They are pretty active down your way & re-building an older wooden one would be an affordable & interesting project if you can track down an unwanted old boat that was basically sound.

The end result is a lightweight easily sailed simple little perfomrnce catamaran that looks good too!

Al.

bvdl75

25th July 2007, 06:34 PM

Robert
What about a Flying Ant.
I grew up with one and had a ball in it sailing it off the beach at Edithvale.
Although it is supposed to have a trapeze I never had mine fitted.
It was fast fun class
The are still clubs that saile them in Vic
Albert Park Yacht Club (http://www.mooetchells.yachting.org.au/db/clubdisplay.asp?ID=3044&Action=Display)www.apyc.org.au (http://www.apyc.org.au/)VICAlbury-Wodonga Yacht Club (http://www.mooetchells.yachting.org.au/db/clubdisplay.asp?ID=3045&Action=Display)www.awyc.org.au (http://www.awyc.org.au/)VICBlack Rock Yacht Club (http://www.mooetchells.yachting.org.au/db/clubdisplay.asp?ID=3048&Action=Display)www.bryc.yachting.org.au (http://www.bryc.yachting.org.au)

Boatmik

26th July 2007, 09:01 PM

Gumby

26th July 2007, 09:21 PM

I'd go the Pacer, definitely. It's resale value is better for starters. 125's are almost extinct. Sabres are single handed.

I sailed Pacers with my kids (came 3rd in the Vic championships 1993) and Sabres - won the Vics (twice) :D

Sailed PT's as well. Bloody fantastic boats but not for beginners and not 2 handed.

Have another go at calling the Pacer mob or got through the VYC.

They are absolutely perfect for what you want to do.

What part of Melb are you in?>

I could suggest a club contact if it helps.

bassic

27th July 2007, 02:17 PM

Gumby

27th July 2007, 07:42 PM

Hey guys ... this feed back is great :2tsup:

It looks like the Pacer is getting the vote so far.
Paper Tiger I would love, but only single handed ... maybe later for Dad:roll:

Gumby, I live in Carrum Downs, I know the Carrum Yacht Club have a fleet of Pacers and they are only 15 min drive, did you have another club in mind ??
I am going to try the contact number I have for the Pacer Association next, see what I can come up with.

Again thanks for the feed back

Robert

I sailed at Carrum for about 20 years. Mention the name Gumby down there and you'll get a reaction. :D I was Rear Commodore there, and also did the club magazine for many years. I left about 3 years ago.

However, the club is just about kaput. They'd be lucky to have 6 boats on the water each week. I remember the days when fleets of 100 were not uncommon. We would get 20-30 Sabres and almost as many Pacers and 125's. Ah, those were the days.

They do have a keen Committee and are looking for new members. They run a training school most Sunday mornings.

If a laid back approach with friendly, helpful people and not big fleet racing is what you want, then give them a go.

http://www.carrumsailingclub.com.au/

Otherwise, check out Frankston, Mordialloc Sailing Club or Beaumaris who would have more Pacers in their fleets.

pawnhead

27th July 2007, 08:18 PM

I sailed at Carrum for about 20 years. Mention the name Gumby down there and you'll get a reaction. :D My first boat (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/?action=view&current=632ManlyJunioratBalmoral.jpg) was called Gumby. I wish I'd got a picture of the name. It took me ages to paint it on. Dad and I built it.

You couldn't give your kids a better experience than to build and sail a boat with them. :2tsup:

Gumby

27th July 2007, 11:22 PM

My first boat (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/?action=view&current=632ManlyJunioratBalmoral.jpg) was called Gumby. I wish I'd got a picture of the name. It took me ages to paint it on. Dad and I built it.

