Entry Door design questions

[Brown Dog]

Hello all,

A mate has asked me to give him a price to build him a front entry door for the house he is currently building. He has sent me a sketch of what he had in mind and this is what I have come up with so far based on that sketch.

50385

It will basically consist of a M/T frame with an inset floating panel. My question concerns the contrasting detail on the face of the panel (ie. the horizontal strips). My idea for this is to cut trenches like sliding dovetails to slip in the contrasting strip and only glue at one end...so as to allow for any movement in the width of the panel.

My question is.... Do I need to do this to both sides of the panel ?.. I know its wise when veneering and such to do the same to both sides to prevent cupping.

Any other comments and suggestions welcome...thanks in advance.

cheers
BD:2tsup:

[silentC]

I don't think it's necessary, as the frame should prevent it from cupping. I think I'd like to see a mid rail or two in it though, rather than just a single floating panel.

BTW that guy better watch where he's walking, he's about to walk into a door jamb...

[echnidna]

If you use veneers up to 3mm thick gluing them straight into rebates should be reliable.

There isn't enough thickness in 3mm strips compared to panel thickness to create movement problems so you really don't need to do both sides of the panel.

If you use solid strips on a sliding dovetail only fix the centre of the strips so the movement is equal on both sides.

Veneer strips would give a much stronger panel than solid strips and be far easier to make

[Brown Dog]

I don't think it's necessary, as the frame should prevent it from cupping. I think I'd like to see a mid rail or two in it though, rather than just a single floating panel.

BTW that guy better watch where he's walking, he's about to walk into a door jamb...


thanks silent...I tend to agree about the mid rail. I can see a couple of benifits doing it that way ie. added strength and more important (too my back anyway) lighter panels for me to have to deal with :rolleyes: . I might have to talk to him about that...although it might be getting away from his original concept too much...his origianl sketch it of just a single slab with no frame.



BTW that guy better watch where he's walking, he's about to walk into a door jamb..

Of course he is about to walk into the jamb...he has no eyes :doh: :;



If you use veneers up to 3mm thick gluing them straight into rebates should be reliable.


thanks for the ideas echidna....I did think of using veneers...infact my mates original idea was to have inlayed 20mm x 3mm brass strips. However I was concerned about the cross grain situation it creates because I couldnt think of a way to attach them flush with the surface without gluing the whole length of the strip.

If I did use veneer would there be any danger of it coming apart over time with movement considering the cross grain setup ? Would the veneer/glue be flexible enough ?

Im quite concerned about movement with this design because of the differences in humidity.....as Im in Sydney and he is in Brissy. Im only guessing what the effects will be...but trying to allow for them as much as possible.



If you use solid strips on a sliding dovetail only fix the centre of the strips so the movement is equal on both sides.



that sounds like a good idea...do you have any ideas how to fix just in the middle without any fixings showing ?. I think if I did it with glue, as the strip is slid in it will spread the glue and end up gluing half of the strip :? .

thanks again for the help fellas

cheers
bd:2tsup:

[Different]

If you use veneers up to 3mm thick gluing them straight into rebates should be reliable.

There isn't enough thickness in 3mm strips compared to panel thickness to create movement problems so you really don't need to do both sides of the panel.

If you use solid strips on a sliding dovetail only fix the centre of the strips so the movement is equal on both sides.

Veneer strips would give a much stronger panel than solid strips and be far easier to make

Excellent Idea you could fix the centre tith a nice little brass dowel or silver or copper or some such.

Ross

[Harry72]

What are you going to make the centre panel out of, solid wood or mdf/torsion box?


Is that SU drawing to scale? Because that door looks about 10' high!

[Brown Dog]

G'day Harry

My mate wants it made from solid timber....He would prefer recycled hardwood if we can find the right stuff to match/compliment the floor and deck he has built.

Yep the drawing is to scale...the overall dimensions to the frame and sill are 2700 x 1250mm....so it is going to be a big bugger :o .


cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Harry72]

Being an exposed outside door that has a smooth finish(ie not a barn door)a solid wood panel will have splitting and warping problems eventually.
Thats why they make solid flat doors from a lamination of MDF covered in veneers and solid wood banding around the perimeter.
If solid panel doors had no movement problems they'd make the panels from crapiarta... it would be cheaper!

[IanW]

Being an exposed outside door that has a smooth finish(ie not a barn door)a solid wood panel will have splitting and warping problems eventually.
Thats why they make solid flat doors from a lamination of MDF covered in veneers and solid wood banding around the perimeter.
If solid panel doors had no movement problems they'd make the panels from crapiarta... it would be cheaper!

