Need sharpening help - Southern Brisbane

[jisk]

Today I tried to sharpen one of my mujingfang plane blades for the second time. I wasn't very successful. Both times I've tried I haven't been able to even get near to "cut my arm hairs" sharpness. I spent around half an hour sharpening the same blade today, and I got it sharper than when I started, but it still wasn't even as sharp as when I pulled the plane out of the box. Don't even ask what the piece of pine I'm using to test it out on looks like.

I must be doing something wrong.

The stone I'm using to sharpen is something called "Worksmith 2 piece Diamond Honing Set" that I picked up at bunnings. It has a coarse side and fine side, but I have no idea of the grit of either side.

Is there anybody around my way that could show me how to sharpen properly? I'm in Greenbank on Brisbane's south side.

A dozen of your choice or a couple of bottles from my wine collection is up for grabs... (the wine isn't fancy stuff but it's tasty :D)

[rsser]

Wish I lived closer jisk ;-}

Can you post a pic of the honing set and the result of your efforts? Both sides?

If you trawl through the Hand Tools and Machinery sub-forum you'll find plenty of advice on fettling plane irons.

Cheapest is W&D pieces on plate glass, working up through the grits.

[Dean]

Hi mate,

If you want to come over I might be able to help :)

[thumbsucker]

The stone I'm using to sharpen is something called "Worksmith 2 piece Diamond Honing Set" that I picked up at bunnings. It has a coarse side and fine side, but I have no idea of the grit of either side.

OK - I had the exact same problem as you up until last night - I had been using water stones up to 6000 grit, however like you I had not been able to shave my arm hair or cut pine end grain.

Firstly you are trying to hone some hard HSS steel so it will be a little more work to get a razor edge.

Secondly I think you probably do not have the finest grit diamonds stones in town and you need to find a finer honing medium.

To make it truly sharp get a honing guide - the Veritas ones are great but anything that keeps the angle uniform will do. Then get some green Veritas honing compound which is about 8000 - 10 000 grit or 0.5 micron, see Carbatec. Rub it unto a board of MDF and polish the back of your blade, it needs to be flat, and without pits, see the excellent posts by Derek, I add a little veg oil into the compound to make it easier to work (I am not sure if other do this). Then use the honing compound to hone the cutting edge. It may take a few minutes however feel for the burr at the back with your finger nail then make sure to polish the back again to remove the burr.

Remember the back of your blade should always be honed only with the finest grit you have.

I then used some jewelers honing compound (0.1 micron grit) that is even finer then the Veritas stuff and I can actually use chisels to pair the likes of Cooktown Ironwood and even pine. It will be a revelation ones you get it.

Sharpening is a real gateway skill - however without the right tools it is near impossible.

[jisk]

Hi mate,

If you want to come over I might be able to help :)

Dean, that would be fantastic! Are you free today?

And name your flavour - red, white, one of each, or a brand of brew?

[jisk]

Wish I lived closer jisk ;-}

Can you post a pic of the honing set and the result of your efforts? Both sides?

If you trawl through the Hand Tools and Machinery sub-forum you'll find plenty of advice on fettling plane irons.

Cheapest is W&D pieces on plate glass, working up through the grits.

I'll get some pics online shortly.

Plate glass and W&D - that's called Scary Sharp, right? If it works that well, I'll have to see about getting a sheet of glass and try it out. At the mo I don't know whether it's my technique or tools.

[jisk]

OK - I had the exact same problem as you up until last night - I had been using water stones up to 6000 grit, however like you I had not been able to shave my arm hair or cut pine end grain.

Firstly you are trying to hone some hard HSS steel so it will be a little more work to get a razor edge.

Secondly I think you probably do not have the finest grit diamonds stones in town and you need to find a finer honing medium.

To make it truly sharp get a honing guide - the Veritas ones are great but anything that keeps the angle uniform will do. Then get some green Veritas honing compound which is about 8000 - 10 000 grit or 0.5 micron, see Carbatec. Rub it unto a board of MDF and polish the back of your blade, it needs to be flat, and without pits, see the excellent posts by Derek, I add a little veg oil into the compound to make it easier to work (I am not sure if other do this). Then use the honing compound to hone the cutting edge. It may take a few minutes however feel for the burr at the back with your finger nail then make sure to polish the back again to remove the burr.

Remember the back of your blade should always be honed only with the finest grit you have.

I then used some jewelers honing compound (0.1 micron grit) that is even finer then the Veritas stuff and I can actually use chisels to pair the likes of Cooktown Ironwood and even pine. It will be a revelation ones you get it.

Sharpening is a real gateway skill - however without the right tools it is near impossible.

TS, I couldn't even get a smooth curling of pine, let alone end grain! End grain would be a dream come true at this point.

