Honing Compound Mess, HSS Blades, Diamond Plates, Chisel Blade angles

[thumbsucker]

Hi - I have a bunch of questions around sharpening and honing.

1- Honing Compound - I have a Veritas MK2 Honing guide and I use it on my King stones 1200 - 4000 - 6000. I have been using the Veritas honing compound on a bunch of mediums with various levels of success. The problem is that the Green Honing Compound gunk's up my Honing guide and then pollutes my stones. It gets into the roller. I am socking the Honing guide in turp's to get rid of it. I have tried it by hand however my edge is not as good.

I am thinking of getting a 12 000 Shapton Stone from http://japan-tool.com/ for a $100. That should be much finer micron then the honing compound and should cleaner allowing me to use my Honing guide. At the moment I am only able to get that supper fine edge with a honing compound. I am actually using a 1 micron jeweler compound.

Is 6000 grit a fine polish and my technique needs more work or is 8000 - 12000 more the polishing honing grit levels?

2- I have reasonable mastered the skill of sharpening high carbon steel my chisels shave arm hair and cut pine end grain. However with my HSS plane blades for my HNT planes I find it much harder to get that hair removing edge. It is a hit and miss affair and it is tacking allot of work to take a dull blade to razor sharp. Sometimes I get that razor edge and sometimes I do not. The why, however I do not know. I go through my stones, removing that scratches from the last grade, I even use a magnifying glass. Can anyone give me tips for getting more consistent edges on HSS blades with my water stones, with less effort?

A bad edge is hard to push and is hard work to use, and takes poor cuts on wood, leaving a poor surface. The blade edge also feels ruff and crude to the touch, under the magnification you can see the little serration. The finer edge that is razor sharp is a joy to use, and the edge under magnification looks polished.

3- Diamond plates - I recently discovered how much faster diamond plates remove metal, up to now I have been using wet and dry sandpaper. I wish to purchase some for flattening my chisels and irons. However I am a little lost between the choices. Can anyone tell me how the Economy Diamond Whetstones & Files (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7420) from Carbatec are? Or are the DMT® Diamond Whetstones (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7320) just better? If I wish to flattend blades and do fast metal removal which one of the DMT® DiaSharp™ Whetstones DMT® Diamond Whetstones (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7320) are the best. What is the difference between the DMT® DiaSharp™ Whetstones (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7320_7350), the DMT® 6" Whetstones (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7320_7340), and the DMT® 203mm Duosharp™ (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7320_19955), they seem to be just the same thing packaged a little differently mostly in the base and being double sided, it seems. Any advice is their ant real differnce between a DMT 3" DiaSharp - Coarse for $29.00 and DMT 203mm Duosharp - Fine & Coarse for $199.00?

4- Finally Chisel Blade angles - What angles do you use? I have some old high carbon steel pairing and dovetail chisels, I have had them at 30º - would a 35º give me a better edge retention without effecting my ability to pair easily? As I am working Australian Hardwoods. I already have my mortising chisels at 35º.

[Pat]

Thumb, Dunno the answers to the first 3, Chisel angles are like everything else, a matter of personal opinion . . . For Paring, 20 degrees as I only push the chisel, my standard angle for my bench chisels is 25 degrees and as you mentioned 35 degrees for Mortice (AKA Thumpers). Edge retention is a matter of what wood, end grain/long grain cutting, how heavy handed you are and angle.

[rsser]

Have heard old timers say that CS will take a better edge than HSS or stainless. Don't know why.

... have you tried 0.5 micron 3M micro-abrasive?

For lapping I use a dual sided DMT (blue and red grits).. Like you I found it quicker than stones. Do an ebay search ... there's a cheap supplier in the US.

[thumbsucker]

Have heard old timers say that CS will take a better edge than HSS or stainless. Don't know why.

I would say that it is easier with carbon blades however I have gotten a scary sharp edge on a HSS blade but I am unable to do so consistently and I think it takes much more work to so.

Since I did it once their must be a way of doing it again, I am hopping some here will help me do that.

Have not looked at the 3M micro-abrasive.

I am looking at the DMT on ebay - still need help deciding between all the types of DMT.

[rsser]

TS, if you've got bad chisel or plane iron backs you still need to go back to coarse W&D and work up a bit before you get to a dual grit diamond stone. They aren't the answer to everything though I agree they're fast in the limited range that they work.

[thumbsucker]

I spoke with sales at carbatec and it seems that all the varieties of the DMT diamond stones are the same basic thing. The only difference is the length and the width, I am told. The most popular model is the 8" x 3" x 3/8" as it is wide enough for any plane blade.

Carbatec recommends I get the 8" x 3" x 3/8" 203 mm x 76 mm x 10 mm" solid diasharp DMT diamond plate at $129.00. Will look on ebay for cheaper price.

I am told the cheaper diamond stones lose their diamonds over time where the DMT do not.

Would still like some help on the chisel blades, honing compound mess and HSS blades.

UPDATE: Emailed ebay supplier for prices on some of the DMT diamond plates, however you can also buy directly from DMT website: http://www.dmtsharp.com

[Toolin Around]

I spoke with sales at carbatec and it seems that all the varieties of the DMT diamond stones are the same basic thing. The only difference is the length and the width, I am told. The most popular model is the 8" x 3" x 3/8" as it is wide enough for any plane blade.

Carbatec recommends I get the 8" x 3" x 3/8" 203 mm x 76 mm x 10 mm" solid diasharp DMT diamond plate at $129.00. Will look on ebay for cheaper price.

I am told the cheaper diamond stones lose their diamonds over time where the DMT do not.

Would still like some help on the chisel blades, honing compound mess and HSS blades.

UPDATE: Emailed ebay supplier for prices on some of the DMT diamond plates, however you can also buy directly from DMT website: http://www.dmtsharp.com


Most companies say they're stones will last longer than anyone elses. I think the only way a company can set their diamond stones apart from others is by stating they use monocrystalline as opposed to polycrystalline diamond dust. Most don't say what they're using which is an obvious indication they're using the much weaker polycrystalline dust.

[thumbsucker]

can set their diamond stones apart from others is by stating they use monocrystalline as opposed to polycrystalline diamond dust.

It seems that DMT uses monocrystalline (http://www.dmtsharp.com/general/whydiamond.htm)

[derekcohen]

TS

Couldn't you ask just a few more questions? :oo: I think that you have managed to cover ever possibility, and then some. :U SO I will just make a few observations.

Rule #1: Sharpen as much as you need. Not everything needs to be sharpened the same. Finish work more so than rough work.

Rule #2: I prefer to think of "sharpening" as the process of creating a smooth surface on the bevel edge. The smoother the sharper. The smoother the longer lasting the edge - an edge honed with a coarse nedium will have longer serrations. These will break off faster than an edge with finer serrations.

Rule #3: the edge is only as smooth as the coarsest side of the bevel. The bevel has two sides - the face and the back. Both must be honed to the same degree.

Rule #4: It takes less time and less effort to hone a microbevel than a full bevel face. A microbevel may be honed on a flat bevel or on a hollow ground bevel. As a result, with a microbevel you can use fewer grits to span the gap between 1200 and 6000. In other words, you can forgo the 4000.

Rule #5: You will NEVER get anything sharp without first raising a wire edge on the primary bevel. I suspect that the harder HSS may cause you to halt grinding the primary bevel prematurely.

OK, Sharpening 101 over.

I have two waterstone systems - Kings 800, 1200 and 8000; and Professional Shaptons 1000, 5000, 8000 and 12000. The King 8000 and the Shapton 8000 will get the edge about the same smoothness. The advantage of the Shapton is that it requires less water (i.e. is less messy) and is a harder stone (i.e. requires considerably less flattening betweeb blades. In addition, the harder Shapton offers more feedback, which I like.

You can get a 6000 King to "act" like a 8000 by letting the paste dry out and hone on that. The dry paste continues to break down and this is what provides the final finish.

A Shapton 12000/15000 waterstone (actually they are ceramic) has a micron rating of about .9 - this is still not as smooth as the Veritas green rouge (crayon), which has a micron rating of .5 At this time I cannot comment on the 12K Shapton as it is new. Still, I often finish with green rouge on a hard horsebutt leather strop.

I do have a couple of 10" DMT diamond stones - coarse/extra coarse - but these are used to flatten the Shaptons. I do use them, along with a fine 6" Ezy-lap, for tiny blades, since these will tear up a waterstone. Otherwise I am weary of using diamond stones. It is not too difficult to grind the diamonds off the steel if you use too much pressure. Having said that, my Ezy-lap is at least 10 years old and still cutting (although it is hard to feel anything with a finger).

For reference, a "fine" diamond stone is 25 microns, an "extra fine" is 9 microns. A 6000 King stone is 2 microns. Do the maths.

Grinding HSS blades is best done on a powered grinder. You can grind them until red hot without softening the steel (unlike A2 and O1). I would hollow grind on a high speed grinder right up to the edge. REmember, the microbevel only needs to be about 1mm wide, and you will get this from a 800 King ---- OOOO!!!!! YOU DON"T HAVE ONE!!!!! Get one! You will find that the primary bevel is easy to grind with this than a 1200. Then you will be more likely to hone a wire edge. After the 800, use the 1200 and then the 6000. Finish with green rouge.

I would say that you are using tooooo much rouge. Just scribble a little on top of some MDF. Pull the guide backwards over it.

Rule of thumb for grinding angles - the lower the angle, the greater the "penetration". But so is durability of the edge going to be lower. So a 20 degree angle is used on paring chisels, 25-30 degrees for bench chisels, 35 degrees for mortice chisels. I use all these angles - horses for courses.

Ask question and I and others will answer as best as we can.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[thumbsucker]

Derek the man I was waiting for.

I think the not turning on a bur on the HSS blades may be the cause of my inconsistent results. This is why I want a diamond stone with a course and medium grit to turn the burr faster. I just find the stones I have are to much work.

I think I am in the market for some coarser diamond stone.

I will try the honing compound again.

Thanks for the info on the Shapton and the 0.9 micron. :(( Saved me some $$.

The next step up is the 15,000 grit stone it would be way beyond 0.05 micron.

Another Question:

Suppose I have a dull blade. I move through the grits 800 to the 8000 and then on to the green honing compound, it is sharp and all it good.

Question 1 - my blade has a secondary bevel and it goes blunt. Do I start from the beginning again at 800 and move back up to the honing compound (assuming the edge is intact with no major chips or dents)? Or do I start higher grit working on the secondary bevel, if so, where would I start 1200 +/-.

Question 2 - at what stage (800 to the 8000) should I stop honing the primary bevel if I will be adding a secondary bevel? Should I go all the way on the primary bevel?

Update: got a piece of pine ply and made a small bench hook from it, cleaned up my green honing compound it attracts dirt like a magnet and gave it a thin run on the bench hook. With a cleaned up honing guide I was in about two minutes get a much smoother less catchy edge on my HSS blade, enough to easy remove hair. Will try more tomorrow when I have time.

[Toolin Around]

It seems that DMT uses monocrystalline (http://www.dmtsharp.com/general/whydiamond.htm)


I'd say DMT would be a good bet then :2tsup:

[derekcohen]

TS

The Shapton equivalent of the .5 micron green rouge is a 30000 stone!

When I rehone a worn edge, since this is a microbevel, I usually begin with the 1200. Usually this is enough to reform the primary bevel, then hone with the 6000/8000.

I return to the 800 when the bevel has a chip and more steel needs to be removed. Or when the microbevel has widened appreciably so that there is more steel to remove than is comfortable with the 1200.

There is no doubt that HSS can be a bear to hone. Even A2 is harder than O1 or HCS. Older mediums, such as oil stones, do not work as well.

What you might consider - as a cheap alternative to DMT diamond stones (mine cost locally about $300 - but I bought them in the States via the internet) - is diamond paste. I have used this very successfully as well. Get 45 micron, 10 and 1 micron. Use green rouge after. I have oil-based pastes and rub a pea size onto and into a piece of scrap hardwood. This stuff is fantastic! Check out eBay (USA) for it. $15 will get you enough to last a few years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[sumu]

Hello,

I have read those sharpening threads here, and it is always so fun to see how woodworkers around the world are so intensively passionate over this topic :). It is universal, truly. I guess, as a woodworker, I am also entitled to take sides here :D.

I used to hang around in the Scary Sharp camp, but lately I have found more comfortable to use DMT diamond whetstones. I bought two of them, those 6 inchers, coarse and fine. They are more than adequate to make preliminary edge before polishing.

For chisels and plane irons, I use honing guide. Knives (or puukko's as they are called here) I sharpen freehand.

For rough bevel shaping, if I had not that variable speed belt sander with wet grinding option, I would probably buy extra coarse DMT stone.

"Wet grinding" with belt sander means here using a plastic handheld water spray pump bottle, constant small puffs on the sanding belt vanishing under the grinded bevel.

On the running sanding belt, I use just the same kind of cheap honing guides as with DMT stones. