What are the "right" proportions for a goblet? [Archive]

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Frank&Earnest

31st August 2007, 12:43 AM

A recent thread raised these questions.

When you turn a goblet, is your purpose to create a functional object or a purely decorative one? In other words, do you stick to common glassware designs, e.g. length of stem approx. = length of bowl, diameter of base approx = diameter of rim, or go for something impractical but best indicative of your prowess with the lathe?

If you sell your goblets, which ones do your customers ask/buy?

If you show your goblets, do you think that functionality is given a high or a low rating by judges?

How far can you push the boundaries of standard design without compromising functionality?

Do you give a rat's? :)

I don't believe in straw polls, let's just have a discussion!:wink:

Cheers

hughie

31st August 2007, 06:01 PM

I'll jump in :U I suspect much of it is to do with what we all prefer/like etc. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Shape ands proportion and important aspects and no doubt we can agree on the basics. But for me its not an easy thing to put down. But rather I know it when I see it.

For me with goblets functionality is what I look for first then the 'art'.

Judging :- have yet to subject any of efforts to judgement other than my peers.

As to customers, mine vary alot to the point of wondering what if any standard exsists :C :no: :U

Skew ChiDAMN!!

31st August 2007, 06:32 PM

When you turn a goblet, is your purpose to create a functional object or a purely decorative one?

No. My purpose is to turn... everything else is incidental. :D

There is a form that I find pleasing and most of my goblets follow that form fairly closely, because they're usually "Oh, a lump of wood! I wonder what I can make out of this? Let's spin it and see" type projects. :-

I like a semi-closed bowl (ala brandy snifter) with the height at about the golden mean. Similarly, the rim (or lip, if you prefer) to max bowl diameter is also the golden mean, with the max dia. at 1/3 of the height of the bowl. My preferred stem length is 3/2 the height of the bowl, and the foot diameter about halfway between the rim dia and the max. bowl diameter.

To me, these give an elegant, classic shape. It's not necessarily what others like though; some people like more of a chalice shape, while others like 'orrible squat things that I'm more inclined to think of as mugs on legs. :rolleyes:

If you sell your goblets, which ones do your customers ask/buy?

The ones' they like. Some people have the oddest tastes and are happy to buy pieces that I'm not quick enough to bin. :shrug: I've given up trying to work out "what" sells, 'cos they all do, once(if!) you find the right buyer.

If you show your goblets, do you think that functionality is given a high or a low rating by judges?

Personally, I don't think functionality even enters the equation... not for a wood-turning competition anyway. Technique, finish, degree of difficulty and originality of design, yes. But functionality? No.

How far can you push the boundaries of standard design without compromising functionality?

Pretty damned far! So long as it holds water (well... alcoholic beverage. :wink:) there will be someone who's willing to use it.

For example, the corian-petalled goblet in this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=51263) has already been christened and actually works quite well. No question about functionality there, thankyouverymuch. :D The same can't be said about it's partner, the one with the grub, though. It actually holds about a jigger full, but it's like trying to drink from a dribble-glass. DAMHIKT. :rolleyes:)

The vast majority of my goblets are what I consider ornamental... not because they're "non-functional" but because I've turned them on the spur of the moment as a time-filler and they haven't been finished with food safety in mind. To make them truly functional is usually just a simple matter of rubbing down the inside of the bowl with fine grit paper and refinishing the inside with Rustin's Plastic Coating to provide an alcohol proof seal. :)

Christopha

31st August 2007, 06:36 PM

Frank&Earnest

31st August 2007, 07:50 PM

To be honest, the thought of drinking from a wooden goblet makes me shiver so if you are going to turn one I suggest a nice block of Waterford crystal might be the ideal blank to begin with....

I take your point, but it's horses for courses. I would not dream of drinking Penfolds Grange from anything else (material, not necessarily brand name:wink: ) but mulled wine around the fire in an alpine cabin... why not? (and forget the plastic coating):)

In any case, it appears that individual taste is spread on so wide a range that it does not really matter...

Skew ChiDAMN!!

31st August 2007, 08:12 PM

In any case, it appears that individual taste is spread on so wide a range that it does not really matter...

'Sactly!

but mulled wine around the fire in an alpine cabin... why not? (and forget the plastic coating):)

I tend to agree, but it's one thing to make 'em for yourself or close friends'n'family and a totally different thing if you're selling them as usable goblets to the general public.

Then, not only do you need to ensure the inside of the bowl is properly sealed but you need to be very particular about the timbers used. Spalted timbers (eg. Blackheart Sassafras), toxic woods (eg. laburnum) or timbers that many people have - or will develop - allergies to (eg. Cocobolo) are not food safe, no matter how pretty they look or how well you seal them...