Thanks for the tips - I may end up getting a jig and new honing equipment if that is what it takes. I was sharpening the same blade for over half an hour yesterday afternoon - does it usually take that long to get an edge on HSS with the right equipment and technique?

[thumbsucker]

was sharpening the same blade for over half an hour yesterday afternoon - does it usually take that long to get an edge on HSS
with the right equipment and technique?


It takes a long time to grind a new angle - however if you are just honing with the right stuff it is not to bad, however you have to sharpen less often so it pays back.

[rsser]

I'll get some pics online shortly.

Plate glass and W&D - that's called Scary Sharp, right? If it works that well, I'll have to see about getting a sheet of glass and try it out. At the mo I don't know whether it's my technique or tools.

Yep.

You first need to flatten the back of the blade. With some of mine that's meant starting at 120 grit W&D on glass or even lower. No edge is going to be good without this flattening. And you can easily wear out the W&D in 10 mins of solid work so make sure you change your sheets. (I like water or oil on mine; some just go dry).

To get a good polished flat go up through the grits as per the SS system. Be prepared to spend a lot more time than half an hour.

Diamond stones as I understand it are simply not fine enough to get a good polish on the back and on the bevel as already pointed out. I've tried them for this kind of lapping work and tried other kinds of stone - too slow.

It's a PITA but you only have to do the back once ... that's my experience as a GIT :roll:

[rsser]

... wonder if this would do backs:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=48435&cat=1,43072

Prob not but one can but dream.

I did try a belt sander in a cradle. Didn't get Burnsy's smoke neither did it do a brilliant job. On a 3/4" mortice chisel. Not flat enough.

[jisk]

I've attached some pics of the blade and sharpening stone. My camera isn't the best, so I hope they show you enough detail.


Yep.

You first need to flatten the back of the blade. With some of mine that's meant starting at 120 grit W&D on glass or even lower. No edge is going to be good without this flattening. And you can easily wear out the W&D in 10 mins of solid work so make sure you change your sheets. (I like water or oil on mine; some just go dry).

To get a good polished flat go up through the grits as per the SS system. Be prepared to spend a lot more time than half an hour.

Diamond stones as I understand it are simply not fine enough to get a good polish on the back and on the bevel as already pointed out. I've tried them for this kind of lapping work and tried other kinds of stone - too slow.

It's a PITA but you only have to do the back once ... that's my experience as a GIT :roll:

Okay, so you only flatten the back once, the first time you sharpen a blade - is this true for planes and chisels?

[rsser]

Yep, true for plane irons and chisels.

You want a flattened and polished back before dealing with the bevel.

I've got a dual diamond stone like yours ... coarse is too fine and fine is too coarse, if that ain't too Irish a logic for you.

Others on the forum are more experienced than me and can prob. advise better ... but with those results I'd be heading SS. 10mm float glass (or even 8) mounted on thick MDF. I recall the guru Derek uses three layers of thick MDF. I settle for one layer; think it's 19mm.

I prefer fabric backed paper but it's sometiimes hard with coarse grits to get it to stick flat .. and if the ends curl up you won't get a flat back. So go for quality W&D or spray the adhesive on both the glass and the underside of any grit of quality fabric backed under 180.

Hope this helps. It's tedious but the result is worth it.

[rsser]

PS, you only need to flatten and polish the last 1-2 cm of the underside of the iron.

[thumbsucker]

Okay, so you only flatten the back once, the first time you sharpen a blade - is this true for planes and chisels?

Generally this is true.

Generally you only need to polish the leading 1/3 of a plane blade, however a chisel should be generally polished along its whole back.

Blades should always be either flat or concave in the middle (see Japanese Chisels), However it should never be convex on the back as the blade will not sit flat.

The photos you have taken of the back of the blade are veeeeeeeerrry far from polished - it should be a mirror - if you can see yourself 100% clear in the back then you have a polished back.

[jisk]

Thanks guys.

I'm still keen for someone to show me hands-on how to do it properly... Dean? Mate, check the forums!

[jisk]

I had a read of the carbatec catalogue while eating breaskfast this morning and noticed that the decent dual sided diamond stones are upwards of $199. I paid $35 for mine. Something tells me that the quality won't be up to scratch :wink:.

rsser - any idea whether the Veritas Mk II Honing Guide (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1) works with scary sharp? Would sharpening forward and back tear the sandpaper?

[mic-d]

G'day Jisk, If you want to drive over Kenmore way I would be happy to give you some sharpening tips.

Cheers
Michael

[rsser]

Jisk, others know more about this game than me ... AFAIK a diamond stone is wasted if the main task is to flatten the back. SS is the way to go, and yes you can use the Veritas Mk II jig with it ... just take it easy on the forward stroke.

