Breadboard ends technique

[munruben]

So what technique do you use for breadboard ends on a table top. Would like to see some pictures too, in construction stage if possible.
I have only done this on a couple of projects using a spline joint but would like to hear from someone with more experience than I have with this type of joint.

[IanW]

I've used both a tongue routed on the ends of the (long) boards mating with a groove on the 'breadboard' end, and sliding dovetails. Both are easy to do with a router - the dovetail is less conventional, but looks impressive - no harder to do than a square tongue, either.

Sorry - no pics at the moment...

[specialist]

Can't say as I've ever had anything to do with breadboard ends. Perhaps a rough sketch?

[mick59wests]

On my first table (which I am still building) I have used a 3mm ply spline. This was a good sized fit for the single cut of my tablesaw, although in books I have read, they generally recommended 6mm ply. Basically I chose this method as it seemed the easiest join and this being my first table I knew I would have enough other problems to tackle!

Also, (but can't remember where I read it) I used ply as the spline and not hardwood. From memory it is to do with wood movement and splitting if you use a hardwood spline.

Unfortunately I did not get any photo during construction of the top.

cheers

Mick

[munruben]

Can't say as I've ever had anything to do with breadboard ends. Perhaps a rough sketch?
Haven't got a sketch but found this picture.

[munruben]

the dovetail is less conventional, but looks impressive - no harder to do than a square tongue, either.
I have seen the done like this but wasn't game to try it. Looked difficult and very impressive.

[mick59wests]

attached shows the breadboard end of my in progress tabletop

[Hickory]

Haven't got a sketch but found this picture.

The picture shows the finished product but what is inside the joint is what counts...
As you know the wood will shrink and grow according to climate changes and weather. Only problem is that the field is going a different direction than the ends and they react differently and expand & contract at different rates so the joint usually fails and creates checks etc. UNLESS you provide rome for the differences.

A tongue (or dovetail) is usually made on the field ends and a slot (groove, or dovetail) along the ends. The field is NOT glued to the ends. As you have pictured a set of dowels hold the tongue in the groove. BUT that is where the technique comes to play to prevent checking etc.

Drill a center hole through the tongue & the groove, this is the center where the least amount of movement is allowed. the drill a hole through both of the ends of the end pieces passing through both the tongue and groove. Seperate the pieces and elongat the hole in the tongue, keeping care to not differ the distance from the end but laterally from side to side so that when the field expand or shrinks it can move in and out with the weather. The center dowel hol remanes the same so that the field is kept in the center .

If you don't want to see the dowels then use a stop dowel joint from the underside.

[Ekim]

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/coffee-1.htm (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/coffee-1.htm)

Scroll down to the bottom and click "Next Page" and then on to page 3.

I don't have any practical experience with this type of joinery. In fact, my experience with any type of joinery is rudimentary.

HTH

Mike

[mick59wests]

John (and others),

have you had problems with movement and splitting from using splines? I wish I'd seen that other joint first as now I am concerned my breadboards are going to split somewhere from wood movement of the rest of the top as I have glued them with a long ply spline.

Any comments / experience appreciated. I can wait and see if it happens or saw them off and use the tongue/groove/dowel method.

thanks

Mick

[IanW]

......I am concerned my breadboards are going to split somewhere from wood movement of the rest of the top as I have glued them with a long ply spline.


NOT a good move! I guess you can simply wait and see, and deal with problems as they arise. You say you used 3mm ply, so it's possible the ply will give way before the wood, depending on how thick/tough it is, or the glue will creep enough to accomodate.

Sometimes we get away with flouting 'the rules'. Many, many years ago I made my first panelled doors for a pine cabinet, and in my ignorance, I glued the panels into the frame, thinking I was doing a good thing. Some time later, I started to learn a lot more about why things are done the way they are. So I watched those doors closely for another 10 years of annual moisture cycles, but the damn things remained steadfastly in one piece. It was a pretty ordinary piece of furniture, my first effort at panelled doors, and much of it was made from scavenged offcuts. Had it been constructed of something expensive, I reckon those panels would have self-destructed in the first year. Sod's law, or fools luck, or something.......

Cheers,

[silentC]

I built a little jewellery cabinet once and negligently glued the base to the carcase. I realised my faux pas and so the crown moulding was fixed on with sliding dovetail keys. The next day, the crown moulding was a mm or so short of the back but the base was still in place. So there you go, a walking contradiction in one small piece. Maybe it's a case of give it an inch and it will take mile, but give it nothing and it will either just sulk in the corner or tear itself apart.

[Rocker]

I have three dining tables in the house at present, and none has breadboard ends. If you screw cleats underneath, the top can't cup.

Rocker

[IanW]

..... If you screw cleats underneath, the top can't cup.
Rocker

Rocker, IMO, breadboard ends are very unlikely to prevent cupping, anyway - they probably have much more visual than structural effect, particularly on thinner tops. If keeping things pinned down is your aim, then as you suggest, some well-placed and properly attached cleats are much more likely to do the job.

Cheers,

[mick59wests]

the breadboard ends were suppose to fill two purposes:
1. Stop the ends from cupping
2. Add a feature (you can see this from the picture I have posted).

I did alot of reading but was only worried about movement with the tabletop being attached to the base and have learnt about buttons and how to use them. I hadn't thought about the movement by attaching breadboards.

I'm still thinking of redoing the ends

PS to rocker: I love your tenon jig and will probably make this before attempting the base, however I'm at the stage where I'm still trying to work out how a guide bar works!!!

cheers

Mick

PPS: I think I'll put my signature something like:

Lucky I've gotten into woodwork because sometimes I'm as thick as two planks! :D

[Rocker]

Mick,

The purpose of the guide bars is to keep the face of the tenoning jig precisely parallel to the table-saw's blade. The jig article suggests making them from brass bar stock; but you may find it easier to use 3/8" wide strips ripped from a kitchen cutting board instead.

Rocker

[munruben]

John (and others),

have you had problems with movement and splitting from using splines?
As I said in my original post, I have only done this on a couple of projects and in the last couple of years, so guess time will tell. No problems so far though.

[TomH]

Hi John,

I turned a old oregon door into an outdoor table about 8 years ago. I used breadboard ends, mainly because my long boards were not long enough. As it was an outdoor table I had a gap between the long boards, so lateral movement was not a concern. I used dowel joints exclusively, as I did not have the machinery to cut splines. The table has sat outside (somewhat undercover), and still looks like new. I was concerned that the breadboard ends might sag over time, but so far so good.

Cheers,

Tom