('Tis another reason I say that mine are primarily ornamental. :wink:)

thefixer

31st August 2007, 10:09 PM

Functionality, form, appearance, resale value; who cares . I turn wood on my lathe into whatever comes my way.I turn because it gives me a sense of fulfillment and enjoyment and the only real critic that matters is swmbo. I just love to part that finished goblet, bowl, platter or whatever off and look at it and think "I made that" and i'm happy with it.

I post my pics on the forum because I am proud of what I have achieved. The criticism is taken on board but at end of the day I have had fun doing what I do and I hope to keep it that way.

As the old cliche goes "beauty is in the eye of the beer holder":p

I look back now to when I turned my first piece and remember how pleased i was with it, but now realise how ugly it is, but I still had that same sense of achievement then that I get now when I complete a turning.

Life is short so enjoy what you do and be happy that you have done the best you can and never stop learning.

Just my philosphical thoughts.

Cheers
Shorty

mick61

31st August 2007, 10:21 PM

Well said Shorty:2tsup: . I think it`s all a matter of personel taste. You can`t please everyone so you might aswell please the person you are makeing the goblet for or just please yourself. As for judgeing I think the same rules apply because It`s just someone elses opinion.
Mick:D

Christopha

31st August 2007, 10:42 PM

I really love my (red) wine and there is NO way that I would ever drink it from a wooden vessel.... and I ain't no wine snob... and Shorty is absolutely correct about it being about the turning. I have turned quite a few goblets (STACKS!) over the years but I do have to confess that 90% of them ended up ripped in half on the bandsaw so I could see how I had gone. The other 10% ended up in the bin, what else to do with them?
If you enjoy turning a particular form then for Godsake turn them.... if'n yer enjoys it then in the end yer will profit from it! (and I don't mean bluddy money!)

thefixer

31st August 2007, 10:43 PM

Frank&Earnest

31st August 2007, 10:54 PM

Spalted timbers (eg. Blackheart Sassafras), toxic woods (eg. laburnum) or timbers that many people have - or will develop - allergies to (eg. Cocobolo) are not food safe, no matter how pretty they look or how well you seal them...

('Tis another reason I say that mine are primarily ornamental. :wink:)

Never really thought about that. Point taken. Was only thinking of centuries old use of European timbers. :-

The main question then becomes: why not going straight for the ornamental without bothering with objects that have a supposedly functional purpose but can not fulfil it? Or, in other words, why making a goblet except in the rare case that it is the only worthwhile thing that could come out of the piece of wood available?

For the professional a good reason could be that some clients prefer goblets to other items, e.g vases or small boxes, even if they do not use them. Whatever sells. For a hobbyist, though, and if I understand correctly that's where Hughie, Shorty and Mick are heading, the only reason for making them would be that they are desired (possibly because usable) by family and friends, because the turning pleasure and aesthethic satisfaction could be equally achieved by any other non functional item.

ETA: now I know another reason: the joy of cutting them in half! Thanks Cristopha:D.

thefixer

31st August 2007, 11:15 PM

Never really thought about that. Point taken. Was only thinking of centuries old use of European timbers. :-

The main question then becomes: why not going straight for the ornamental without bothering with objects that have a supposedly functional purpose but can not fulfil it? Or, in other words, why making a goblet except in the rare case that it is the only worthwhile thing that could come out of the piece of wood available?

For the professional a good reason could be that some clients prefer goblets to other items, e.g vases or small boxes, even if they do not use them. Whatever sells. For a hobbyist, though, and if I understand correctly that's where Hughie, Shorty and Mick are heading, the only reason for making them would be that they are desired (possibly because usable) by family and friends, because the turning pleasure and aesthethic satisfaction could be equally achieved by any other non functional item.

ETA: now I know another reason: the joy of cutting them in half! Thanks Cristopha:D.

Somehow I just don't think you get it.:(

When I bring a new turning into the the house and my daughters fight over who is going to have it for their glory box , well that makes me a very happy dad indeed. It doesn't matter if it is a bowl or a platter or long stem goblet or even a short stem goblet. the point is; the people that matter the most to me are the same ones that appreciate my efforts and make me feel good .

Cheers
Shorty

Frank&Earnest

31st August 2007, 11:21 PM

Somehow I just don't think you get it.:(

When I bring a new turning into the the house and my daughters fight over who is going to have it for their glory box , well that makes me a very happy dad indeed. It doesn't matter if it is a bowl or a platter or long stem goblet or even a short stem goblet. the point is; the people that matter the most to me are the same ones that appreciate my efforts and make me feel good .

