Fixin me ugly fugly dial!!

[Wild Dingo]

Need a good portrait manipulation program... yeah okay it can do other stuff but mainly fixing faces... ie mine!!

No were planning on doing our own wedding photos for the daughters wedding from making the album to printing the photos to taking them and therefore making them right. and with another 2 daughters getting hitched in the next 12 months thers going to be a great need for something like this

I think theres one thats for the professionals... what do they use? professional photographers I mean

[dennford]

The best prog' in my mind and possibly the one you are thinking of as being one the pro's use would be "Adobe Photoshop", but be warned it aint for beginners. I worked in the photog' business for some time and have used photoshop for years - still only know a little. Not only that but you may be shocked at the price of it - without having a look I guess you wont get much change out of $1600.
There are other prog's out there thatare more than capable of doing what you want (including some freebies) but to be quite honest for your daughters wedding you wouldn't want anything but the best so the alternatives are

1 go for broke and pay a pro'

2 is there someone that you know can do the job

3spend the next year or so learning a photo' manipulation prog'

Denn

[Pops]

Hi Ding,

Yes, what Denn said mate. Done some fiddling myself, digital photos and software manipilation.

My experience is; You can make a good photo a bit better with the software BUT is almost impossible to make a bad photo really good even with professional software abilities.

Sooo, if you really do need to cut costs, get a mate with a GOOD digital camera to take the main photos and get everybody else that attends to take as many photos on their own cameras as possible.

Then get all your friends to send you all their photos so you can pick the very best out of the whole lot.

A friend of mine did exactly that and ended up with about 1/4 of the Album photos being from friends that captured that magic moment or missing scene or Aunt that missed all the other photos. They even selected two of mine for their album, but I took over 50, (mostly duds of course).

Oh ! They aslo only 'touched up' a few of the photos, on a cheap program, just darkened the image or sharpened it a bit or cropped it, (cut that Aunt out etc.).

So mate I reckon you can still get a great album without spending a bucket of money on fancy software or real fancy (read expensive)cameras.

Best of luck.

Cheers
Pops

[Wild Dingo]

Cheers fellas :2tsup:
Pretty much what I thought but had to ask anyways!

Ive got the plans for the veneer timber album I think if memory serves via Wendy so thats sorted the missus is going to get me a new ubeaut digimal SLR camera when she nicks of to Singypore in 10 days time... so its just up to me to learn the thing in time for the first wedding (Dec 1) I think there will be a fair few digimal cameras there since pretty much everyone thats going has one so hopefully I can punch their lights out after theyve drunk the bar tab dry and nick their cards... they can have the camera no worries... that way Im sure to get many more than I miss eh!! :;

Anyways cheers
Shane

[dennford]

Why not go to the Adobe site and download a free trial for 30 days. That way it will give you an idea of what to expect from a full blown digital image prog'

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop

Denn

[Amb]

'The Gimp' is suppose to be a good free alternative to photoshop :wink:.
I think its about a 15 MB download (you will need to download help files also) from here:

http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html

Have a read of the other pages on that site for more info. Remember to only work on copies of your photos, its very easy to stuff up.
Cheers.

[MajorPanic]

WD,

If you need a hand with PhotoShop give me a yell, only too willing to lend a hand. :U

[ian]

Need a good portrait manipulation program... yeah okay it can do other stuff but mainly fixing faces... ie mine!!

No were planning on doing our own wedding photos for the daughters wedding from making the album to printing the photos to taking them and therefore making them right. and with another 2 daughters getting hitched in the next 12 months thers going to be a great need for something like this

I think theres one thats for the professionals... what do they use? professional photographers I meanShane

the absolute best (and cheapest) photo manipulation program is the one inside the camera you're going to buy.

it's the one the pros use all the time.

get the image right when you take it and it wont need tweaking

Photoshop and it's kin (I use Corel Photopaint) is for farting arround with one or two photos in a thousand not for fixing most shots.

everyone has a preference in cameras, a good place to go for ideas is http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech.htm

Important points:

who is going to be the designated photographer?
It shouldn't be you as you'll be too busy being "father of the bride"

get a friend who is interested in photography give them the camera and tell them to learn how to use it, and I mean really learn. Shoot a thousand or two photos experimenting with sun angle, flash setting, exposure compensation, the different programs within the camera, etc.
I'd volunteer, but by the time you paid my air fare, a local pro would be cheaper.

once you know what works best when you wont need Photoshop and you'll be able to do what needs doing with the software that comes free with the camera.

