catboat or skiff or ...? [Archive]

thirsty

18th July 2007, 09:33 PM

Hello everyone,

Another new guy looking for guidance. I have been lurking for a while and have tried to take in many of the threads to inform myself of the pros and cons of different designs and construction methods.

My wife and I are keen to to do some sailing/weekend cruising/fishing in Moreton Bay in the future and I am considering building a boat which i have had a strong urge to do for sometime. To rub it in my best mate went a built himself a 16' Glen L Malahini pwerboat in 10 months with his 82 yr old retired cabinetmaker father - this has only hardened my resolve!

Anyhow I have so far narrowed the list to the ones below and would appreciate any comments regarding the designs or suggested designs which may suit.

My criteria is as follows:

Modern design and efficient construction method
preferably sheet ply
good support / advice / plan instructions
Around 16' - 18' (easy to get off and on trailer)
shoal draft (around 1', 2' max) board up or otherwise
suitable to beach
simple rig - one sail rigs look attractive but would also go for a conventional or yawl rig
safe and seaworthy for novice sailors (but good performance - I admire Michael Storer's approach to boat design when he says it has to perform well. I would rather start out with a reef in the sail and as my experience grows let it out for more performance - easier to make a fast boat slow than the other way around from my novice observations)
relatively dry and spacious cockpit (I'm 6'2" and my wife is not a shorty)
suitable for overnighting or ample capacity to stow camping gear with boom tent (not sure here yet)
suitable for an outboard and good under power
"bang for buck" or the most boat for the money
Looks good!

Short list is:

Catfish Beachcruiser
NIS18
Goat Island Skiff
Scruffie 16
CMD Catbird 18
TS16 & TS18 (is there a modern design version?)
Redfin 520

I really like the clean lines of the Bolger transoms with the outboard placed centrally and the inboard rudder. Havent been able to find much info on the catfish other than there was some kind of update by Bolger on the Bolger and Friends website which changed the height of the sides and seating layout which sounded like quite an improvement to the design. No drawings to refer to though.

Like so many others I have noted, I am considering the steps to take on my way to building the boat. I have read enough about the GIS to feel confident that I could take it on first up given there is so much support and information available from the designer.

I should add that I would prefer to use an Aussie designer but I am having trouble finding the right boat fit my needs. I love the lines and design engineering and performance of the GIS but it might not be quite suitable for Moreton Bay cruising when it gets a bit choppy.

I have looked at David Payne's designs but fear they may be a little out of my depth.

The scruffie and redfin are kits and this is ok. The NIS18 seems a big project but perhaps buying the ply kit would fasttrack it a bit which would certainly cut down the hours. The interior layout looks attractive too with the offset centreboard. So many features and choices - a great problem to have!

Anyway, your input would be appreciated as I have learned so much already and am keen to join the club.

Cheers.:)

bitingmidge

18th July 2007, 10:15 PM

thirsty,

Send Mik and email and ask him about his "secret" new bigger version of the GIS, I reckon it'll be perfect for you.

I used to live at Manly, and sail the GIS in Waterloo Bay and beyond, but it is an open dinghy and you'd need care to cross the open parts of the Bay in crook weather.

Having said that, you'd need care in any of the boats on your list.

Depending on what you mean by "overnighting" I wouldn't bother attempting to sleep aboard anything that wasn't a trailer sailer.. so the TS and NIS are about the only things left on your list if you don't want to camp ashore!

You are correct in terms of ease of construction with the GIS, if you want to check one out, send me a PM.

Cheers,

P

Boatmik

18th July 2007, 11:28 PM

Howdy, It all depends on what ends up appealing to you the most.

The NIS18 is a lot of building compared to the others as it has the enclosed cabin and self draining cockpit. Great boat though - but there is almost as much building in it as the larger 23 because the 23 retains the same simplicity.

One boat I would strongly suggest to you is the Bolger Oldshoe - it sails well and has a shallow draft keel. It is a lot shorter than the others but is quite rough water capable. I did an article about a test sail a long time ago and it is a bit like owning the cockpit of a 25ft boat without the expensive bits (cabin, keel, big mast and sails, winches). Has a good space for the outboard though!