You couldn't give your kids a better experience than to build and sail a boat with them. :2tsup:

fancy that, what a coincidence. Nice pic. :wink:

My first Sabre was called Water Gumby. That was around 1979:oo:. From that day on, there were people at the club who had no idea what my name was. I just became Gumby. :rolleyes:

Several boats thereafter were named the same. I had a Fireball with a mate whose Sabre was called Pooh Bear. Whe called the Fireball 'Gumby and the Bear'. :)

The PT was called Water Gumby but when we went to pacers, we named the boat 'Terminator Duck' :D and all 3 of the boys crewed with me at various stages.

As you said, it's great family stuff. We'd go away to National Titles, stay in the caravan and we all had a blast. We still see those friends now, even though they've stopped sailing. I'm still at it as mainsheet trimmer on a 35' keel boat at Royal Melbourne.

It's a shame the kids these days don't get involved in clubs like that anymore.:(

Boatmik

28th July 2007, 12:13 AM

Nice looking Sabre Gumby! THe hypnotic "rightness" of a properly set up boat.

MIK

bvdl75

31st July 2007, 01:03 PM

Howdy BVDL,

The Flying Ant is a great little boat - for a couple of kids and it is also a great boat for a single adult - but it doesn't answer the problem of a "Father and Son/Daughter" type boat.

Also the have gone high tech crazy - here is the current price for a full carbon fibre mast, boom spinnaker pole.
http://www.cstcomposites.com/flying_ant.htm

Just those bits come to $2200!!!!!!! Just to get a couple of 13 year olds on the water.
MIK

WOW expensive parts, I actually still have my flying ant, it hasnt touched water in nearly 10 years and need of some restoration. I actually tried to give it away about 6 months ago and neither of the two people I offered it to ever turned up to pick it up.

I actully learned to sail in it father and son and although we were probably slighlty overloaded it performed well, not sure how competative we woudl be however.

Think I will have to keep it and maby do it up and use it to teach my daughter to sail, she is only 20months at the moment but if I start now it may be ready for her by the time she is old enough.

Ben

bassic

22nd August 2007, 12:51 AM

Hey Gumby .....
Nice Sabre, took me ages to find but I finally came across them.
The shots were taken about 31 years ago, my first Sabre at age 15, with a bit of help from Dad. Number 276.
Being built then launched.
I remember they days when we would sail a fleet of 100+ Mirrors, 50 odd Sabre's and god knows what else, I was a member at Blairgowrie. The fun we had and the friends we made. I just want to give my kids the same type of enjoyment, good clean fun outdoors.

See Ya

Robert

Boatmik

22nd August 2007, 01:02 PM

Beaut boat Bassic!

The Sabres are one of a few pools of sanity in the conventional sailing world. That's probably why their fleets are growing while most others contract.

You can still build a very fine competitive Sabre from wood for around $3000.

Same price as the Flying Ant Mast, Boom and Spinnaker pole by the time they are rigged.

MIK

bassic

22nd August 2007, 08:19 PM

Ohhhhhhh Godddddddd
Hey just found a shot of the Mirror Dad and me built the session before the Sabre. Oh the memories. Excuse the photo but these are starting to get very old ....... ummmmmmmm .... just like me I suppose ...:?

Roll On Summer

Rob

graemet

22nd August 2007, 11:16 PM

This is a bit late, both for this thread and, I suspect, the real world. Your criteria for a wooden boat without spinnaker, suitable for father son/daughter/wife combination, able to be handled by two people on and off the water and a sight faster and more exciting than a Mirror, would have been perfectly filled by the NS14. Originally based on the John Spencer designed 14' Javelin with a sail area of 100 sq.ft, it rapidly developed as the measurement restrictions were quite wide. Originally, most boats were home built, but as higher performance was sought, the commercial builders started to produce hi-tech glass fibre hulls. That doesn't mean that a home built, ply NS14 wouldn't still measure, but the chances of being competitive in a racing fleet would be small. While the class stuck to the original concept of being suitable for families not attracted to trapezes and kites and a realistic minimum crew weight, with at least one adult (over 21) in the crew, they flourished, but when the rules were relaxed to allow teenaged crews with lots of muscle and money, they have become just another off the beach class.
In the 70s and 80s, state and national championships would attract fleets of over 100 boats.
If you would like to consider the NS as a boat to have fun with and race in a mixed fleet, I could probably still find a set of plans of one of the later, faster ply designs for you.
Cheers
Graeme

Boatmik

23rd August 2007, 08:30 PM

Howdy Graemet,

I for one would be very keen to see some of the plans for the faster wooden boats.