Also, printing photos yourself is a good way to spend a lot of money very very quickly.
I can get 6x4 prints commercially for 15 cents each, (29 cents if I can't be bothered shopping arround)
printing them myself costs upwards of $1 just in ink and paper.



ian

[Cliff Rogers]

Struth Ding!!!! Fotoshop your flam'n head?????

She'd hav'ta be the metalbasha's version. :D

[Harry72]

Here's an idea, put a couple disposalable camera's on each table... then pick the best shots, betcha some will make you laugh:D

For the main photo's it is advisable to get a real pro... you only get one shot after all!

[echnidna]

I agree with the others, you can't turn a crappy photo into a good one.

But a decent editor can improve a good photo.

Forget Gimp and the freebies, Get a decent program Shane.

Paint Shop Pro Version 8 or later is a great easy to use program and theres heaps of tutorials online. Its now owned by Corel

look at this its very cheap, fully legal and only got 6 hours left to run
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Corel-Paint-Shop-Pro-X-Retail-Media-Brand-New-with-Key_W0QQitemZ200143016207QQihZ010QQcategoryZ41878QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bitingmidge]

Ding,

Gimp is good, but it's not quite up to Photoshop in user-friendliness, and there's a better choice for clots like us:

PHOTOSHOP ELEMENTS. Yep, it's about 90% of the real thing, and you and I will never learn enough to understand what's missing anyway. It'll do all you want, and cost about $150.00.

Then, take up the Major's offer and Robert'll be your mother's brother.

Check out Ken Rockwell's site as well, specially his 2007 Camera Guide (http://kenrockwell.com/tech/2007-05-what-camera.htm). Before you do that though, read his 2006 guide for an overview (http://kenrockwell.com/tech/2006-camera-guide.htm).

He talks the kind of language that beginners understand, and people who know a bit get jealous of.

He covers "all the cameras needed by people who want photos, as opposed to wanting fancy cameras." which I'm guessing is you!

cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[MajorPanic]

..............
Photoshop and it's kin (I use Corel Photopaint) is for farting arround with one or two photos in a thousand not for fixing most shots........ian

You better tell all the digital printing labs they are using the wrong program then...............

PhotoShop is the INDUSTRY STANDARD for photo manipulation & has very powerful tools for batch processing 1-9999 photos in one hit.

[Burnsy]

Shane, I'm with Harry, you only get one shot at it, we used a mob called wedding works photography and just got a basic package for around $500. Basically just pay for a photographer, film and processing. The photographer we had was brilliant and was not a pain in the ???? stuck up pratt like allot of our friends had. We did what we wanted and she photographed. Good thing is you get to keep all the negatives, you get one copy of every photo and the whole lot burnt to CD. (my avatar was taken by them)

Compared to the price many were charging and the level of service given they come highly recommended from us.

http://www.weddingworksphotography.com.au/

[Ashore]

Possibly the only answer http://www.new-face.com.au/ though even then :rolleyes:

[Cliff Rogers]

Here's an idea, put a couple disposalable camera's on each table... then pick the best shots, betcha some will make you laugh:D

Do that what ever you do 'cos some of them are "Priceless" :2tsup:

[JDarvall]

:D ... can see dingos next thread...

Got a flamin brand new spanking face today. Cost me 10 grand. Can't afford that new land crusier now. but bloody hell !...it was worth it. :U

[ian]

You better tell all the digital printing labs they are using the wrong program then...............