There was one on the Marina at the Goolwa Wooden boat Festival and no-one could believe it was a 12ft boat - it feels and looks much more like a 16 footer. Sio it's about the lightest keelboat you can get.

Be aware that it has a flat bow like the Micro, Martha Jane and AS29. Some people like that bold statement (me included) but the builder of the boat pictured here extended the bow forward to a point.

All the other boats have their strengths and weaknesses, some more or less so.

I'll let others bring that discussion to a head of steam...

Best wishes

Michael.

Deefa

19th July 2007, 09:32 AM

G'day Thirsty,

Have you had a look at Ross Lillistones Phoenix III at http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/ (http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/) . It seems to fit most of the criteria that you have listed. As well as being a SEQld local (easily accessable for support), Ross provides a very detailed set of plans/building instructions. A couple of members of this forum have started builing this boat. Haven't seen any recent posts regarding their progress. There are also posts on Duckworks site http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/lillistone/index.htm (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/lillistone/index.htm) on Phoenix III.

thirsty

19th July 2007, 10:33 AM

Thanks bitingmidge,

Having further consulted with SWMBO, a cabin is looking like a requirement to keep warm, sleep in if needed and hide in should it rain.

So I have narrowed it down to the NIS18, Scruffie with a cabin, Redfin 520, TS 16/18, (hard to ignore their popularity which makes it easier to sell down the track should I want to upgrade) or perhaps even the Bolger Chebacco. I am trying to stay under 20' as it seems cost and time starts to really blow out once you get above that size, also for ease of handling. I dont know much about the redfin other than the basic info on the website and would be interested if anyone had any experience or knowledge on it? It looks like a modern TS18 to me but am I missing something? I am wary of the scruffie being a little slow, I spoke to a TS16 owner once and he didn't think much of their performance, but they sound well designed and safe boat.

Many thanks for the feedback and offer to check out the GIS. I would love to build one but it doesnt quite fit the needs. If only their was an 18 footer with a cabin and.........

Cheers Brett.

thirsty

19th July 2007, 10:37 AM

Thanks BoatMik,

I checked out the oldshoe and it sounds like great little ship. I have since narrowed the criteria and a cabin looks mandatory now so will have to leave that one. Dont have a 18' GIS with a cabin on the drawing board do you??.. :)

Many thanks
Brett.

Boatmik

19th July 2007, 11:53 AM

You have moved to a cabin so the oldshoe is out but the Micro at 16ft is in. I have a friend that sails his all over South Australia offshore.

It is simpler than either the Scruffie or the NIS.

The NIS will be by far the best sailor in all conditions. The Micro will never let you down in any conditions though not quite as fast. The Scruffie is nowhere near the same sailing capability as these other two.

Funny how I'm comfortable to start talking once my own boat design is out of the picture!!!!

MIK

b.o.a.t.

20th July 2007, 02:13 AM

G'day Thirsty
Grab a copy of Australian Amateur Boat Builder magazine #57 - might still be in your local newsagent - due for #58 about now. Has a review of Barrie Armstrong's Redfin 520 & development. Even allowing for a designer's natural enthusiasm for his own work, it seems to have much to commend it. If your newsagent hasn't got it, boat suppliers such as Duck Flat (in SA) or maybe Boatcraft Pacific carry back issues. Or you can order them from the publisher http://www.boatbuilder.com.au/ In fact, grab a few back issues & do some serious drooling... ;-)

If it must have a cabin, Jarcat 5 or 6 is probably the most boat you can get for the money, albeit aesthetically challenged. Jarcat is also a Brissie-based design with a fair few out there already.

John Welsford (NZ) does some gorgeous small cruisers with proven rough weather ability. I gather his plans are less friendly than some other designers, although he is at least as accessible on-line as Mik to answer questions & advise on variations.