I raced NS14s for many years before going over to Sharpies. The NS14s of the era that you are talking about were delicious boats to sail. Fast upwind and rocket on a run barely leaving a wake.

Now they have quite distorted hullshapes to fit around their measurement rules and while it would be possible to produce the same shapes in strip planking it is impossible to do it in plywood anymore.

But the later boats like the Angelique and ones that followed were great sailing boats with very sophisticated by low cost (wooden wing masts) rigs.

MIK

graemet

24th August 2007, 11:54 PM

Boatmik

26th August 2007, 01:41 PM

Ah, that's right Analisa.

The hull was also more veed through the centrecase area which fined up the entry and reduced wetted surface too if I remember.

I originally had a glass Angelique built by the Qantas sailing club which I rerigged with a wooden wing mast, then I went to my first new boat, a holmes brothers Red Rog. Had crew problems for a couple of years and then when I went back with the Red Rog the whole Aero thing had happened and BOY did we have to sail hard to finish in the top third of the fleet at Connells point.

Loved the rigs on that era of NS. A cheapish over rotating wooden mast for excellent aerodynamics.

Who'd have thunk it!

MIK

Paul B

29th August 2007, 03:07 PM

I came across some plans for an NS14 a few years ago, another few years and I might have time to build one. This design is called a Delta V. It's a cedar strip built hull with marine ply deck, you can have a look at it here: http://www.nwmarinedesign.com/deltav.htm

Dunno if it's what you're looking for, but it's a nice little boat.

Boatmik

31st August 2007, 01:15 PM

The Delta is a cute little boat indeed, but not an NS14.

This is not to cast any doubt on Paul's suggestion, which is appropriate as a possible boat, but more to discuss the site's contention that it is an NS14 and to discuss what makes the NS14 different from almost anything else on the water.

NSs are about getting the maximum performance without a spinnaker.

Also they exploit every corner of the rule they are designed under. This boat is flat and wide with lots of wetted surface. Because an NS14 doesn't have a lot of sail area the class has worked towards lowering the drag of the hull - which is why the later wooden NS14s are so sweet to sail. The Delta has a spinnaker and has none of the normal NS fineness.

This is the delta - note how wide the first transverse section back from the bow is and how wide and dish shaped the sections through the middle and back of the boat are.

http://www.nwmarinedesign.com/dv3d.gif

Compare to a pic of a competitive NS from 10 years ago - the first of the Tequilas. the bows and sterns are even more fine now. The transverse sections are very feint but they are there - you can see how narrow they are in the front of the boat and how having the chine at the back gets rid of a lot of excess width.

http://www.ns14.org/images/stories/t96iso.gif

You can see the wall sidedness of the bow that lets them knife upwind in this pic.

http://pics.ns14.org/albums/2006-NSW-Travellers-Trophy-Taree-Manning-Point/NS14_TT_s_06_023.thumb.jpg

The other place the NS14s have developed is to reduce the amount of rocker in the hull - the fore and aft curve along the centreline. It is very small compared to the delta. Also the sterns have pushed in a lot narrower. This is good in drag terms but it means the narrower stern is less likely to pitch up in waves thus forcing the less buoyant bow underwater.

I don't mind the Delta at all as a standardish, slightly old fashioned hull - in fact it would look quite space aged compared to the normal run of European and North American designed boats.

I suspect the NS14 ply hulls we are talking about above would see it off in most normal conditions unless it was allowed to use its spinnaker and it wouldn't get close to the modern ones.