PhotoShop is the INDUSTRY STANDARD for photo manipulation & has very powerful tools for batch processing 1-9999 photos in one hit.So what ?
I can batch process a whole CD worth of photos (using auto adjust) through my local Fuji kiosk.
But big deal
I'm not saying it and it's ilk are not great programs when you need to correct for the school's stage lights all being set to a different colour temperature — the point that needs to be made is it's better to get the exposure right (and not have the light pole growing out of the bride's head) when you take the shot in the first place.


ian

[dennford]

Okay let's presume that you intend doing the whole thing yourself.

First thing, as has already been said, being one of the major "combatants" you wont have time to take pic's yourself so let's presume that you have one or several people taking pic's and handing you the results on a cd.

Now I doubt very much that I could take a thousand photos and not want to improve on a good number of them so can we presume that youwill also want to do so

Apart from the arguments for and against various prog's the whole thing then is going to revolve around your own (very honest) appraisal of your artistic aptitude and your ability to learn what some would term a complex programme (after all you did ask what the pro's use).

The other thing that has been mentioned and I had omitted is the fact that adobe do another prog' called photoshop elements which although a scaled down (read that as dumbed up if you wish) version is more than capable of doing the job without being so intimidating.

Finally if this is the way you decide I am sure that there are any number of people that would offer assistance in learning such skills.

Denn

Bottom line
I love photoshop but think you would be better off with elements and as Cliff said get some disposable cameras on the tables (unlessyour guests are like me and would nick them)

Denn

[echnidna]

You better tell all the digital printing labs they are using the wrong program then...............

PhotoShop is the INDUSTRY STANDARD for photo manipulation & has very powerful tools for batch processing 1-9999 photos in one hit.

Have a look at the Corel website.
http://apps.corel.com/int/au/

Paint Shop Pro takes pride of place.

Reckon they mighta bought PSP from Jasc because corel found out it was better than Corel's photoshop.

[bitingmidge]

Reckon they mighta bought PSP from Jasc because corel found out it was better than Corel's photoshop.
Bob,

"Photoshop" is arguably the bit of software that Adobe built it's business on (as well as a couple of minor other things like the industry standard PDF producer). All others are Johnny come lately's.


So what ?
I can batch process a whole CD worth of photos (using auto adjust) through my local Fuji kiosk.

I hate it on Saturday afternoon when all those wedding photographers are queued up at the Fuji kiosk doing their auto adjusting, and I can't get in to get a pic of my dog!

Ian, your point was well made until you blew all your credibility! Thanks for the tip, but you really need to ask a few of the pros what they think!

Cheers,

P (auto adjusting myself as we speak!)
:D :D :D

[Black Ned]

Hey Ding!
Pay a professioal to take the photo's and give you a CD with all the shots. The you decide which ones to print and get them done in bulk at a kiosk for 15c a print. Alternatively give all the guests a copy of the CD and they can print their own. A few disposables left on tables will get group photos that those guests will relate too and make it more memorable for them to reminise (?).
You will be unable to get all the shots yourself and will be as mad as a dingo caught in a trap trying to chew you own leg off! Just get in and do what Daddy Dingo's do best. Just be the life of the party and spread all the gossip, stir some of the high and mighties and have a good time.

[Pops]

Hi Ding,

Forgot to mention it before. But what Denn and Midge said I have to agree with. I also have Photoshop Elements, had it for years and it does all that I need and all that I think you may need, (I ain't no photographer either). I even got rid of the brides freckles in one shot I took, just for fun. (I sent it to her and she liked it).

So if you do decide to go down the path of buying some software Photoshop Elements is a good and cheap choice in my opinion, and Major has offered help essentialy on the same program.

Cheers
Pops

[wheelinround]

Dingo I have Adobe Photoshop to bloody many $$$$ I also have Corel's Paintshop Pro http://apps.corel.com/int/au/psppxi.html this is as good as Photoshop but a fraction of the cost.
When you buy your ew camera these come with photo editing software some are great others usless as a phart in an elevator. Supposed to be for simple easy to use people :doh::doh: yeh right.