TS16 is a great boat - a dinghy with a cuddy - too cramped to be a 'serious' cabin. I'd cheerfully own another. Needs reefing points. Mine didn't & was too much a handful in heavy weather. However, at 6'2" & 100kg I could walk all around the gunwales, no trouble. How many 16 footers can you do that on? As a cruiser, it would be easier with a different rig. Maybe this one... http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm)

hope this helps
AJ

thirsty

20th July 2007, 01:58 PM

Thanks everyone

I have a bit more to go on now and will certainly check out the article in the aabb magazine on the redfin. AJ how does the TS18 compare? It doesnt seem to get much press against the 16 but would appear to have all the same traits with a bit more comfort?

As for the bolger micro BoatMik, I dont know if it will grow on me even though I have a love of brutally efficient things, it just doesnt pull my strings like a catboat or some of the other sleek designs. What an innovative thing though. I am learning that Bolger was a brave designer and all power to him!

Thanks deefa the phoenix III is lovely and a hard choice between it and the GIS. But having further consulted SWMBO a cabin is now a requirement so I am looking a little bigger I suppose.

Falling in love with the NIS18 and Bolger Chebacco at the moment. They both also appear to have good support networks which seems a big asset for a newbie. Worked on and built plenty of fast things with two and four wheels in the past so it will be an interesting journey to learn some boat building skills!

Cheers everyone and if there are any more suggestions please bring them on.

b.o.a.t.

20th July 2007, 08:41 PM

Thanks everyone

I have a bit more to go on now and will certainly check out the article in the aabb magazine on the redfin. AJ how does the TS18 compare? It doesnt seem to get much press against the 16 but would appear to have all the same traits with a bit more comfort?

G'day Thirsty

The TS18 is a significantly bigger volume boat - closer to full sitting head-room for real people. But I've never sailed one. TS16 is a big dry cuddy on a 16' dinghy which is now a hotly contested racing class. It would reward cutting the top off & re-doing as a flush-deck several inches taller. In fact, there's an article by a bloke in either AABB #56 or #57 who did pretty much that.

Chebacco - I love the looks & shoal draft concept, but came to the conclusion it's a stretched TS16 as far as comfort goes. And lacks TS16's manoevreability. However it would be _much_ cheaper to rig..

cheers
AJ

Boatmik

21st July 2007, 12:13 AM

Good comments in the post immediately above AJ, How did you get to be so smart!!!
:-)

MIK

mark_dugong

22nd July 2007, 02:25 PM

g'day thirsty,
If you are feeling adventurous why not build the Bolger Micro Navigator.
Handle the entire rig from the spacious (for 16') cabin and good protection from the elements (less fatigue) plus two big bunks. Should be easy to build as it is a Micro with an added cabin house.
You could sail around Australia in that one!
Cheers
Mark

b.o.a.t.

23rd July 2007, 12:51 AM

Good comments in the post immediately above AJ, How did you get to be so smart!!!
:-)

MIK

Dead easy MIK
I sat all hunched-up on the porta-potti in the cabin of my TS16 with knees around my ears & a crick in my neck & thort "there has _got_ to be a better way to do this!" (All my best thinking is done on the loo.)
I now apply the 'loo test' to all cabins. Also the "lean-back-on-seat-with-feet-up-&-a-glass-of-port-in-hand" test. Not many small boat cabins pass this one either.
Oh, yeah.... and I read nearly everything I can find that you wrote (and a few other designers besides)
;-)
AJ

b.o.a.t.

23rd July 2007, 10:41 AM

Question for MIK...
From your early Duckery days, do you remember Murray Isles' Grey & Chestnut Teals? Were any built ? Were they any good?
cheers
AJ

mark_dugong

24th July 2007, 10:41 AM

Boatmik

24th July 2007, 11:31 AM

G'day AJ,
Of course having looked at the plans, I can say that Bolger's Micro Navigator easily fulfils both your loo test and the glass of port test as well as being one tough little yacht but possibly not as fast as the TS16-18, but total weather protection!-I mean like you have the equivalent to a wheelhouse in that little beauty.
Cheers
Mark

Ha - a great boat! But if I was sailing offshore I would go with the original Micro any day.

