Goat Island Skiff vs Green Island 15

[ausie]

Would any knowledgeable members be able to compare these two designs,and any other similar sharpies for that matter,and comment on how they would perform, head to head?

Thank you.Al.

[bitingmidge]

this could get ugly!! :oo:

Perform??

Well that depends on what you mean by perform.

If you mean "sail well and in a spirited manner", I'd back my GIS anyday.

If you mean ease of rigging, launching and retrieving. Well I think I could have the GIS rigged, launched, sail a 100 metre triangle, derigged and back on the trailer, before the Green Is was back to shore. This is a function of having a boat light enough for two people to carry at a pinch, and a free standing rig - I'm not bagging the GI15, just explaining things I like about the GIS!

The Green Is is a heavier boat and many of it's design details appear compromised towards pure cruising, (kick up foils for instance) so one would have to expect that it won't "perform" (in a sailing sense) as well, this is not to say it doesn't sail capably, it does.

The GIS is more of a sailing boat first.

The Green Island arrived on the scene a year or two after I completed my boat, and I've watched a few out of the corner of my eye, but I've never considered trading.

It would be interesting to get a couple side by side and do a really objective comparison, so if you've got a GI15 and want to go for a sail one day, with cameras and note paper at the ready, give me a hoy!

This was a somewhat biased report you understand! :D
Cheers,

P
:D

[journeyman Mick]

.............It would be interesting to get a couple side by side and do a really objective comparison, so if you've got a GI15 and want to go for a sail one day, with cameras and note paper at the ready, give me a hoy!..........


I'll take you up on that one day, when I get mine built.:rolleyes:

Mick

[Rick_Tatum]

GIS hands down...


...errrr...not that I have actually seen either boat live and in the round :-, but I did purchase plans for the GIS. Certainly I would have made the superior choice, right?

When you get your Green River built, and I my GIS, maybe we could have a trans-hemisphere cyber sailoff! :D. I look forward to seeing the results of your work.

[bitingmidge]

I'll take you up on that one day, when I get mine built.:rolleyes:

I really look forward to that Mick, your place or mine?

:D :D

P

[journeyman Mick]

I really look forward to that Mick, your place or mine?

:D :D

P

Might have to be mine, based on current projects progress, I don't know if the nursing home you'll probably be in by the time I get it built will allow boat testing/racing.:rolleyes:

Mick

[bitingmidge]

After Goolwa this year, the drive will seem ..... about the same distance!

At least without crossing any state borders, I won't have to bring my passport, (or throw out perfectly good fruit!)


:D :D
P

[Boatmik]

The main thing with the GIS was to strive for the maximum amount of simplicity to keep down the cost by keeping down the amount of materials and complication.

The cheapest rig will just about always be a free standing rig with a single sail and no headsails. That is through most sizes of boats - that's from doing fitting package and sail quotes for a whole range of boats. The effect is obvious and striking once you do even a few quotes.

Also when building of wood, the more weight you can pull out of the boat the less the structure will cost - assuming you optimise the size of everything to fit reasonably efficiently on the ply sheets. Also it reduces labour.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1100/875545453_cb1a2d913d.jpg

The more weight you can pull out - the better the performance too.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/379074736_8cfe85a545.jpg

[ausie]

Sorry about the delay in replying but I had to attend to some non-boating matters.

Whoa Pete!...seems I threw an onion in on a spear,if you get my drift! ....came out swingin' eh!....sounds like a bloke not to be messed with!....or one who loves his GIS?

My intent was to hear how owners of these designs are enjoying the different sailing experience that two slightly different versions of sharpies offer.

I have followed with interest the development of both for some time and admire them both for their relative ease of construction, & I certainly concur with Michael & the rest of you that simplicity of hull & rig in a fun boat is highly desirable....& weight is a big factor in outright performance as well as ease of launching & rigging.

However,most of my sailing has been on keelboats having owned yachts for many years & I am passionate about solo sailing.My small boat sailing experienced is limited to having learnt the basics on my very beat-up old Moth MK2 as a kid & racing an 18' Stingray catamaran for a few years 20 odd years ago( I was only about 40 y/o then & very fit).I'm a little older now & while still pretty fit obviously not as agile as back then.