There are many on offer also free from mgazine CD/DVD either in Computer magazines or Digital photo magazines from time to time for the cost of the magazine. Pc-User http://www.pcuser.com.au/pcuser/hs2.nsf/dir/LatestEdition August editon may help you out choosing a camera also
APC http://apcmag.com/node/

or Digital Photo Review http://www.photoreview.com.au/.

[Stuart]

My 2 cents.

Real pros don't use the software in the camera. Real pros shoot RAW, then use a quality program to process the RAW format into final output.

That said, there is a reason why Photoshop is the beast that it is, and it comes down to even simple tasks like sharpening and colour correcting (which you do in the processing of the RAW image anyway). Sure, other programs can do an adequate job, some really well. It's a budget choice in the end.

Photoshop Elements is a pretty good cut down version, but is probably no better than Gimp, PSP etc.

You can get Adobe Photoshop quite cheaply if you don't want the latest version.

However, my choice - Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Designed for the pro photographer, handles all common formats (and all RAW formats known - each camera manufacturer has their own, and allows the RAW to be changed into a DNG - Digital Negative). Some really cool manipulation tools (not for special effects - for optimising the photo, so it looks exactly like you saw when you pushed the button), and great cataloging aspects for choosing just which shots you want. There are some features so new that they only just got into Adobe Photoshop CS3, and others that were held over to CS4. So it is right up there as far as "the latest image manipulation technology" goes.

Output for print, output already constructed web pages etc etc. Oh, and it is one of the easiest photo manipulation programs I have ever used, yet doesn't "take over" as programs designed for the average home user are prone to do. It may be easy, but it is designed for professionals, who won't take crap from their image program.

[dennford]

My 2 cents.

Real pros don't use the software in the camera. Real pros shoot RAW, then use a quality program to process the RAW format into final output.

That said, there is a reason why Photoshop is the beast that it is, and it comes down to even simple tasks like sharpening and colour correcting (which you do in the processing of the RAW image anyway). Sure, other programs can do an adequate job, some really well. It's a budget choice in the end.

Photoshop Elements is a pretty good cut down version, but is probably no better than Gimp, PSP etc.

You can get Adobe Photoshop quite cheaply if you don't want the latest version.

However, my choice - Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Designed for the pro photographer, handles all common formats (and all RAW formats known - each camera manufacturer has their own, and allows the RAW to be changed into a DNG - Digital Negative). Some really cool manipulation tools (not for special effects - for optimising the photo, so it looks exactly like you saw when you pushed the button), and great cataloging aspects for choosing just which shots you want. There are some features so new that they only just got into Adobe Photoshop CS3, and others that were held over to CS4. So it is right up there as far as "the latest image manipulation technology" goes.

Output for print, output already constructed web pages etc etc. Oh, and it is one of the easiest photo manipulation programs I have ever used, yet doesn't "take over" as programs designed for the average home user are prone to do. It may be easy, but it is designed for professionals, who won't take crap from their image program.


Just bought lightroom and haven't even loaded it on my machine yet (not enough power untill after an upgrade) so it's good to hear someone give it a good score.

Denn

[echnidna]

Bob,

"Photoshop" is arguably the bit of software that Adobe built it's business on (as well as a couple of minor other things like the industry standard PDF producer). All others are Johnny come lately's.



I hear what you say BM.

Which is conventional pro theory,

I don't think Corel is stupid,

So if Paint Shop Pro is crap,

Why did Corel Buy It?

And why is Corel promoting it at a higher degree than photoshop?

[dennford]

So if Paint Shop Pro is crap,

Why did Corel Buy It?

And why is Corel promoting it at a higher degree than photoshop?

PSP is not crap by any means, in fact it is a great programme and I have it on my computer. However the fact is that although it can do most things, it is only a shaddow of photoshop, when it comes to the technical stuff. Photoshop is the preffered prog' for medical photography, false color ir imaging manipulation, cartographic work, forensic and I could go on. yet I still believe PSP is a brilliant prog'.

secondly you ask why corel promote PSP above photoshop - simple, photoshop is not owned by corel so they would be rather silly to promote it above thier own product.

Denn

[MajorPanic]

My 2 cents.