I just think about what a big wave would do to those windows. There is some protection because the hull is so buoyant and light and is likely to rise to almost any sea. Maybe for bays, lakes and rivers and to poke out into the sea on a good weather report.

The original micro is as nuggety as you can get. And its lower windage and greater sail area will make it a much better sailer all the time but particularly when deep reefed in a blow - maybe you would have about 40sq ft of sail up and the cabin would be almost equal to that.

The Navigator would be very comfy bay or lake sailing in winter (or poking offshore on a good weather report) - I can smell the coffee brewing now!

MIK

mark_dugong

24th July 2007, 03:02 PM

b.o.a.t.

25th July 2007, 11:00 PM

Hi Mik,
I defer to your greater wisdom oh deeply flawed one!-:2tsup:
But Thirsty did say he was looking for a Bay yacht and the rest of Qld . waters are often quite protected. Oh and the cabin would protect from those Qld summers also.
Thanks again for your comments
Cheers,
Mark

G'day Mark
Thirsty said he was looking for a Moreton Bay cruiser. The southern part of the bay amongst the islands is protected. (And muddy & mosquito & sandfly infested & I loved every inch of it...) The northern part up near Moreton & Nth Straddy & Bribie Islands is a nasty lumpy piece of work in a blow. Square waves. Fine in a canoe (oddly enough) but beats the stuffing out of anything heavy or square. Like speedboats. Or Micros with large cabins. Especially the 3-4M shallows covering most of the western side.
cheers
AJ

mark_dugong

26th July 2007, 11:28 AM

G'day AJ,
I would agree with you that the Northern Moreton Bay banks can be a dangerous piece of water, having sailed through and over the top of it from Northern Moreton Is. lagoon (an excellant shelter for a shallow draught vessel), as well as across from Tangalooma to Deception Bay and other sundry adventures in that beautiful part of the Bay. But it is like many shoalwaters-you pick your weather and tide. You would probably remember the tragic loss of the four men in a large sea going Power boat who inadvertantly tried to cross those Northern banks when a heavy southerly swell was working its' way in.
I remember that in particular as I was surfing across the Brunswick River bar with "Dugong' on same heavy swell and the speedo hit twenty knots and my mate lost his hat. The photo shows a relieved crew after a successful crossing.
The Micro is very capable little cruiser, and large windows can be dangerous in heavy conditions, but who is going to be sailing across the North Moreton Banks in anything! in heavy conditions.
Cheers,
Mark

b.o.a.t.

26th July 2007, 03:31 PM

G'day Mark
Don't remember that incident. Been gone from Qld for 25 yrs. I do remember a couple that sailed in from the UK one year taking the direct path to the river mouth. Can't remember the details - I think they were doing ok until the rudder got ripped off or something. A rescue Shark Cat that went to get them was also flipped. Ch.9? filmed a Ch.7? Jetranger lifting a couple of people off the inverted Shark Cat hull on its skids.

A long time ago, a mate & I paddled a canadian from Nudgee Beach to Bishop Island & back (that gives you an idea of how long ago....) The weather turned a nasty easterly on the return trip. We couldn't see over the chop from in the troughs, so they were well over a metre high. And only about 3 boat lengths apart. And confused. Hardly shipped a drop, until we landed through the surf. A couple of speedboats that nosed out from Serpentine Creek copped a hiding though. Both turned & ran away after only a minute or two.

Agree - Micro is a great little boat, & Micro Nav would be a great fair waters boat.
cheers
AJ

Boatmik

26th July 2007, 08:54 PM

Great Photo Mark,

Funny how square flat bottomed boats give a nicer smoother ride than a more conventional shape most of the time. But you do get the occasional huge bang if you stamp on a head sea partway through a tack!!!