Um, Harry, how do you explain the countless thousands of solid-wood-panelled external doors in Europe & elswhere that are hundreds of years old and still perfectly sound? :?

And the crappy MDF-cored veneered piece of faecal material gracing my front entrance (9 yrs old) that is delaminating and flaking horribly?? :~

Cheers,

[echnidna]

I was wondering exactly the same thing Ian.

[Brown Dog]

Ian and Bob have a good point Harry.... In fact just the other week I was watching an episode of "This old House" on which they installed a very nice modern looking solid timber panelled door. (see link below)

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvprograms/houseproject/housetours/0,16615,1062246,00.html

this door is a little different in that, the design of the panel allows for expansion and contraction, but maintains a consistent gap between the edge of the panel and frame. It achieves this by having the panel made from tounge and grooved boards that thave the two outside boards fixed to the frame but the inside boards are free to move, with the extra width allowed for in the grooves. Now this does mean that gaps will come and go with the seasons, but this is taken care of with rubber weather seal in the grooves to block any drafts.

So if its good enough for a house in Boston, with its extreme weather... I dont see to much of an issue in sunny QLD's more moderate climate :;

Plus its not as though the door is fully exposed to the elements anyway. In this case the door will be inside a sort of atrium that protects it from the the direct weather.

My main concern with desiging this door is to allow for the inevetable expansion and contraction of the panel plus the door swelling a little and becoming wedged in the jamb...I think the frame and panel goes towards solving this problem.


cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Harry72]

Yes true, but look at how those doors are constructed, I betcha they are not a flat profile like a laminated panel.
The old world style doors are constructed like tongue and groove floor boards(floating joints between the individual boards)that are held captive by the frame work, its not a solid flat panel.(the barn door comment)

"this door is a little different in that, the design of the panel allows for expansion and contraction, but maintains a consistent gap between the edge of the panel and frame. It achieves this by having the panel made from tounge and grooved boards that thave the two outside boards fixed to the frame but the inside boards are free to move, with the extra width allowed for in the grooves."

So its not a solid panel... IMHO

A typical door construction that allows for weather, the way most old doors were constructed dating back centrys, this was an outside door(its inside now after building the area in)it is not a solid flat panel!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/oldstyledoor.jpg

These are solid panel type doors(my kitchen Im building from recycled wood, its my old floor boards the bench tops will be the old jarrah joist's and bearers)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/door1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/door2.jpg

[IanW]

In fact most of the 'good old' external doors I was referring to DO have solid panels.

It goes without saying that the panels 'float' - that's the whole idea of using panelled construction. And any external door on a decently-built house should be protected by a porch/awning/veranda, whatever, from all but the most determined weather.

The sticking on all of the old doors I've looked at is cunniningly contrived to shed water, (aided by generations of paint) so very little goes into the panel groove. That some undoubtedly does is borne out by my observation that when these doors do succumb to age & weather, it always seems to start in the bottom inside corners.

And I certainly WOULD NOT recommend crapiata, as it would have to be one of the least durable woods you could choose around here (though I'd lay bets it will outlast MDF comfortably). I'm planning to remake mine in Jarrah or something with a bit of built-in longevity, when that job comes round. (It's about # 1,429 on the 'to-do' list right now!)

Cheers,

[Brown Dog]

So its not a solid panel... IMHO


whether its a solid panel or not...if its made from timber not MDF, wont it still have the same cumulative expansion and contraction ?

eg. if the panel is made from 10 boards each 100mm wide,and with say a change of 10 % MC each board expands 3mm. Does it matter if the panel is designed to allow for the 3mm each board expands individually by using tongue and groove or allowing for the cumulative expansion, in the example 30mm (10 x 3mm), at the edges of a solid panel ? Which is basically still just a tongue and groove just a lot bigger.

Harry the exterior doors you have used as an example....were they designed that way specifically to combat the effects of being exposed to the weather ?

or

Were they built that way because of a particular style or also maybe when they were built the technology of the day (i.e. glue) made that design the most practical ?

After further discussion with my mate....we have decided to add a third rail at lock height, plus he has decided he likes the look of jarrah, and the horizontal strips will be made from silver ash.


cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Harry72]

" And I certainly WOULD NOT recommend crapiata"
Neither would I!

Yes that style door is designed to withstand the weather, thats why there are expansion gaps between every board.(well was before the 20 coats of paint)

Yes Glue tech and practical design... grab any outside door older than 60yrs(before modern pva/resin glues)and find a door that used glue, they didnt because the glue of the day was hideglue which is not known for its water permabilty.(to my knowledge)

Old style doors depended on mechanical held joints, things like nails bolts screws or wedged/drawed joints.