Real pros don't use the software in the camera. Real pros shoot RAW, then....... & then, so I was abruptly told by 3 digital lab owners, convert to DNG format.... use a quality program to process the RAW/DNG format into final output..........

See here. http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/ (http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/)This open source does away with camera manufacturer specific format readers/plugins.


The Digital Negative (DNG) format is a non-proprietary, publicly documented, and widely supported format for storing raw camera data. Hardware and software developers use DNG because it results in a flexible workflow for processing and archiving camera raw data. You may also use DNG as an intermediate format for storing images that were originally captured using a proprietary camera raw format.

[ian]

Real pros don't use the software in the camera. Real pros shoot RAW, then use a quality program to process the RAW format into final output.I have to disagree.
a RAW image is just one that has been compressed using the manufacturer's own algorithm rather than JPEG, it is not RAW as in unprocessed — an unprocessed image from a 6 Megapixel camera would normally be represented by between 24 and 48 bits per pixel which without compression results in a 24 to 48Mb file.

The aim of the whole photographic exercise is to get the absolute best digital negative you can. (sorry for shouting) for this you use the software in the camera:
to compensate for shooting into the sun (some cameras have a built in program for this)
bracketing exposures
using spot, centre weighted or whatever metering
matching the flash output to what you're shooting
tweaking the colour response, contrast, saturation and such to the values you prefer or best suit the subject
changing the white balance to correct for the lighting (back when I mainly shot slides I'd always carry a roll or two of tungsten film for use under artificial light — you had to use filters for flouros)
avoiding red-eye by using pre-flash or mounting the flash off to one side

and technique

It's only after you get all this right or nearly so that you should plan on using Photoshop or whatever to publish the final photo


ian

[Stuart]

Compressed - yes. But a non-destructive compression. Comparing it to JPG is misleading, as jpeg is an incredibly destructive compression algorithm (very effective for the job it is intended for - not knocking JPG as a format). When I decompress my RAW images, yeah, I end up with a 40 odd MB file. But it got there non-destructively.

I use RAW as a term as the industry's accepted term, as there is no single RAW format - saves me saying MRW, RAF, DNG, CRW, CR2, KDC, DCR, NEF, ORF, PTX, PEF, ARW, SRF, X3F, ERF, MOS - any I missed?

At least RAW (other than above-mentioned non-destructive compression) has no other processing done to it before you get it into your computer. In processing the RAW format (see above list), you can choose to then accept the decisions the camera was making, but each and every one is your choice - you can modify every one of them.

I shoot RAW only (ok MRW in my case), then convert the image to DNG, and store it in that format. When I want a photo for something, I then process the image (initially through Lightroom, and send images over to Photoshop if they need the extra clout - normally don't - Lightroom is pretty powerful in its own right) and output based on need - could be TIFF, JPG, etc etc.

As to my initial statement - real Pros DO use RAW. Most Pro cameras offer little else.

They may then, in processing, choose to accept the camera's suggestions (contained in the metadata) for how it recommends the image to be processed, but they do that themselves, not in-camera.



BTW - Major - I'm not surprised by the reaction you got from the labs. Don't know how far into the industry DNG has gotten, but glad it is. Everything I shoot gets converted into DNG as I take it off the card, so that is the format I store it in. Glad to hear I'm adhering to industry best practice :) FWIW, Lightroom allows me to have the images converted automatically to DNG as it imports them into the computer, so that's my standard workflow. There are cameras that now shoot DNG natively (finally - a standard 'RAW' format). DNG for those that don't know, invented by.....ta-da....Adobe.

Getting right back to Dingo's original question - I recommend Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Not as cheap as many, but it keeps track of my 15,000 or so photographic library, and allows significant editing (totally non-destructive editing at that, which is amazing - if I completely balls it up, the original is untouched). The fact that it is totally non destructive means that each photo that I edit doesn't suddenly blow my library size out - if it did, every photo I edited would go from 8MB or so to 40MB or so. Most (all) photos need some form of processing, even if it is just accepting the camera's recommendations, and I rather not have my library go from its current size to one 4 times larger.