Cheers
Shorty

You are right: I do not get it. Why is your point different from mine:

the only reason for making them would be that they are desired by family and friends.

Communication is always a two way affair. An old boss of mine never said "You did not @#$%&* understand". He always said "we did not communicate". My apologies for not communicating more clearly for you.

thefixer

31st August 2007, 11:41 PM

You are right: I do not get it. Why is your point different from mine:

the only reason for making them would be that they are desired by family and friends.

Communication is always a two way affair. An old boss of mine never said "You did not @#$%&* understand". He always said "we did not communicate". My apologies for not communicating more clearly for you.

OK let me clarify. I am not a commercial turner, I am definately not an artist and nor am I an experienced or seasoned turner .I will probably never be good enough to have my work on public display and have no desire to do so.
All I am saying is that I enjoy what I do and really don't believe that there is a right or wrong in the finished article. What works for me may not work for others. As far as I'm concerned it is all about feeling good about ones owns achievements. That's the way my dad brought me up and I guess I will never change.

BTW. I've never had a boss that spoke like that:p

Cheers
Shorty

Frank&Earnest

31st August 2007, 11:45 PM

It has happened in many other threads where there has been an attempt to get a reasonable discussion of aesthetic values.

A lot of people feel compelled to say basically the same thing: "I do not care about them because I have only to please myself/my loved ones".

Ok. Point taken. Thank you for telling everybody. Those who start this kind of thread, though, would love to hear from people who do have aesthetic values and are willing to share their knowledge and opinions. (Ern, where are you? Help!:) )

thefixer

31st August 2007, 11:58 PM

It has happened in many other threads where there has been an attempt to get a reasonable discussion of aesthetic values.

A lot of people feel compelled to say basically the same thing: "I do not care about them because I have only to please myself/my loved ones".

Ok. Point taken. Thank you for telling everybody. Those who start this kind of thread, though, would love to hear from people who do have aesthetic values and are willing to share their knowledge and opinions. (Ern, where are you? Help!:) )

Hmmmm!

mick61

1st September 2007, 12:00 AM

Christopha

1st September 2007, 12:06 AM

Impress judges???? Ferchissakes the last ime I tried to do that I got 5 years just fer bein uglier than the woman what was the foreman of the bleedin' jury!

thefixer

1st September 2007, 12:08 AM

Impress judges???? Ferchissakes the last ime I tried to do that I got 5 years just fer bein uglier than the woman what was the foreman of the bleedin' jury!

now that's bloody funny:D :D :D :D :D

Frank&Earnest

1st September 2007, 12:12 AM

G`day maybe I have been slightly missunderstood I do turn pieces that are entered in competition so I am also trying to impress judges aswell maybe what I am trying to say is a good piece will closely fit the golden mean a bad one will not. Is that what you are after.
Mick:D

Bingo! Thank you! Now, if somebody jumps up saying that the golden mean is totally wrong, we will have a lively discussion. If nobody does, we can all go back and try it for ourselves, if we have not done it before, to see how we like it and form our own opinion. Isn't this what a forum is for?

score so far: golden mean 2 - others 0. It's getting interesting!:)

Christopha

1st September 2007, 12:12 AM

Skew ChiDAMN!!

1st September 2007, 12:16 AM

It has happened in many other threads where there has been an attempt to get a reasonable discussion of aesthetic values.

A lot of people feel compelled to say basically the same thing: "I do not care about them because I have only to please myself/my loved ones"

Part of the problem here is that there're just as many variations of form for a goblet as there are for a bowl. For every type of bowl, there's an equivalent type of goblet. Winged, hollow-form, double-ended, involute, segmented, whatever. Basically, the aesthetics that apply to one also apply to t'other. So any discussion of aesthetics for goblets is likely to go down the exact same path as the same discussion re bowls. :shrug:

(Anyway... I thought your initial questions was "why turn goblets?" :innocent:)

Frank&Earnest

1st September 2007, 12:24 AM

Ok, when I waspart of the panel judging the National Woodturning Comp with other better qualified gentlemen a few years ago goblets didn't get a gong..... BIG didn't get a gong.... Tiny wasn't in it either... timber selection got a small mention..... turning SKILL was the prmary criteria combined with many other contributing factors led to our unanimous choice of the winning piece. Goblets? Don't remember any...

