Fortifying or Stabilizing of Timber

[Manuka Jock]

Gidday folks ,
I'm after information about stabilisation products for timber .
A mate of mine , Riki , is a carver , and he is carving a Marae . Some of the Totara timber slabs that have been milled and supplied have areas of punky wood along the pith , and there are pockets of spalted/ rotted wood too.
To get maximum use out of these , and because the longest carvings are going floor to vaulted ceiling , the soft bits are unavoidable.
They may, by default , add to the look of the works also.

So , we are endeavoring to source a product that will fortify these pieces.
Actually I could do with some myself for turning some heavily spalted Rimu , that he , Riki , has given me .
When I have inquired around for such stabilizing products here , the answer that I tend to get relates to wood preservative treatments.
Solidifying rotted wood seems to be beyond the ken of most trade suppliers hereabouts

Due to the size of these timbers , vacuum containers , baths , tanks etc , are out of the question .
Ponding on the slab surface may be the only option .

Any ideas team ?
thanks ,
Jock

[Kea5]

G'day Jock,

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, and I haven't tried this particular product myself, but I thought I'd point it out to you anyway.

http://www.natural-oils.co.nz/catalogue/product.php?id=Timbermate%20Woodfiller

I bought some Tung Oil from them the other day via the internet and it arrived the next day so I have a good impression of them.

Might be worth E-mailing them and seeing what they suggest.

Hope this helps.

[rsser]

Punky spots in turning timber can be strengthened just with white shellac or nitrocellulose sanding sealer. Small spots with CA.

If areas are flaking out then use a line of cheap CA then spin and sand with 120 grit ... and stand aside while doing it as well as cover your lathe bed :oo:

[hughie]

As Ern says CA or super glue it will soak right in and bind all the soft fibres together

[Manuka Jock]

Thanks for the replies guys .

Kea ,
I will email them , and look into the info you have given .

Rsser , Hughie ,
the nitrocellulose sanding sealer I will check out .

I had an thought that there was a resin type of thing available , but I may be confusing it with some other application .

cheers ,
Jock

[scooter]

I had an thought that there was a resin type of thing available , but I may be confusing it with some other application .

cheers ,
Jock


I think this can be done with some sort of polyester resin, but would alter how the piece was subsequently tooled, ie. a workpiece on the lathe would need to be worked by carefully scraping instead of using a cutting action.

Carving it would a bit of a challenge I'd reckon...

[ihog]

Here are a couple of web sites that may help.

http://www.woodrestoration.com/

http://www.conservepoxy.com/

[Manuka Jock]

Thanks gents ,
I will check out those two links and give them a good read tonight. .
Yep , its working the piece after firming it up that is the trick alright .
And with the carvings , 600m 800m wide and 3M long , thats a lot of timber movement .
And too much work done to toss it when the crap wood shows itself.

Kea ,
These folk , .natural-oils.co.nz (http://www.natural-oils.co.nz/catalogue/product.php?id=Timbermate%20Woodfiller) ,tell me that they get the 'TimberMate ', from Seearco Distributors Ltd , just up the road from me , so I can take a small sample into them , and maybe get them to come down to the carving gallery to look over the big slabs .

Cheers all .
Jock

[rsser]

In the days when a turned bowl could show no natural features like voids or cracks I used Timbermate as a filler before sanding.

None of it has dropped out or noticeably changed colour, and you can mix diff colours for a timber match.

I can't speak about how it would carve. If memory serves it sands OK and an oil-based finish could go over the top.

Cabot sells a similar product - prob. comes out of the same factory.

[ticklingmedusa]

<TABLE class=body><TBODY><TR><TD class=quicklinks><TABLE class=quicklinks><TBODY><TR><TD width=410>dont know if its available there...
tm



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[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

A bit late, but there are a couple of stabilising solutions available that work well but need extra equipment, primarily a vac-pump.

I know a lot of people use long-setting, thin epoxy resins, I do basically the same thing except using Tung Oil. IMHO it's a process best used on really punky woods, or timbers that are in such a bad state that they'd otherwise be considered firewood or garden mulch. You know, those pieces that have other turners standing around scratching their heads and muttering "I wouldn't have been silly enough to try mounting that..." :rolleyes:

Why only on "trash" pieces? Because at the beginning, there'll be a LOT of failures until you refine your methods and your equipment and, just as importantly, because it restricts the choice of finishes. There's no sense applying a penetrating finish to an epoxy saturated wood and some PolyU's I've tried "orange peel" when laid over epoxy... and my tung oil jobs are obviously restricted to a primarily Tung or Danish finish.