Therefore I would look at self-righting as a desirable feature & the GI15 seems to fulfill this with water & solid ballast,which would also allow me to stay seated on a side seat instead of hiking out on the rail when the wind got up.....all with sail suitably reefed of course.Here on Newcastlle's Lake Macquarie we enjoy the afternoon summer sea breaze that pumps in early afternoon & often gets up to 20-30kts which would have a competant crew in a GIS absolutely flying, but solo might be a handfull.The Stingray was insanely fast with two of us on trapeze & at times almost totally out of control...which we never admitted of course.

This is where I feel the GI15 would stand out in the heavier weather which would negate the weight difference to some extent & still produce some fast sailng with less effort on crew....especially if it was rigged with a balanced lug instead of a stayed rig.

See where I'm coming from?....sort of horses for courses.If I were greedy,I'd have both a GIS & a GI15 in my stable, but SHE would not see the sense in that! Mind you,SHE was the best crew on our yachts, which we often sailed together short-handed in non-spinnaker races , as well as extensive cruising,so I'd better watch what I say about her here!

I have no experience with a balanced lug rig & am just about finished converting my Ross Lillistone "Alby" 8' dinghy/tender ( see Launchings in current AABB) to sailing configuration,so I'll soon know how this pretty little sail shape works (all 41 sq ft of it).Thanks to Michael for his excellent rigging tips on lug sails....it has added much to my research .

Also Mike, I will get around to making a PD racer( thanks for the plans) when I get some other boats out of my hair....I want to involve the parents & kids of a couple of needy famillies I know & get them involved.When finished,the boat will be theirs,but I have to work it so they are not embarassed by my funding the project as they certainly couldn't....that's where their labour input is a must.

Any more sharpie sailors out there?....love to here your stories.

Al Burke.

Too many boats to build....too little time.

[bitingmidge]

Also Mike, I will get around to making a PD racer( thanks for the plans) when I get some other boats out of my hair....I want to involve the parents & kids of a couple of needy famillies I know & get them involved.When finished,the boat will be theirs,but I have to work it so they are not embarassed by my funding the project as they certainly couldn't....that's where their labour input is a must.

Al, now THAT's a great project!! We'd love to see the pics and the story as you go!

On a more serious note, in 30 knots, any small boat will be a handfull. If that's truly your aim, then I'd suggest you sail your intended design in similar conditions before you build. Otherwise, you seem to have a handle on what you need!

cheers,

P
:D

[ausie]

Thanks Pete,

I do hope though that a GI15 or other sharpie owner as well as any other GIS owners have a tale to share with us.

My heart strings are also tugged by Ross Lillistone's Phoenix,but that's another story for another time.

As you can see, I'm a wooden boat tragic.

Al.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Al,

My lifestyle depends on "boat tragics" so you'll get no criticism from me!!!

BTW, I wouldn't call either boat a "sharpie" which is a very specific type. Generally sharpies are much longer (and not too much wider) and rely on ballast or the weight of a thick bottom to keep them upright.

These two boats under discussion are flat bottomed dinghies (or flat bottomed skiffs) and rely at least partly on crew weight to hold them up and for good performance.

Best wishes
Michael

[Mike Roberts]

Hi, I think Michael Storer's Goat Island Skiff is a very fine vessel. I love the way he took the standard dory skiff and gave it a more modern shape to make it go faster! I know that patch of water very well round Goat Island as I lived at Long Nose Point for about seven years and have sailed and rowed those waters many times.

The Green Island 15 was designed for the Morton Bay area where things are a little different. Morton Bay is much bigger and much shallower and there are a lot more sharks!

GIS is a skiff by definition which means light weight and no decks. GI-15 has a fore deck, side decks and forward coaming. It caries ballast, in the form of water and sand, has greater beam and fold up foils. The more complicated rig of the GI-15 offers many options to it's skipper, all of which I won't go into right now re space.

Hull Shape. I think it is a great tribute to the Dory Skiff hull form that two such different vessels could be designed with seemingly similar parameters.

I will let others comment on the details of GIS but I can offer some insights to the shape of the Green Island 15.

First of all I wanted to maximize the internal volume of the hull without impacting too badly on drag. Next I was aware that a long trip back home with a 25 knot southerly would mean a lot of time spent driving into the back of a steep wave and that if the boat got twitchy in that situation it could be quite tiring. While keeping the chines narrow I pushed as much reserve buoyancy into the bow as I could. This keeps the bow up when driving into the back of a wave. (In twelve and half thousand nautical miles of sailing I have never taken green water over the foredeck!)