If you do want to go the diamond stone route for routine bevel work, check out ebay international. A guy in the US sells the DMT 10" dual grit for less than a locally bought 8" (though it doesn't include a holder).

[jisk]

Jisk, others know more about this game than me ... AFAIK a diamond stone is wasted if the main task is to flatten the back.

I wasn't looking at the DMT stones in the carbatec catalogue to buy them - more out of interest, and noticed the huge price difference with mine.

[Studley 2436]

I have a real rough silicone carbide stone that is good for getting the bevel back round abouts. Leaves a nasty burr on and so on but it means you are set to start on the water stones.

Then I work through waterstones. King 800, 1200 and 4000 (they sell this one as 6000 but it is really 4000). I do have a King 8000 as well but only use that for Japanese blades it doesn't seem to make any real difference to high speed steel.

The plate glass and wet and dry is important to have though so that you can keep your stones flat. Very important. The other thing is to just muck around and muck around with it, experience will teach you and you will amaze yourself how much there is to know about this.

Studley

[jisk]

G'day Jisk, If you want to drive over Kenmore way I would be happy to give you some sharpening tips.

Cheers
Michael

Cheers Michael. Kenmore is a bit of a drive from where I am (Greenbank) and Dean has sent me a PM - he's a bit closer.

Thanks anyway!

[jisk]

The other thing is to just muck around and muck around with it, experience will teach you and you will amaze yourself how much there is to know about this.


I am quickly learning how true this is. When I ordered my planes and bought my chisels, I didn't even consider that I had to sharpen them. Naive, I know.

Based on what everyone has said, my current plan is to go and see Dean to get a demo on how to sharpen, then get some plate glass and W&D to have a go myself with equipment that I know is good. Buying stones from the start is going to end up being a big outlay before I can get a decent edge, I think. If I'm still frustrated and want to get that perfect edge I'll go ahead and get a honing jig and some waterstones, or stick with the W&D if that's going to work and not cost too much.

Sound like a plan?

[jisk]

Is 600mm x 200mm glass, approx 60mm thick overkill or not enough?

How big is your plate glass rsser?

[rsser]

Sounds like a plan jisk.

Re the size of the float glass I went for 10 cm x 80 cm x 1 cm thick. Not cheap. If doing it again I'd go for a metre long and 11 cm wide .... helpful if you ever get hooked on flattening the soles of planes (now there's some hard and tedious work!). Some folk use the cast iron tables of their table jaw or jointer. I'm not keen on getting grit or water near mine.

Happy stroking ;-}

[jisk]

Oops, something went wrong with my calculations to say 60mm thick! I lost a decimal point somewhere from inches to cm to mm... I'll go with 10mm thick :wink: and similar dimensions to yours.

Time to call some glass suppliers.

Thanks heaps.

James.

[rsser]

Pleasure.

My glazier said 6mm thick mounted on something solid wouldn't flex but I've gone for the extra thickness. Reason is that it's very easy without a true surface just to take a bit more off the corners (and this also happens easily if the paper is not stuck down all over). This is exactly what you don't want when flattening the back and is a b*gger to remedy. On the bevel side of a jack plane iron it can of course be helpful to avoid leaving marks on wide boards.

[jisk]

I picked up a sheet of glass from the local glazier during the week, some silicon carbide sandpaper (in 80, 120, 360, 600 and 1200 grit), and had a crack at flattening the back, although got called in for dinner by SWMBO before finishing. Food cannot wait :D:D:D.

When flattening the back, should I stay on one grit until the back of the blade shows scratches that are completely uniform, with no high or low spots, before moving on to the next grit? So theoretically I will be spending more time on the lower grits, right?

BTW - I haven't even had a go at the bevel yet and already the blade is sharper than I was getting with that crappy stone. Excellent!

[thumbsucker]

So theoretically I will be spending more time on the lower grits, right?

right

Generally time spent is 80% on your lower grit 20% on all other grits.

[derekcohen]

When flattening the back, should I stay on one grit until the back of the blade shows scratches that are completely uniform, with no high or low spots, before moving on to the next grit? So theoretically I will be spending more time on the lower grits, right?


Have a read here:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/lappingBlade/lappBlade1.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jisk]

Thanks guys.

Derek, great article. It cleared up a lot, especially with the photos. A couple of questions:

- Why emery paper when shavings.net and the taunton article have silicon carbide? Is there a difference?
- Does using the veritas rouge make a tangible difference to the sharpness and effectiveness of the blade?

James

[Studley 2436]

I'm pretty sure you are on the right track James and it will come as you do it.

The best tip I got was not to glue the paper to the glass but just to wet it down and it holds on that way.

Studley

[derekcohen]

Why emery paper when shavings.net and the taunton article have silicon carbide? Is there a difference?