I've long wanted to try the Polycryl that Tickling mentions, but have never come across it when browsing in store and don't tend to think of it otherwise. :shrug: I've seen good mention of it in several archeological articles I've read, mainly of salvaged waterlogged timber artifacts (which it penetrates quickly and easily) but there's a subtle difference between stabilising a wood for posterity and stabilising a wood for future machining.

Of course, I would like the chance to examine any such differences in depth but not on my budget. :no: (Just thought I'd mention that just in case any Penta/Polycryl suppliers happen to be reading this and are looking for a PR opportunity... :innocent::U )

[ticklingmedusa]

I've long wanted to try the Polycryl that Tickling mentions, but have never come across it when browsing in store and don't tend to think of it otherwise. :shrug: I've seen good mention of it in several archeological articles I've read, mainly of salvaged waterlogged timber artifacts (which it penetrates quickly and easily) but there's a subtle difference between stabilising a wood for posterity and stabilising a wood for future machining.


I'm on my first bottle. The Sea Hibiscus absorbed a lot fast.
Its nontoxic and has an almost pleasant citruslike smell to it.
Its expensive here... at about $17 US a quart and with overseas shipping (if its possible) the cost would probably go through the shed roof.
Skew, I'm not a dealer but I can get it locally, contact me if you want some.
tm

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Its expensive here... at about 17 a quart and with overseas shipping (if its possible) the cost would probably go through the shed roof.
Skew, I'm not a dealer but you can contact me if you want some.

Yeah, it's ridiculously expensive over here. But I think the budget is safe; I won't take you up on your offer. If only so I don't become disgruntled with my current, cheaper methods. :wink:

[hughie]

Pentacryl,

Like wise I also tried to source it here but found it to be way over the top price wise.

Look at plexi glass and acetone, but our stuff here is acrylic and chemial that melts it is way too dangerous........sigh

[Manuka Jock]

Great response folks , thanks for the support .
The Polycryl looks to be the ticket , but , its' out of the question , due to the fact that we don't have it here , and the cost of getting hold of it .
I may try the tung oil method that Skew speaks of , immersing the piece , and soaking it awhile .
I may as well try it out on this over spalted platter ... if it works , I can wire the finished pieces together , and call it 'Earthquake' :U


Are all tung oils the same , or are some better that others ?

[OGYT]

Some of the folks on the other forums advocate using White Glue, mixed with equal amounts of water. Overnight soak. Dry. Turn. They say it works. I tried it on a piece of punky wood... but I didn't soak it, I just brushed it on the punky spot, (if I remember right)... I don't think I used enough water, 'cause it was fairly thick. I don't think it would interfere with carving, if you mixed it, say 60&#37; or 70% water.... but the only way to find out for sure is to try it on something punky.

[Manuka Jock]

Yeah , I tried white (pva) water mix , very thin , almost like water .
I brushed it on the platter in the pic , before it came apart .
It worked ok.
Maybe , as you say , the soaking method may be the better way .

I spose I better get a big , lidded container of some sort .
One thing with pva , its plentiful and cheap :)

thanks OGYT I forgot that one .:-

[echnidna]

Wonder how 2 pac Wattyl 7008 would go, it sets quite hard.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I've found that an overnight soak in dilute PVA only penetrates a few mm into the wood. It doesn't necessarily need to penetrate into the cell walls, just any gaps between the cells, but it takes almost as long.

It's a workable method, I've done a couple of spalted goblets like this. But you need to soak, dry, turn a 1/4", soak, dry, turn a 1/4", soak, dry... until it's closely roughed to shape.

The same is true with most other methods - it seems you either need to leave it for a really, really long soak, long enough for it to become water-logged (which ain't exactly feasible if you're using a 2 pac epoxy. :rolleyes:) or you need to look at other methods - such as using a vac pump to create an extra atmosphere of pressure to help "push" the stabiliser in, hopefully getting the job done more quickly.

If you're using Tung Oil, you'll probably find it's back to the "turn a bit and wait" routine as it'd take a loooong time for the Tung to dry throughout the whole blank - near the surface sets first. So it's more a case of "leave 24hr to dry, turn until wet, leave 24hr..." Oh, yeah... As you'll probably be into "wet" wood by the time you've finished turning, you've no choice but to do wet sanding... ie. the sandpaper will clog more quickly. But it also gives far better results IMHO. :)