An other factor here is the Green Island 15's large rudder, (nearly as big as the centre board.) Wave and wind may conspire to broach the boat but that powerful rudder will always get you out of trouble when the tiller is yanked (even if the blade is up!).

For me the best is in 15 to 20 knots, sailing to windward with a crew of two, sitting on the side deck, toes tucked into the hiking straps, leaping over meter high waves, collecting a little spray and watching the hull slice through the waves !!! oh yes ! What my kids like is simply using the Green Island 15 as an out board motor boat puttering around with the 4 hp 4 stroke on the back.

We are all just so lucky to have so many choices !!!

Mike Roberts (designer of Green Island 15)

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Mike Roberts !
Delighted to see another respected designer in the forum to keep us tinkerers & builders on the straight & narrow. :U
cheers
AJ

[ausie]

Mike,

Wow!....thought you'd fallen off the edge of the earth!Great to hear from you.:o

I tried to see you at the Sydney Wooden Boat Festival last year? but our paths did not cross.

Ross Lillistone told me you were off stirring up a storm singing blues or some such & I thought we'd lost you to boating.

I haven't looked at this forum since you disappeared so am pleasantly surprised to find your reply here today.

Let me say there are a number of "real" wooden boat people I know who have expressed dismay & sadness that you may have walked away from designing. Let's hope you're back to stay.

Your comments very neatly describe what I was wanting to confirm from my own observations.

I originally asked also if a balanced lug rig was available,as I need to get under a car bridge to get to Newcstle harbour from the boat ramp,& be able to rig/de-rig on the water easily,necessitating a free-standing unstayed rig.At the time you said you had not designed that option yet & so I moved on.

But your reply is still welcome surprise for which I thank you.:2tsup:

Al Burke

[Mike Roberts]

To :- Al Burke. From :- Mike Roberts (Headland Boats) Hi Al, No .... ! I have not disappeared. I still work out of the same Bayside office that I have worked out of for the past ten years ! I still have the same website :- The same phone numbers (+617 3893 0676) and Mobile (0407553794) The same email address :- .. etc Yes ...... I still sail my Green Island 15 out on Morton Bay. These days I regularly post out plans globally, including UK, NZ, USA, Poland, Italy, Greek Islands, etc. ( I quote from my latest US customer - “The Green Island 18 plans are more than I ever expected. The clarity and level of detail is immense. I have bought and inspected many plans from many N.A.`s and designers and can say that your plans are at the top of the best. They are well worth the money paid. Sincerely, R. L. ) Recent projects in the custom design dept have included a 23 ft strip plank trailerable yacht; an 18 ft balsa core power cat; a 15 ft clinker rowing dory and renovations to a 30 square meter racing yacht etc. Over seas trips have included sailing Falmouth, Cornwall, the Solent for Cowes Week and San Diego to sail aboard the classic thirty square meter racing yacht “Benchmark”. While in the US, I did have the honour of recording with some “Top” jazz musicians but I am not about to give up my day job! Now to the business of answering woodworking questions. SAILING UNDER LOW BRIDGES ... Most well designed boats will have the rig and hull specifically designed to compliment each other. I have had a number of requests to to place other rigs on the Green Island 15 but have never felt that any of the alternatives offered would work as well as the rig drawn in the plans. I have sailed my GI-15 under the low bridge at Breakfast Creek in Brisbane at various states of tide. At low tide it was enough to drop the main sail into it’s “Lazy Jacks” and “Heel” the boat a little to lower the mast. At high tides I have been forced to rig and de-rig the boat at anchor in the middle of the river. Not too much trouble if you prepare correctly. With a small modification the whole rig, including mast and sails can be dropped into the boat then re raised ready to sail. 1. The fwd thwart needs to have a removable “Gate” where the mast passes through, so that the mast can be lowered without disconnecting the shrouds at the chainplates. Any boom vang must also be removable. 2. Rather than simply lashing the forestay to the eye bolt on the fore deck, a double mini block on the eyebolt is paired with a mini block and becket affixed to the end of the forestay. 4 mm spectra ties to the becket, around sheive 1 on the eyebolt, back the the sheive of the block and becket, through sheive 2 on the double block the back to the cockpit via a small hole in the front of the coaming. This is then secured on a cleat attached on the forward bulk head. When “Shooting” a low bridge, the procedure is the following :- 1. Loose sheets and disconnect vang from boom. 2. Remove mast “Gate”. 3. Untie forestay tensioner from cleat and use to lower whole rig into the boat. 4. Haul the whole rig back up using three part forestay tensioner. 5. Re-cleat forestay tensioner and sail away ! A little organisation and practice will be required but a very efficient and seaman like manoeuvre can be the result. All the best Mike Roberts (designer)

[ausie]

Mike,

Thank you for the very detailed reply,it makes good reading & re-inforces what I like about your GI15.