What Im trying to get at is, if you make a solid panel for outdoors that has no floating joints between the boards it will eventually warp and split open at the joints between the the boards. Fair enough it may take 10yrs but it will happen.
Remember an outer door goes through several heat cool cycles every day, gets wet and needs to absorb the effects of irate door slamming teenagers.
The outer frame will allow for expansion/contraction of the whole panel but not the weathering affects along the panel's joints.
Ian said a decent house has a porch/eves, so at times the door gets half exposed to the sun and half in the shade, what happens?... the top grain is expanded from the cool morning air and the bottom is drying out and in contraction.
Ever seen a outdoor table with a solid panel top?(excluding rustic slab tables)

[Brown Dog]

OK Harry now you have me worried/thinking.....:( . Though you have forced me to reconsider my design :2tsup:. thanks

Doing a bit more research, I have found some info on the the web that supports your idea that the joints may seperate over time, eg. one door manufacturer that I found that makes solid timber doors, says this about their panels.

'Structural hardwood V-grooved minimizes the possibility of a joint separation. Permanently bonded with watertype-1 glue."

But that also says permanently bonded :? .

I also found another door manufacturer that has doors with solid wood panels, but they are made up from two seperate 3/4" thick panels glued back to back with end grain facing oposite directions (ie split in half and outside faces glued together). The idea being, I guess if one face gets wet the other will help combat cupping. They seem to do the same for rails, and styles are actually engineered from 2 face veneers and 3 core blocks with grain orientated differently (all solid timber). The theory being that the more glued joints the more stable it is...I think

There does however seem to be a lot of doors that are claimed to be solid timber that appear to have panels made up from edge glued boards.. not tounge and groove. Most of the websites with these kind of doors dont explain how they are constructed though.




Remember an outer door goes through several heat cool cycles every day, gets wet and needs to absorb the effects of irate door slamming teenagers.
The outer frame will allow for expansion/contraction of the whole panel but not the weathering affects along the panel's joints.
Ian said a decent house has a porch/eves, so at times the door gets half exposed to the sun and half in the shade, what happens?... the top grain is expanded from the cool morning air and the bottom is drying out and in contraction.



Given that the conditions you mention will not be extreme. As far as Im aware this door will have no or at most, very little exposure to direct sunlight or rain...as I said the entrance in located in an atrium (not just eaves or a porch). Also there also wont be any "irate door slamming teenagers" for at least another 13 years and 9 months:D :wink: . Would I be wasting my time and my mates money if I go with a design that has solid wood panels made from glued up boards (even if I do implement some of the ideas I found on the web). :?

Im not really keen on the idea of using veneered MDF (or any sort of core for that mater) . I think it would end up being to far away from the original concept. And my mate would probably be better off getting a specialised door manufaturer to build it.

thanks again for your input fellas

cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Brown Dog]

Its been a while since I started this thread. But I have made some progress :)
And here is a couple of pics to proove it :wink:

68533
door frame dry assemled

68534
door and jamb

cheers
BD:)

[flynnsart]

Looks good:2tsup:Have they finished building the house yet for it?

Donna

[Brown Dog]

thanks Donna



Have they finished building the house yet for it?



Its getting there apparently. My mate is actually waiting for the door because last he told me, his bank wouldnt release any more funds until the house was at lockup stage. Which I think is just a technicality because apart from the front door its already past lockup interms of interior fit out.

cheers
BD:)

[Harry72]

Looking good BD!

[Brown Dog]

77400

Door in place with one coat of finish

[MALPT]

Very good job - looks great - well done! :2tsup:

[BrettC]

Nice job - so what was the final door height ?

[Brown Dog]

Nice job - so what was the final door height ?



A little less than 2700mm.....its a big bugger :)

[Vernonv]

Very flash BD. Good stuff.:2tsup:

[Sawdust Maker]

Have to admit, when I first saw the concept I didn't think much of it.
However now it's near finished I've decided that I quite like the final product!

Very nice door :2tsup:

[Ironwood]

I like it BrownDog, looks great!!

Looks better in the flesh than in the drawing.

[BrettC]

That's a serious door - well done again - also like your workspace :2tsup:

[Brown Dog]

thanks for the compliments guys :-:)

a more pics with the hardware installed

79047

79048

79050

79049

Apparently this door has attracted some interest from a couple of the subbies working on the house who do some work on some high end housing.....cant complain about that :D

cheers
BD:2tsup:

[TermiMonster]

She's a beauty, Brown Dog, Well done.
TM