James, I am sure that someone will correct me, but I have thought that emery and W&D are one and the same thing. If not, I meant to say W&D.



The best tip I got was not to glue the paper to the glass but just to wet it down and it holds on that way.

Studley, yes you can hone this way, but for serious lapping of backs of blades I would advise that you glue down the sheets to avoid any dubbing as the paper curls and moves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jisk]

James, I am sure that someone will correct me, but I have thought that emery and W&D are one and the same thing. If not, I meant to say W&D.


I'm a newbie, I just go by what I read - if you thought they are the same, they probably are :wink:.

[BAZMick]

I am sure that someone will correct me, but I have thought that emery and W&D are one and the same thing. If not, I meant to say W&D. Quoted from DerekCohen

I am not sure either but I thought emery was in tape form with a cloth back and W&D was a sheet and paper back, either way the grit is the same.

Jisk did you get to spend an arvo with Dean or Michael? If not I'm on the southside of Brissy, give me a PM. Bear in mind I'm no expert but I can start you off with my amateuristic ways. I just bought my first waterstone (from rssr as MOF) and "hooowee" I'm lookin forward to cuttin somethin with me "ol faithful scapels. Think I'll try splitting hairs first!!! Has anybody else thought of doin somethin pottery after sharpening with there waterstones??

[jisk]

Bazmick,

I didn't get to catch up with Dean - he got sick late last week.

I'm making (somewhat slow) progress with the sharpening, but it is progress. If you're keen to show me a thing or two, I'm keen to watch.

PM is on its way...

[jisk]

I made MAJOR progress today with sharpening. I picked up the Veritas Mk 2 Honing Jig from Carbatec based on an old thread of Derek's I found on here.

Wow, what a difference it made. Within ten minutes of reading the manual I had a sharp edge that I could cut my arm hairs with!

Photo attached ;)

In my adventures with sharpening, I noticed that the original plane blade I had been sharpening has been somewhat trashed by the ?????? stone I started with. The stone must have a slight raise in the middle as it's made the edge of the blade slightly concave. It's going to take quite a bit of "grinding" with sandpaper to flatten it out.

[rsser]

Good work Jisk.

FWIW I'm giving up fabric-backed paper on glass. Coming to the conclusion that it flexes and takes too much off the blade corners. Back to W&D.

I got several grades of 3M micro-abrasive from the States and gave them a workout today. Yep, a polish good enough to count your nose hairs in :U

[newbie-doug]

hi guys,
i may be wrong, i use the plate glass and w.d.. works great:2tsup:, razor sharp edges every time. but i never use oil as a lube, you don't get a polished edge, the oil dulls it or stains it. i all ways use water, i get a polished edge that way..i may be wrong but..im only 17 guys. go easy on me :B

thanks

[Studley 2436]

Nothing to be nervous about Doug. You have found a way that works for you and no one will argue that. I think most people use water as a lubricant/flushing agent anyway.

Myself I prefer to use stones to wet and dry but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Studley

[Christopha]

Only 17??? RIPPER!! Another lamb to the slaughter!

Newbie Dug, maaaate, I use cheap CRC/ DWF type stuff on my diamond plate, my oilstones and when using wet and dry paper as it seems to be about as as thin as water, floats away the particles of metal just as well and I prefer to keep water away from my expensive steel tools.

[John Saxton]

Sounds like a plan jisk.

Re the size of the float glass I went for 10 cm x 80 cm x 1 cm thick. Not cheap. If doing it again I'd go for a metre long and 11 cm wide .... helpful if you ever get hooked on flattening the soles of planes (now there's some hard and tedious work!). Some folk use the cast iron tables of their table jaw or jointer. I'm not keen on getting grit or water near mine.

Happy stroking ;-}

I use a metre long by 600mm by 19mm sheet of plate glass that did cost a few $$$ but I reckon on having the means to flatten my plane soles/sides and not the cast iron tables as RSSER has mentioned that some folk use.

It's as heavy and does not move around and it has proved it's worth over time with WD an varying grades across the face and allows for complete control with reasonably long strokes along the WD.

Have been using it for a number of years now with satisfying results.

Cheers:)

[John Saxton]

[QUOTE=derekcohen,
Studley, yes you can hone this way, but for serious lapping of backs of blades I would advise that you glue down the sheets to avoid any dubbing as the paper curls and moves.

Regards from Perth

Derek[/QUOTE]

Spray on glue from the craft supply shops helps and holds down well!

Cheers:)

[newbie-doug]

haha yes christopha im 17.. its odd how i have this love for wood considering i have no influences around to show me what to do..im self tort, im mainly interested in hand tool restoration, lol just thought u might want to know, anyway one question, will does oil stain the steel? every time i use oil as a lube it give a dull finish , is this just my eyes?

thanks.