[wheelinround]

I have been using Adobe Photoshop since it was Aldus Photostyler still have original software and in comparison not much has changed in all those years maybe a few add ons. Package is still just a few hundred meg

Corel PSP uses/does RAW and uses all of Photoshop plugins as does many other photo editing software these days.
Big advantage of Corel now is its combing with Corel Draw and ULEAD Video Editing software as well as a buring package and Win DVD.
The only stupid thing Corel did ws dump its version of Linux.

Adobe is over priced well and truley for the AU market.
Professional well thats like the man who can create a work of art from wood with hand tools to a man who needs the latest and greatest in electrical and power tools to do the same. Like the argument between windows and Linux.

[MajorPanic]

I hear what you say BM.

Which is conventional pro theory,

I don't think Corel is stupid,

So if Paint Shop Pro is crap,

Why did Corel Buy It?

And why is Corel promoting it at a higher degree than photoshop?Bob,

Trot down to your local newsagent & have a look at the computer/digital mags. How many Corel Graphic Software based magazines do you see?

I use a very small local newsagent & even they have 3 different PhotoShop mags. These aren't just a "mugs guide to" they are issue # publications.
When I go to our much larger shopping centre newsagent I'm spoilt for choice with PhotoShop mags from the US, UK & Europe.

PaintShop Pro is a great program, don't get me wrong, but, it's aimed at a more domestic market.

Adobe don't have to promote Photoshop very much as it's the leader in it's field for professionals, this is very much like AutoCAD. The general public don't see too much promotion but I see the big mail-outs from Adobe & Autodesk promoting new versions, usually aimed at the pro end of the market. That's why these programs are 'industry standard' because the 'industry' is driven by professionals & not the general public.

[Stuart]

Can't remember the last time I was invited to the latest release presentation of PaintShopPro... Can't remember the first time either.

[wheelinround]

Bob,

Trot down to your local newsagent & have a look at the computer/digital mags. How many Corel Graphic Software based magazines do you see?

I use a very small local newsagent & even they have 3 different PhotoShop mags. These aren't just a "mugs guide to" they are issue # publications.
When I go to our much larger shopping centre newsagent I'm spoilt for choice with PhotoShop mags from the US, UK & Europe.

Yes thats right many need to be trained to use Phototshop and as its signed off by Pro's who should without a dout e able to just hook in and use it.

Paintshop Pro is simple to use and has online training etc even a Corel user group.

PaintShop Pro is a great program, don't get me wrong, but, it's aimed at a more domestic market.

Adobe don't have to promote Photoshop very much as it's the leader in it's field for professionals, this is very much like AutoCAD. The general public don't see too much promotion but I see the big mail-outs from Adobe & Autodesk promoting new versions, usually aimed at the pro end of the market. That's why these programs are 'industry standard' because the 'industry' is driven by professionals & not the general public.

Adobe doesn't promote gee last time I picked up any computer magazine it was full of it articles and how too's:doh:. With the price tags of $7k for Autocad a great program which you have to either buy so many add ons for or write them up yourself.

Hey the bigest thing here is that it is a product Dingo needs how far is he going to go with it............bit like buying a Mig welder and then buying a trolly to tote it round on:doh:




Can't remember the last time I was invited to the latest release presentation of PaintShopPro... Can't remember the first time either.

I have been invited never went and recently to ULEAD 11's release didn't go shyte weather and inner city.

Isn't it a bit odd all these magazines on the pro stuff for pro's in pro talk.

[echnidna]

So there'ya W.D. the good oil on photography

If'n yer gunna be a pro photographer buy photoshop.

If'n yer gunna stay amatuer use Paint Shop Pro and save heapsa loot.

[Gingermick]

Just get some cosmetic surgery then you wont have to worry about it

[Stringy]

Fix me ugly fugly dial,

Ding, why have you not supplied photos for the forumites to work with:rolleyes:.

Post photos on forum and send/pm un-compressed ones to those who wish to work on a fix. The results could be interesting and an improvement on the current dingo portrait.

You definitely have nothing to lose:D!