I have seen similar rigging on trailer sailers that work well for raising & lowering the mast & agree it is a simple & workable solution to the car bridge problem.

Sadly I have moved on & started building Jim Mikalak's Ladybug.I say sadly as I would have preferred a GI15,but I allowed?? my good wife,who is good crew & an accomplished sailor,into the selection process.

With so many great designs to consider,we narrowed it down to a few with Ladybug in the mix,mainly because of the large,uncluttered cockpit,low Cof E free-standing rig & it fitted on an existing trailer.High performance was definitely not one of the criteria,nor classic good looks,although I like Ladybug in a practical sort of way.

Ross Lillistone's First Mate & GI15 sort of tied for looks & good all-round performance & one or two others were not far away,but "SHE" plonked for Ladybug.

She was also a but severe on GIS after I sat her down & looked at the two videos on Michael Storer's site,where she played them several times & remarked that even 3-up it seemed very tender in gusts.Having crewed with me on VJs when we were fairly young & having sailed thousands of ocean miles together,I don't argue.Although she conceded that GIS,being a performance boat, would need a much firmer hand on the tiller.

AND,while very fit & agile,we are both in our 60s & should slow down a bit for a change!

So for now,Ladybug it is, but being addicted to wooden boat building,I might well have a relapse down the track.

Thanks again Mike & I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.

Al.:2tsup:

[b.o.a.t.]

Finally found your web-site Mike - Headland Boats.
Duly book-marked.
cheers
AJ

[Bruce Sibthorpe]

Mike is definitely alive and helping me with construction questions. My GI15 is nearing completion and I hope to find other GI15's on Lake Macquarie. You must see one of these boats before you build something else.

Any other GI15's ?
Bruce.

[Daddles]

You must see one of these boats before you build something else.

There's one of these up at Duck Flats at the moment.

Richard

[Boatmik]

Are you sure Richard?

MIK

[Daddles]

Are you sure Richard?

MIK

Big brown thing in the front yard. It's listed on the Duck's for sale page ... or am I looking at something completely different and confusing it with the Green Island :-

Richard

[Boatmik]

If you mean the varnished boat near the skip it is a Murray Isles Swallowdale.

In a way the Swallowdale was one of the inputs into the GIS. I sailed one with a friend and a couple of kids a few times and they are a nice little boat if you put a boom on the standing lug! Makes sailing much simpler and gives a lot more performance.

It is a nice little boat. Not the performance of the Goat though it can be cartopped and would probably row a lot better than the Goat when the wind gets up.

It is really a dory with a wider stern.

MIK

[Daddles]

If you mean the varnished boat near the skip it is a Murray Isles Swallowdale.

Hmm, readers of this thread should go back to ignoring my posts :-
Rats, the Swallowdale isn't on the Duck Flats website.

Richard

[m2c1Iw]

Hmm, readers of this thread should go back to ignoring my posts :-
Rats, the Swallowdale isn't on the Duck Flats website.

Richard

I have never ignored your posts Daddles, had to reread them a few times maybe but never ignore.:D

I believe you are correct about a Green Island for sale at DF, well according to the for sale section (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php?PHPSESSID=1398ce3494b2b105e0a6adb1a117d985) that is, mind you it's a fair drive to pick it up.

Mike

[Bruce Sibthorpe]

It is a GI15. I can see the frames and am certain that it's a GI15. I know every angle on that design. It's a very cheap boat, well worth the drive I would say.

About twelve months ago I would have snapped it up. To give you an idea, the trailer alone has cost me $800.00 Second hand, the main will cost about $900 and the head sail about $450. Paint $500.00, add to that the ply, timber, epoxy and fittings. If it's a reasonable build quality it's a steal.

Bruce.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Al & Bruce, are you still sailing on Lake Macquarie in a GI15?