An aid to self-critique

[rsser]

This is only a checklist and a lot more could be said:

http://www.woodturner.org/community/chapters/eval_form_2004.pdf

Maybe forumites could suggest some more pointed criteria re line/form, thickness and style. Yes, aesthetics is a matter of taste but equally there are some lines that turn off most viewers and others that draw them to pick up the piece for a closer look. "Look and feel" go together in a good piece IMO.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Ern, good checking list. Printed and saved. I look forward to the wealth of suggestions that may follow, but hope that the list remain as concise as possible to retain effectiveness.

[Calm]

This is only a checklist and a lot more could be said:

http://www.woodturner.org/community/chapters/eval_form_2004.pdf

Maybe forumites could suggest some more pointed criteria re line/form, thickness and style. Yes, aesthetics is a matter of taste but equally there are some lines that turn off most viewers and others that draw them to pick up the piece for a closer look. "Look and feel" go together in a good piece IMO.


Thanks Ern, good checking list. Printed and saved. I look forward to the wealth of suggestions that may follow, but hope that the list remain as concise as possible to retain effectiveness.

On most subjects Ern i agree whole heartedly. Sorry but on this occasion i must disagree on principle.

My day job is Accountant and Compliance paperwork filler outerer for the local cemetery. Dept of Humas Services (Victoria, Australia) thinks the best way to make it simple is to add another form. regardless of the fact there are already a couple in use for the same thing.

Paperwork arrrrrrrrrrrrgh

I admire your effort and good intentions to try and get the forum back on track instead of the rubbish and anal crap that has worked it's way into the top of the lists towards the end of last week.

Until this time i have read and participated in these forums to

1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
2. Meet and converse with like minded individuals
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
3. Help fellow members by conveying my personal knowledge.
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
4. Pick up tips on Woodworking
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
5. Learn a better way to do something than the present way i am using
1. Help others especially when it comes to safety
6. Have some light hearted fun - not at someone else's expence !!!!!

Did i mention that sometimes we think we are doing something safely but others may see the HAZARDS we didnt identify.

My everyday job handles the results of these issues.

Check out the Worksafe adds on the tele eg. Ron Barrassi.

Spelling, punctuation, pronunciation and all those other things were never considered when they voted the Melbourne lord mayor into office.
John Soh what an ideal person to put forward in this issue.

A couple of times there have been posts that reveal work practices that by others can be seen to be extremely dangerous.

This is the area that really needs to be highlighted. Making sure that every wood worker is able to sit down and have tea with their family instead off being in hospital or waiting for me at work next week should be our highest priority.

If someone promotes a product and does not spell it right the best way to make your feelings felt is to not buy from them, dont answer them and guess what they get no replies to their treads. But to find issue with the fact that others dont mind mistaes is none of your business.

If someone consistently spells badly dont read therir posts. But dont complain if others dont care.

What others dont care about is listening to your constant whinging about issues that others are not concerned with and are doing noone harm.

Lets get this forum back to what it does best. Helping each other in a freindly way to enjoy what we all have a common interest in. WOODWORKING

And so say all of me.

Sometimes it is better to shut up and say nothing.

I specialise in writing letters to people who me off I do it all day!!!!!

[hughie]

[

quote=Calm;570138]On most subjects Ern i agree whole heartedly. Sorry but on this occasion i must disagree on principle.

My day job is Accountant and Compliance paperwork filler outerer for the local cemetery. Dept of Humas Services (Victoria, Australia) thinks the best way to make it simple is to add another form. regardless of the fact there are already a couple in use for the same thing.

Paperwork arrrrrrrrrrrrgh

I admire your effort and good intentions to try and get the forum back on track instead of the rubbish and anal crap that has worked it's way into the top of the lists towards the end of last week.

Until this time i have read and participated in these forums to

1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
2. Meet and converse with like minded individuals
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
3. Help fellow members by conveying my personal knowledge.
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
4. Pick up tips on Woodworking
1. Help others especially when it comes to Safety
5. Learn a better way to do something than the present way i am using
1. Help others especially when it comes to safety
6. Have some light hearted fun - not at someone else's expence !!!!!

Did i mention that sometimes we think we are doing something safely but others may see the HAZARDS we didnt identify.

My everyday job handles the results of these issues.

Check out the Worksafe adds on the tele eg. Ron Barrassi.

Spelling, punctuation, pronunciation and all those other things were never considered when they voted the Melbourne lord mayor into office.
John Soh what an ideal person to put forward in this issue.