Best wishes
MIK

Boatmik

31st August 2007, 01:19 PM

G'day MIK,
...
I think I still have the Angelique plans somewhere.
Cheers
Graeme

Howdy Graeme,

If you did and had a digital camera and you could be bothered you would be welcome to send me some snaps of the plans

:-)

Not the slightest problem if you don't - it is just my curiosity factor (and love of NS14s)
MIK

b.o.a.t.

1st September 2007, 03:57 AM

Given that the original request was
"Construction from plywood, 2 man boat, main sail, jib and spinnaker. No trapeze as this will be a "learning to sail" boat for my kids & wife, upto 14 feet or 4.3 meters. (Yes the wife is keen about the whole idea )"

Might I respectfully suggest that a modern NS14 doesn't fit the bill ?
In fact, the class seems to have developed beyond a "beginners" class & looks more like a mini 18' skiff. With a similar budget required ?

Seems to me (and I'm 20years removed from Melbourne & paddling a slalom kayak on the nearest lee shore in any storm looking for a buzz) that Robert's best move might be to use a few weekends visiting each sailing club along his section of The Bay, talking to members about the classes they sail, why, & what's around. And maybe buy a 2nd hand boat & do it up. The own-build idea might be better left a year or three until the family has a better idea of what suits them.

He may yet end up in an odds'n'ends club rather like the Clayton Bay SC in SA, building & sailing a non-class boat that better fits the family fun implication.. a GIS, or something by Welsford, or even a Laker or similar out of the Build-a-Boat cattledog.

cheers
AJ

Boatmik

1st September 2007, 12:58 PM

Cheers AJ - it was a bit of a divergence - and a modern NS14 is a tricky beast to sail - having the original hulls in plywood restricted the tricky curves and hollows the new ones use - that made them a good compromise of speed and ease of sailing.

Of course the non-class area is the part of sailing that is booming - possibly with the exception of the PDRacers - which are booming as a class boat. The fleet there has gone from 75 up to 160 boats in the last year and a bit.

But I am on the edge of diverging ...

It is a good point. If you learn how to sail really well - even on a no spinnaker, no jib, no trapeze boat it takes very little time to work out how to use those other bits when you come across them. The biggest thing to understand is how to move the crew around the boat and get them in the right place and co-ordinating sail trim with changes in wind direction and speed and coordinating steering with sail trim changes.

You get those three things right and you can sail ANY boat really well. Maybe the first one becomes very unimportant in bigger boats anyhow.

So there is a valid point in building a non class boat. Usually it is way cheaper for a start - most class boats having gone down the path of having gear to adjust every single aspect of sail shape which adds a lot of expense.

Something like the boats you mention about will usually have around 5% of cost tied up in all the fittings, but conventional class racing boats often have a fittings bill around 30% of the total build cost. For senior dinghies it can be way more - I think to cover the fittings on a Sharpie or 505 starts to get up round the $3-4000 mark - that's enough to completely build and finish most non class boats of a similar size (to the 505 at least).

Most of the class boats at the beginning of this thread are at the more modest end of the range and some have restricted these sorts of cost to some degree. The sabre has some good restrictions on fittings for example - so represents the way that a lot of the other classes could have gone.

In general the cheapest way into a popular class boat is to buy a boat in the middle range of prices rather than build. You get almost the same money back at the end. But there need to be lots of active boats to stand a fair chance of selling.

Best wishes
MIK

graemet

1st September 2007, 10:08 PM

b.o.a.t.