MIK

mark_dugong

28th July 2007, 12:02 PM

G'day Mik'
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes you do get a smooth ride with the 'Dugong'-another experienced yachting friend felt the same way-someone also told me that the experience of sailing a wooden boat is more "organic" and you can feel the ocean with a wooden boat.
But as Bolger says every now and then you will experience a loud crash from the flat bottom bow as she hits a wave-but it isn't often and just a bit of wake up call.
Structurally the bow of the 'Dugong' and the other Bolger squares I have seen are very strong and mine has gone over six foot breaking waves and as you know it's the landing on the other side of the wave (nothing broke) that rattles your teeth and will test the boat's structural integrity.
cheers
Mark
This I am told, is a fun Bolger boat and can be seen on Moreton bay crewed by sailors with big smiles.

thirsty

31st July 2007, 06:58 PM

Hi guys, sorry I have been of the air for a while - work/life etc. got in the way again!

Thanks for all the comments, I am enjoying the discussion on the Micro and it would seem very suitable for the bay. My attitude towards it changes every time I see a photo of one - sometimes I dont mind it, sometimes it just looks ugly. :doh:
It is growing on me though. If I had to pick one it would be the standard boat - the navigator looks like a houseboat!

I think I will reserve my judgement until I see one in the flesh - I'm not in a hurry and will be seeking out any boats on my short list to check out before commiting to anything.

My short list is still (in no order):
Bolger Micro
Long micro?
Bolger Chebacco (with a raised cabin)
NIS18
TS18

Any other contenders?
Any ideas on ranking these in order of building time and difficulty?

Cheers.

Deefa

31st July 2007, 08:21 PM

G'day Thirsty,

You're "favourites" list of boats is very similar to mine....maybe slightly different order. My favourite is the Chabacco....decided to build the smaller sister first and am close to completing Bobcat (see my earlier thread)....watch for launching pics in a few weeks.

I did send for the study pack on the NIS18 which I thought would have been great here in Moreton Bay, but when I did a tally on the complete building costs (with full pricing from Rob Ayliffe) I decided to build something with a smaller end price tag.

I kept a watch on a Micro being built here in Brisbane a couple of years ago. Seemed like a very functional boat when it was finished. If you are interested in having a look over it I may be able to track down it's whereabouts. Send me a PM if you would like to follow it up and I'll see how we go.

Boatmik

31st July 2007, 08:26 PM

Howdy Thirsty,

Years ago when I worked for Duck Flat in Adelaide there was a chap building a Micro in the workshop - he'd hired a space and was working on it at his leisure.

At that time DF was in Flinders St in the city so they used to get heaps of people just popping in for a look at what was happening.

There were a bunch of regulars who were from one of the proper "yacht clubs" and they were looking at building a large cat or a large riverboat - they used to turn up once or twice a week to see what was happening in the workshop and to discuss their own project. Anyway they used to pour scorn on the little Micro.

Week after week it went on - but the curious thing was as the Micro slowly progressed the scorn gradually reduced until they actually started to talk about the possibilities of small seaworthy little boat - they had lots of sea experience and could see that it was buoyant enough, stable enough and strong enough.

One day I caught their ringleader, Jim, looking at the profile of Micro from a distance.

He said "I'm really fascinated by that 1" step down from the foredeck sweep to the start of the cockpit. Like it is really not necessary. I've been trying to work out why Bolger put it in."

He was there for probably about 15 minutes - standing quiet and focussed - then he came over and said, "I've worked it out - you know if you changed anything about Micro even a tiny amount the result would be appallingly ugly."
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1329/961111154_2084e6e10c.jpg
Note that lovely flat wake - mmmmmm.

Best wishes
MIK

mark_dugong

1st August 2007, 10:58 AM

G'day
Yeah what a little beauty!!!
Yes, Thirsty there is at least one guy in Brissie who has one, I met his brother Martin at the top of the Sandy Straits and he was sailing it onto to Wathumbah about 2/3 up Fraser Is. and enjoying hisself immensly. Probably the same one Deefa saw.
Yes the Micro Navigator is a bit of a challenge for the perception of what a yacht is but Bolger is like that. In regard to the Bolger he says Mik-
" With no openings on her side, all her hatches properly on centreline, and various adjustable openings for ventilation, weathering a storm at sea or just waiting out a downpour at anchor with the companionway open but dry under the longer house overhang, should be just as safe as possible in such a small craft". I wonder what sort of storm he is talking about?
"At sea, Micro can always stand more reserve buoyancy, now multiplied by this house."
Whaddya reckon? And just guessing, the Bolger Micro might be the quickest and easiest build.
Cheers Mark

thirsty

1st August 2007, 07:56 PM

Hi everyone,

That is a lovely shot of the Micro and keaps getting me back in every time. Probably one of the best paint shemes for it also - very flattering.