A couple of times there have been posts that reveal work practices that by others can be seen to be extremely dangerous.

This is the area that really needs to be highlighted. Making sure that every wood worker is able to sit down and have tea with their family instead off being in hospital or waiting for me at work next week should be our highest priority.

If someone promotes a product and does not spell it right the best way to make your feelings felt is to not buy from them, dont answer them and guess what they get no replies to their treads. But to find issue with the fact that others dont mind mistaes is none of your business.

If someone consistently spells badly dont read therir posts. But dont complain if others dont care.

What others dont care about is listening to your constant whinging about issues that others are not concerned with and are doing noone harm.

Lets get this forum back to what it does best. Helping each other in a freindly way to enjoy what we all have a common interest in. WOODWORKING

And so say all of me.

Sometimes it is better to shut up and say nothing.

I specialise in writing letters to people who me off I do it all day!!!!!
[/QUOTE]




Oh my what have we have unleashed..............:U Ern :no:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

There've been several times I've tried working from checklists, mainly competition pieces, and I've found it just ain't for me. For self-critique I can't go past putting the piece back on a shelf for a few weeks/months and then simply picking it up and looking at it. As oft as not, the minor flaws leap out and practically poke me in the eye. :rolleyes:

That's why I'm rarely content with any of my work... I've yet to turn anything that passes that test. :(


Yes, aesthetics is a matter of taste but equally there are some lines that turn off most viewers and others that draw them to pick up the piece for a closer look. "Look and feel" go together in a good piece IMO.

I'll agree with this, but I've found that it's very, very hard to preplan something with widespread appeal. Sure, you can sit down and sketch out something nice, but what you've sketched is a side or elevation view. It may look good that way. but what about when viewed isometrically? ie. from any other angle?

I've found this to be a more noticeable problem with my goblets... look fine viewed side on, but when put on a coffee table or similar "normal" viewing situation they look... "naff." :shrug: Perhaps I should concentrate on building some eye-level tall coffee tables? :roll:

So I'm working on the 1,000 monkeys with typewriters plan... if I keep production up, sooner or later I'll have to stumble across a MacBeth. :D

[ticklingmedusa]

At my level I can sometimes produce a piece thats nice to look at but never even close to 100% of the time.
If I look at it long enough I find something I don't like.
Great idea putting it into a checklist format.
Its printed and taped up next to the lathe.
Something else I've been meaning to do to get a better feel for form is roll into a library and borrow some volumes showing classic pottery from different cultures.

I like Skew's Approach:" So I'm working on the 1,000 monkeys with typewriters plan... if I keep production up, sooner or later I'll have to stumble across a MacBeth. :D"<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
__________________


Thanks Ern,
tm

[Frank&Earnest]

For self-critique I can't go past putting the piece back on a shelf for a few weeks/months and then simply picking it up and looking at it. As oft as not, the minor flaws leap out and practically poke me in the eye. :rolleyes:



Can't but envy you for that, Skew. It will take a long time for me to reach that level. In the meantime, I will check for torn wood and sanding marks and tick off the list...:)

[rsser]

Yep, mushroom cloud rising Hughie!

David .. yeah, I hate paperwork, and this eg. touched a nerve clearly. But it's for the turner him/herself, as a set of points to consider. I'm not asking folk to rate a piece and post the results ... heaven forbid!

And I agree that sitting with a piece, during and after, is valuable. And that application in producing a form or effect is essential. That said, I think we can hasten our approach to something desirable by being clear in our minds as we go as to what it is we must, and want, to achieve.

As they say, if you don't have a direction, anywhere you end up will do ... but in the case of nice bits of wood, 'anywhere' IMO will likely not do them justice.

K, rant over.
.

[Calm]

Ern

sorry i misinterpreted your reasons for the sheet.

maybe i should copy/paste my thoughts to another thread same section.

Humble apologies:B :B

[thefixer]

I admire your effort and good intentions to try and get the forum back on track instead of the rubbish and anal crap that has worked it's way into the top of the lists towards the end of last week.


The above mentioned is what some of here view as top entertainment value. Beats the hell out of soapies on the telly:p

Cheers
Shorty

[Calm]

The above mentioned is what some of here view as top entertainment value. Beats the hell out of soapies on the telly:p

Cheers
Shorty

By answering this i am only contributing to the tripe.

But one last word from me and i will then ignore any posts relating to this issue. If a few of us do this then the topic will meet its own timely death.

Entertainment - i am the first to jump up and down, encourage others and join in. There should be more of it.

But lets make sure it is for everyone not a few at the expense of others.

Dwarf Tossing, circus "Weirdo's" and other entertainment has been frowned on for quite some time.

The news this weekend in Melbourne of two boys stabbed at a party invaded by others and a group of teenagers driven into "deliberately" by an adult after a disagreement, never mentioned entertainment but i guess those inflicting it enjoyed it. Maybe their fun will begin if they get to jail.

With most of the forum members that are game to have their age showing being over 40 (yes adults) and with guests viewing (the public, yes the public, gawd the public)

I see no reason that we could not set a good example and make our fun/entertainment without the personal denigration of some of our own. Maybe we can change the world for the better.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

My apologies also, Ern. I understood your point and intended to make one of my own, but lost the plot somewhere in there, as usual. :doh:

There are really two seperate areas that any item can be criticised in: technical and aesthetic.

Now, even if I used your check-list for a self-critique, I tend to turn a blind eye to any technical errors on a freshly turned piece - no matter how critical or impartial I try to be. A small area of tear-out, or some chatter marks? Nar, they're nothing to worry about. But after a few weeks, with a few other turnings between to distance the piece from the event, I'll look at those same flaws using the exact same list and they become totally unacceptable. "Why didn't I fix that when I had the chance?" type thing. I don't know why I do that, but I know I do and no matter how I try to avoid it it still happens. I guess it's a mental attitude thing. :-

As for the aesthetics, or form, of the piece... it's easy to have them included in your check-list (eg. scalability of features, etc) but I seem to be incapable of impartially evaluating my own forms. Again, I don't know why: give me a piece I haven't seen before and I've no problems whatsoever in telling people what they did wrong. :p Show me one of mine and all of a sudden I'm unsure of what's wrong, even though I know it's not quite right... it's a sudden mental fog.

The only reliable way I've found to evaluate the form of my pieces is to give them to a non-turner and ask them "what do you think?" And be prepared for some harsh criticisms. :( I don't usually ask the same of other turners, 'cos they tend to look at the technical aspects first, which tend to colour their view of the aesthetics. ie. A perfect form just isn't perfect in their eyes, if it has poor execution. :rolleyes:

And I've gone and digressed again, haven't I? :- I'd better shut up now.

[joe greiner]

Thanks for the checklist, Ern. But I don't read it as intended primarily for self-critique. Seems to be directed more to judges in contests or art/craft fairs to ensure more objective ranking - can be quite subjective otherwise. Note the last checklist item: "Provide the artist with some ideas for changing the work ..." Even so, it still functions for self-critique, so that we can consider the elements of judging, and address them.

Joe

[rodent]

Sounds great Ern print out 30 sheets , when we come over shall we go over a few of your pieces mmmn .All poking aside yes this is a good idea for self checking any piece going into a competition , BUT do we really need this( form) of conformity ? to twist , strain and destroy creativity .Nobody I know is perfect that's Gods domain ,but yes we do need to assess our turning from time to time ,thats what our turning mates are for . To deflate our ego's yes ? No part of this dribble is meant to offend Ern ,but i just read the bowl dribble and correctness with stuffing ruffled my feathers a little ,but come on when your being creative the brain is pushed past it's norm , so it's hard to be logical and correct in finish form and style all at the same time . sorry ern just my opinion .:C:oo::rolleyes::D:):-:wink::cool::?

[rsser]

That's right Joe, it's a guide for AAW judges and the like.

I think it useful as a guide to help evaluate our own efforts ... as the kind of thing 'another set of eyes' might light upon .... which we can do in the privacy of our own shed.

Skew, in the rush to finish a piece I end up doing the same ... not looking for or ignoring obvious faults. In time, since they do stare out at your later, you add them to your own mental checklist.

[Sebastiaan56]

The only reliable way I've found to evaluate the form of my pieces is to give them to a non-turner and ask them "what do you think?" And be prepared for some harsh criticisms. :( I don't usually ask the same of other turners, 'cos they tend to look at the technical aspects first, which tend to colour their view of the aesthetics. ie. A perfect form just isn't perfect in their eyes, if it has poor execution. Which leads to the question of the criteria which the checklist seeks to address. I get lots of ooh aahs from my family etc but Ive never had the b@lls to put something in to a competition for a more technical appraisal. The checklist still relies on terms such as "a judgment call; form does not relate to function or where object is not aesthetically pleasing" and "Some changes/additions/deletions of elements would increase the impact of the work". Here we are back into the opinion of the viewer or of the concensus of what constitutes good turning.

And here lies the rub Horatio. We have had conversations here about art, about where is our craft/art heading but execution seems to be a prerequisite for any kind of artistic achievement. Im pretty critical of the technical aspects of my work, but the artistic worth?, I can only please my sensibility. It puts an onerous burden on the judge, quite apart from the technical bias Skew has pointed out. I quite like varying the thickness of walls on some items, it adds interest, maybe my taste is not with the concensus. Wouldnt be the first time.

However, as a beginning turner, its a great list of things to think about and point to areas I can improve,

Sebastiaan

[RETIRED]

Not on assessing your own work but as a general reminder to those entering competitions or exhibitions: Make sure that you enter the piece in the right category.

IE, Is it primararily spindle turning, bowl turning or a turned sculpture? What category best fits the majority of work on the piece?

[Frank&Earnest]

.... maybe my taste is not with the concensus. Wouldnt be the first time.

Sebastiaan

... spare a thought for me, then: it looks like mine is never with it...

______________
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.:p

[Sebastiaan56]

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

I take it you're onto Neil's favourite website as well,

[Frank&Earnest]

I take it you're onto Neil's favourite website as well,

My apologies, I thought you were being snobbish...:) :wink:

________________
Latina lingua uti hoc loco aptum non esse omnibus manifestum est :D

[orraloon]

Hi,
My method is rather simple.
Can I let other people see it? Yes then on the shelf or no it is utter shyte then bin or firewood.
One can suffer for ones art at times.

Regards
John

[Allan at Wallan]

My two bobs worth!

Having been in the photographic club scene for quite a few
years I can see some interesting comparisons with woodworking.

I can take a photograph of friends drinking coffee at an
outdoor cafe. The resultant photograph may show a light
pole appearing to protrude from a subject's head or an
intrusive bystander sticking their thumb in the air. Such a
photograph may provide eternal pleasant memories of the
occasion and will be greatly treasured.

I might also turn an item from wood which is poorly designed,
has cracks and lacks a suitable finish. Nevertheless it may
hold a special meaning and I wont discard it.

Some people like to create their own thing. Conformity is
non-existent to them. They like to challenge authority in
their own way. Sometimes "good enough" is "near
enough" for them. To have created something may be
somewhat of an achievement anyway.

However, I believe Ern has commenced this thread with
one main intention. If we are to submit any work for
assessment or discussion then be aware there are standards.
We must recognise such standards and to depart from
them drastically could result in disappointment.

Thanks Ern - I have retained a copy for my use.

Allan

____________________________________________

I am not at all worried about dying
... but just hope I am not there at the time.

[Frank&Earnest]

Some people like to create their own thing. Conformity is
non-existent to them. They like to challenge authority in
their own way. Sometimes "good enough" is "near
enough" for them. To have created something may be
somewhat of an achievement anyway.

However, I believe Ern has commenced this thread with
one main intention. If we are to submit any work for
assessment or discussion then be aware there are standards.


... or some of these people are perfectionists and, while not giving a fig about what other people think, want to understand the criteria for themselves.

[rsser]

To be frank, this Ernest (boom tish) had a slightly different motivation for posting the link, one stimulated by the recent thread about selling work and one several months ago about professional woodturning.

It hinges on whether you are happy just to amuse yourself with turning or whether you are going to show your work say to friends and family or at shows.

Couple of years ago went to some effort to attend a display of ww clubs' work and the quality of many of the turned pieces made it a waste of time.

To get a positive response to your work clearly you need to be able to see your work as others might. Friends and family are likely to use different yardsticks to give you a response from judges in shows or potential customers you are asking to pay a hundred bucks, or a thousand, for a decorative piece.

To get to the point ... I put the checklist up as an aid to training your own eye if you're interested in getting better evaluations from others. And I agree that many items have implicit and debatable criteria ... fine; we develop our own as we go but often don't articulate or test them against others.

[Sebastiaan56]

My apologies, I thought you were being snobbish...

________________
Latina lingua uti hoc loco aptum non esse omnibus manifestum est

No probs, mine all come from http://www.yuni.com/library/latin_1.html , although Ive had a whim to learn latin, looks like a wonderful language, logical

I googled " Latina lingua uti hoc loco aptum non esse omnibus manifestum est" with no result, please enlighten

Sebastiaan

[Frank&Earnest]

It is obvious to all that using the Latin language in this place is not appropriate. :) Just me being a PITA...:D