2nd September 2007, 01:59 AM

AJ,
I agree. The argument is that the original NS14 concept would suit the specification to a "t", not the modern evolution of the class.
Cheers
Graeme

Agreed Graeme. What a pity more clubs haven't realised that the mass population entry level into sailing is a budget conscious, family friendly boat with good sea-keeping & manners. Quite aside from other commitments I have on weekends, my main barrier to club racing is the ridiculous cost to be competitive in anything other than Sabres or Paper Tigers. I just keep coming back to the Vagabonds I learnt in, and the Wright Intermediates I raced as a teen-ager. Strict one-design boats that cost couldn't escalate out of reach. We could win races with our 20y/o hull #5 & rigging Mk.1 against brand new boats. Not often, but the boats were similar enough to reward skill rather than depth of pocket.
Something like these perhaps. http://www.dinghy.pl/

Mik, maybe the wrong design was named Eureka ? Maybe it's time to knock up a Pacer analogue with PDR-like fittings, chisel its class rules in stone, & hawk it around the clubs as their salvation from oblivion...
cheers
AJ

Boatmik

20th November 2008, 01:40 PM

WELCOME to the XXXX GOLD BOAT BUILDING PROJECT.

http://www.xxxx.com.au/boat/images/normal/boatbuilder.jpg

Yep ... they have a link to here.

Here are some links to simple boats that work well
http://www.pdracer.info - simple, cheap sailboat that works
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans.htm - the mother lode - includes the kitchen sink
http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/ - simple canoe
http://www.instantboats.com/ - some simple boats including powerboats
http://www.pdracer.com - the best place to look at cheap boatbuilding technology and resources.

There is more general boatbuilding advice under this post.

Rik

28th June 2009, 04:00 PM

G'day MIK,
I raced NS14s for 30 years and built most of my own boats. I also ran the plans service for the Association when they had one. The first departure from the Javelin was the Analisa which took Spencer's lines and flattened the run aft and dropped the height of the stem. I had a fiddle with this concept with my third boat, at about the time the Angelique plans were released by the Association to replace the Javelin. Latterly, I flew a glass Superoo (Darryl Mannix) shell that I decked in ply. I think I still have the Angelique plans somewhere.
Cheers
Graeme

Hi Graeme,

I've just bought a timber decked, fibreglass hulled NS14 called Hullabaloo, with the number 1316. There are some pictures of it posted here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/39865863@N04/
I'm told I need to replace the deck so I'm hoping to find plans for one. Do you have any idea where I should start? Thanks, Rik

Rik

29th June 2009, 11:52 AM

Agreed Graeme. What a pity more clubs haven't realised that the mass population entry level into sailing is a budget conscious, family friendly boat with good sea-keeping & manners. Quite aside from other commitments I have on weekends, my main barrier to club racing is the ridiculous cost to be competitive in anything other than Sabres or Paper Tigers. I just keep coming back to the Vagabonds I learnt in, and the Wright Intermediates I raced as a teen-ager. Strict one-design boats that cost couldn't escalate out of reach. We could win races with our 20y/o hull #5 & rigging Mk.1 against brand new boats. Not often, but the boats were similar enough to reward skill rather than depth of pocket.
Something like these perhaps. http://www.dinghy.pl/

Mik, maybe the wrong design was named Eureka ? Maybe it's time to knock up a Pacer analogue with PDR-like fittings, chisel its class rules in stone, & hawk it around the clubs as their salvation from oblivion...
cheers
AJ

I wholeheartedly agree with you AJ. I'm very new to club sailing and I'm really surprised at how poor the participation rate is. My kids have both played soccer and even the small clubs around here have scores of junior members. Their club has almost a thousand. Meanwhile there are only about thirty active juniors at their first sailing club and their seems to be less at another club where we recently did a clinic. In year 5 or 6 I built a two person tobogan that wasn't technically much simpler than the PD looks to build. And, given the price of them, I really think you're right. The PD could well be a way to greatly increase sailing as a sporting option. And whether or not existing sailing clubs are interested,surely schools, PCYCs and other organisations could be approached to get involved.

I'd be interested in putting a little time into it over here in NSW, if anyone wanted to float the idea.

ausie

29th June 2009, 01:05 PM

Rik,

Have a look at the "Firebug" at the excellent web site at:-

www.firebug.co.nz

This little beauty was designed by the late John Spencer who designed many of the best known small perfomance dinghies over his lifetime.He was an expert at getting small boats to perform.