(The ratbag in me wants to build one just to paint a WW2 fighterplane style sharks head on it! :D I can't understand how anyone could resist!)

As I learn more and more about the different designs I can only find one area of the micro that scores a bit low in my criteria than most others and it is the draft. It's the only area that might be a negative around the sandbanks and shallows of Moreton Bay and beaching it when we want to stop for a while. That and launching maybe on dodgy ramps. If it had the offset centreboard from a NIS18 I would be close to sold. I have seen Jim Michalak's Music Box and it looks good but I would prefer a centreboard or keel I think before a leeboard.

Micro would appear a real winner on a number of counts particularly build time compared to my other favourite, the NIS 18. I am now beginning to understand the journey that is picking a boat design.

Just to throw another issue out there - how does the Micro and NIS (ketch and yawl versions) compare for ease of motoring? Any issues there?

Cheers.

b.o.a.t.

1st August 2007, 08:34 PM

G'day Thirsty
Just to be a nuisance, you could also look at a couple of Murray Isles designs - Chestnut Teal & Grey Teal - at http://www.islesdesign.com/designs/menu.html
Mik would be better placed than I to comment on whether they performed as well as hoped.
cheers
AJ

thirsty

2nd August 2007, 04:38 PM

Thanks AJ

Just checked the site out and must say the designs looks really good on paper and certainly fit most of my criteria. What is also attractive is that the blurb mentions that they are a collabaration between Isles and Duck Flat Boats which would seem a good thing (from my limited knowledge).

OK who can give me the 'skinny' on these??

Cheers..

Boatmik

2nd August 2007, 06:40 PM

The advantage of the Micro over the others in consideration is that you would be on the water sooner rather than later and you don't need flash bits!

The draft is an issue as far as launching but it is also what provides that huge seaworthiness factor too.

One additonal thought about the MICRO navigator is that one of the US PDRacer is built with a cabin (Seaflea) and at the last regatta he found it went faster upwind with those big windows open!

MIK! :-)

mark_dugong

5th August 2007, 12:28 PM

G'day everyone,
Happy Sunday,I must say Thirsty that I don't think that sailing in thin water would be an issue with the micro. The keel is long (directional stability) and shallow and I don't think you would draw much over a foot, and once you are in water that shallow you could easily run aground in a dinghy. One addition I would consider with a small yacht like the Micro is legs! Just a couple 4x2's lengths with a plywood pad hinged to the bottom of them, these you would clamp to the side of the Micro to keep her level when you sit on a sandbank some where, I have heard they are useful although the 'Dugong' being flat bottom and a leeboarder doesn't need them.
Your legs, you will use to push said yacht off a sandbank at sometime or another, one of the joys of a shallow draft yacht is sailing over shallow water especially when it is clear like out at Day's Gutter off southern Moreton Island and you can see all the little creatures that live on the bottom and follow the dolphin as he guides you thru the channel. Doesn't that sound like fun, that's because it is!
Cheers
Mark

thirsty

8th August 2007, 10:12 AM

Hi everyone,

Ok, I am stuffing around on the web last night looking at Micro sites telling myself "yes, you will grow to love it" and I show the better half a photo of one (the one with the lovely flat wake Mik) and she just looked at me as if to say "that's the best you can do after all these hours searching for a boat design"... :). I cant blame her - i had the same reaction. It didnt seem to matter when I said encouragingly "those holes in the flat bow are boarding stairs honey". She is cool though and said whatever I choose is fine.

Designs heading the field at the moment are the Micro, Chestnut Teal and the Bolger Catfish Beachcruiser (updated version with revised sides and seating arrangement). I have taken the advice of many and made a choice to keep the size and/or complexity down otherwise I will be overwhelmed as a first project. So therefore the Chebacco and NIS18 are out for now.

I havent been able to contact Murray Isles as every one of the email addresses on his website bounces and I havent got around to ringing NZ yet. If anyone knows a builder/owner of a Chestnut Teal or Grey Teal I would really like to talk to them about it. I cant find anything on the web on the design other than on the designers website. These boats have a lot of features I like but there is nothing like real life feedback from an owner builder. It has been amazing how much I have learned about certain designs on this forum (thank you everyone), and by reading about owners building projects and sailing experiences.

I am looking at the Bolger Catfish Beachcruiser again with interest. I like the look of these and the bigger Chebacco. Just not sure about the camp style cuddy and what protection it offers. If it had a cabin like the micro or chebacco I would be even keener. The revised boat seems an improvement and has the option of centreboard or keel also.

Mark, your comments only inspire me to get going even quicker. It is those moments that my wife and I would love to experience.

Ok, back to my Micro therapy - I think I can, I think I can.......

Cheers, Brett.

bitingmidge

8th August 2007, 10:21 AM

Now to be heretical.

Thirsty, I share your pain. I would love to own a Micro for all sorts of snobbish reasons, but realistically all of the above are going to cost you money that you are unlikely to recover.

For a first cruising boat, why not something like this (http://sydneyboating.boatpoint.ninemsn.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?UsedBoatID=1133726&TabID=95204&Alias=sydneyboatingAU)
You won't lose a bean, a tried and proven design, and you can be out there having fun a year earlier, learning what you really need for the next one.

Cheers,

P (ducking now!)
:D :D :D

Deefa

8th August 2007, 09:21 PM

Have to agree with Midge, if your'e after an inexpensive t/s you couldn't go wrong with the Careel 18 to get started. You could never build an 18 footer for that price (supposing you have to buy all the material at retail prices). My 12.5 ft catboat will cost almost that much by the time I include the price of a sail, trailer and 2 hp outboard.

If you must build something and you want it prettier than Micro how about one of these Pocket Cruisers www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html (http://www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html) My choice is the 17.5 ft Catboat.

bitingmidge

8th August 2007, 10:37 PM

Declaration of interest: (sort of).

We spent what seemed like an entire lifetime cruising every nook and cranny of Moreton Bay in a Careel 18, two of our kids were just about born on board, the eldest was three when we got it. Had to sell it when fitting 26 feet of Midges into an 18 ft boat for a week started to get a bit .... well let's just say they were underfoot!!

I've been a member of the Careel Association in Qld for nearly 30 years too, and what a stirling bunch they are! :2tsup:

(Just another diversion from all the other stuff! :D )

Cheers,

P
:cool: :cool:

Boatmik

9th August 2007, 01:30 AM

So Midge, do you mean that sailing the Careel made it seem like a lifetime!!!

MIK :-)

I like 'em actually - not the greatest of boats but not bad either in terms of moving a couple or a young family around in a simple sort of way.

So I guess the question is - are you a builder for the joy of it or is building a means to get on the water. Do you want something mainstream or do you really have to have something unusual.

I'd certainly make sure the sails of the Careel were in good condition - that's the biggest single area of expense for older boats that people tend to overlook.

MIK (still!)

bitingmidge

9th August 2007, 08:03 AM

So Midge, do you mean that sailing the Careel made it seem like a lifetime!!!

Nah, it took a lifetime to get anywhere! :p

We used to carry a roll of dental floss for stitching sails on the run!

:D :D :D
P

mark_dugong

10th August 2007, 11:07 AM

Boatmik

11th August 2007, 12:25 AM

Midge - theres a bloke spouting poetry about Careel 18s - it is time to wield the big guns and give him something to write poetry about!!!

Where's your light bulb?

Ah, there

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=22079

bitingmidge

11th August 2007, 12:38 AM

Crikey that was well spotted Mik!

I must borrow it back and get a decent photo eventually. Then do another one with the GIS in it I suppose!

Cheers,

P
:D

mark_dugong

11th August 2007, 02:55 PM

OK youse asked for it
Second verse
"There's a blue one, ther's a yellow one,ther's one in a light bulb,
And they are all made of ticky tacky ,
And they all look just the same". ( More apologies to Pete Seeger)
I like the one in the light bulb though.
Cheers
Mark

arbordg

14th August 2007, 10:58 AM

Well BM,
I just have this to say.
Little boaties, little boaties,
Little boaties all made out of ticky tacky,
Little boaties, little boaties,
And they all look just the same. (with apologies to Pete Seeger)
Cheers
Mark

Mark - actually your apologies should go to Malvina Reynolds, the old folkie who penned that particular scathing/sweet ditty excoriating the cheap sameness that too often springs from the miracle of mass production. Though it's true, Pete loved the song (and Malvina into the bargain) and sang it often and well.

Actually, as Peter says, there's nothing wrong with a well-built used fg sailboat - if your intent is to get on the water without spending a lot of time and money. To those of us who like to build boats, maybe that approach is lacking. But even I am thinking about going that way for a ski boat for my two teenaged boys. At least the Oz & Kiwi versions of the small sailboat have a bit more character and function than all the designs on offer here is the US - where design is too often driven by the Marketing Department, and too seldom by the Naval Architect or boat designer. As, Mik would say, "horses for courses".

"Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't" -- Pete Seeger

mark_dugong

14th August 2007, 06:38 PM

G'day abordg,
Thank you for letting me know about the origin of that little song which says it so well about the contemporary (I hate the word modern) world.
Why don't you put the kids in a couple of ocean kayaks (it's cool) or river ones if that's relevant. It just seems such a waste hooning around in vehicles powered by infernal combustion motors-but then I am not a dad of teenage sons (good luck) but I have seen the damage done by propeller strikes to turtles and yes, dugongs and it's pretty sad.
Yes, and I am not a complete purist by a long shot and sailing in a Careel 18 is certainly better than standing on the shore dreaming about it. Nice to hear from someone on the other side of the pond.
Cheers
Mark
PS I saw Pete Seeger recently on TV -he was trying to pull the plug (actually he was after an axe) on another great folksinger/humdinger-Bob Dylan, at the concert when Dylan went electric.

Boatmik

14th August 2007, 08:32 PM

about the contemporary (I hate the word modern) world.

My favourite Japanese writer refers to the same thing in Japan when looking at how a fishing village, portside precinct and beach he knew from his youth has been concreted over to make way for a freeway and a Love Hotel.

His line... "as you would expect of an 'advanced capitalist economy' ".

I'm not meaning to be overtly political here - more talking about endpoints of economic development. I guess younger people today will lament the way that things from their youth disappear too.

Or Kurt Vonnegut, "so it goes"

This sounds a bit maudlin - think of all that water and a breeze to go with the Martha Jane or the GIS or even a Careel 18. Sure, some are more ticky tacky than others but the wind makes them all come alive.

MIK

thirsty

23rd August 2007, 09:26 AM

Hello everyone,

I turn my back for a week or two and everyone gets philosophical with kids poetry on me :D . Sorry I havent been around but I caught the dreaded influenza A virus and have been laying low - what a nasty little fella it is too!

Anyway, I have to confess that I have seriously considered a s/h boat and the careel was on the list. Not sure what other designs are worthy of being on a short list? Maybe I am a sucker for punishment - I dont know, but I keep coming back to building my own - the one that I want.

That and my best mate built his 16' runabout in 10 months with his old man. (Hey Mik, it was on display beside your PDR's at the Brisbane Working with Wood show. It is a Glen-L Malahini.) Nothing like that to get you fired up!

I have a couple of options I am considering but I know that if I buy s/h I will only get distracted from building one for even longer. And to experience the pride of building your own is a great reward having witnessed it first hand.

Cheers...