Yeah, thats fine - Skew also said the same thing - but that is to be expected, isn't it: in a Woodturning Competition what matters is turning skill, what else? Is there maybe a suggestion in that experience that goblets do not offer a lot of opportunities to display such skills? (maybe because it is golden mean or nothing?:wink: )

Frank&Earnest

1st September 2007, 12:39 AM

Part of the problem here is that there're just as many variations of form for a goblet as there are for a bowl. For every type of bowl, there's an equivalent type of goblet. Winged, hollow-form, double-ended, involute, segmented, whatever. Basically, the aesthetics that apply to one also apply to t'other. So any discussion of aesthetics for goblets is likely to go down the exact same path as the same discussion re bowls. :shrug:

Wonderful! The plot thickens! (or are you saying that the discussion about bowls has been done to death and I should go look for it?)

(Anyway... I thought your initial questions was "why turn goblets?" :innocent:)

No, the original questions was about proportions, and you indicated your preferences, thank you. The question took that turn on the basis of your excellent explanation of good reasons why your goblets, and most goblets generally, should only be "decorative". Still very interested in your answer though. :U

hughie

1st September 2007, 10:11 PM

[So any discussion of aesthetics for goblets is likely to go down the exact same path as the same discussion re bowls. :shrug:

Yup thats the way I see it also and its been done a few times.

As to being done to death, dunno ?.........thats probably a matter of opinion....:U :U :U :U

Hickory

3rd September 2007, 11:51 AM

Best looking proportions for a goblet is the ones you like the looks of best. There are no real rules just suggestions and opinions. Kids today say "If it feels good do it" same holds true, If it looks good to you , you got a winner. Whatever blow up your skirt, tickles your fancy, wiggles your waggle, toots your tooter. Now, to get someone else to like it.....Thats another adventure.

rsser

3rd September 2007, 09:34 PM

Sigh; can see why you pointed me in this direction F&E.

I have no problem with folk turning for their own satisfaction and maybe then giving the pieces away. I've done a heap of this, and all my family and friends have pieces of mine from early days.

But we shouldn't confuse our enthusiasm or the responses of those to whom we give our work with informed critical opinion.

There's a learning curve with all work and if we want to improve then we submit to critical review and learn from others in order to rate well.

Skew has generously shared his experience with us in respect of goblet form. Worth bookmarking as well as trying out, back in the workshop.

We have to educate our own 'eye' as well as those around us if the practice of woodturning is to gain the same acceptance here as it has in the US for example, where decorative turning can actually make a living for skilled practitioners.

'K, rant over.
.

Skew ChiDAMN!!

3rd September 2007, 09:54 PM

Skew has generously shared his experience with us in respect of goblet form. Worth bookmarking as well as trying out, back in the workshop.

That's just the form that I find most appealing now.

A couple of years back, I would've said otherwise (being in my "squat" phase) and 10 years from now I reckon I'll have moved to something completely different. :shrug:

I hope my tastes are improving over time, but I wouldn't bank on it. :D

powderpost

3rd September 2007, 10:23 PM

Like others, I have turned a lot of goblets. One of my customers was an Italian who loved his wine, had two "sets" of wooden goblets, one for red and one set for white wine.
In an effort to come up with a "good" shape, I turned a dozen of the dam things, and put them on a shelf. Every victim that walked into my shed was asked to arrange them from good to bad. After 12 months, I correlated the results and found the most popular had the bowl about half the total height. The bowl diameter was about two third the bowl height. The most popular bowl shape had a slight inwards turn so that the rim was slightly smaller than the widest part of the bowl. I cannot remember how many opinions were expressed, but it was in the hundreds. That was about 15 years ago now. It would be interesting to hear from any body who has done something similar, recently. The whole exercise was interesting.
Jim

Frank&Earnest

4th September 2007, 12:01 AM

First of all, being Italian born I feel obliged to offer the wine drinking community my humblest apologies for the bad example provided by your Italian customer. :D As regards your very interesting research, the results seem to prove that people chose according to traditional criteria: if I look at my glassware, it has very much the same proportions. After centuries of production, there is obviously a standardisation of basic criteria. Be it the chicken or the egg, taste guides production and production modifies taste. Fads come and go but the best remains.

This does not preclude brilliant new designs emerging every now and then, like the champagne cup purportedly modelled on Josephine Bonaparte's breast, but the room for innovation is fairly limited. Have you been able to put your hands on some good new design lately?:D

Timbre Surfer

27th March 2020, 08:43 PM

Hi all,
Long time lurker, rarely poster, deep digger...😉.
With this isolation due to covid, I have finally got time to do some turning, it's only been ten years...
Anyway, I've turned some small goblets out of a cumquat trunk. It is a lovely white timber, and I would like to keep the lightness of the timber, but seal it to use them to drink sherry and other like aperitif's. There best I've come across is to dissolve beeswax into mineral oil 1:5.
Is there anything else that you would recommend?

Timbre Surfer

27th March 2020, 08:45 PM

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