Firebug was conceived not long before he died & demonstrates this great designer's passion for making affordable boats available for all to able to build to get people back into sailing,be it to race or just for fun.The class has a clear set of rules which will keep boats competitive but not stifle minor design changes.

They are catching on in Sydney with several already at Ryde/Concord sailing club & had a stand at this year's Sydney Boat Show with a couple of boats under construction for all to see.

If you have the latest copy of AABB there is an interesting article there & lots more in previous editions otherwise their web site is chock full of information & pictures.

This design has really caught on & hundreds have been built.

Al :2tsup:

Rik

29th June 2009, 02:23 PM

excellent web site at:- www.firebug.co.nz (http://www.firebug.co.nz) ... small boats to perform.... affordable boats available...catching on in Sydney ...hundreds have been built. Al :2tsup:

They are a good looking boat with a very catchy name and very good website. I particularly like the links for community + school promotion. One thing I couldn't find on the site though was a measurement of performance (ave speed, top speed, or something) or a price.

I did read that "the cost is about one third the cost of a similar sized ready to sail boat" but no actual estimate of price, which I'd like because, frankly, 1/3rd of a similar sized readymade is still a lot of money for lots of people. That's one of the very appealing things about a self build PD. It costs a few hundred. Most kids and parents could afford that and my sailing club which isn't in a wealthy part of town could afford many more boats. Do you know the cost and performance?

Either way though, this low cost intro is one way to go to boost sailing juniors. Has anyone mounted a serious promotional push yet?

ausie

29th June 2009, 04:59 PM

Rik,

Give Ryde/Concorde a bell & get a lead to one of the boats that have sailed there.

Failing that,contact Peter Tait in NZ at Firebug HQ.I have spoken with him in the past & he is very forthcoming with information.

I remember reading on their site that it costs about $900-$1400 to build depending how much you make yourself(they have plans for all the fittings if you want to make your own).Many people seem to buy the mast,rigging & sail direct from NZ so it must be good value.

Peter would give you leads to all the OZ builders.

As far as speed goes,they are only 8' so are limited,but reading all the reports from NZ,they seem to handle heavy weather well without coming apart.John Spencer was one of the better designers of our time.

Go back to their site & look under "builder comments".You'll find many references to heavy weather sailing especially one towards the bottom from a fellow in Sydney.

Al.

Rabbs

15th August 2009, 11:39 AM

Hey Basicc,

I to am about to start a build with my son (hopefully soon anyway) but I looking at a Touring canoe with outriggers that I intend to make into covered platforms. From what I have researched I will be able to take it out into a number of conditions although I only intend to keep it on the lake. I think the idea of building something with my son is something I am truly looking forward to as it will be an excellent bonding exercise (hopefully) I am looking to get my father-in-law into it with us as well (plus he has the huge shed) I would be interested in knowing what you finally settled on and would love to see some pics

RossV

17th August 2009, 12:41 PM

I guess I'm the enthusiast for Firebugs in Sydney referred to on the Firebug.co.nz website.

I've sailed mine hard for three years and no breakages. Not bad! Apart from my ninety kg, she is often used by juniors who find her more challenging than the Sabots, but requiring less weight than the Spirals. Her 9mm thick bottom makes her pretty tough, it makes her incredibly easy to build too.

I've also given numerous sailing lessons to other adults, with no drama; not bad for an eight footer.

Her speed is restricted by her size, but she planes surprisingly easily and is the most manouverable boat I've sailed in fifty years. She handles conditions on the Parramatta river, ferry washes and all easily but I have not taken her to sea.

We hope to send a team to the South Island (NZ) champs in 2011.

My son plans to build one at Christmas, he should get the woodwork finished in a week and another week for painting. It's so quick because you can pre-asemble components before adding them to the basic structure, thus glue can be curing on one job while the next is worked on.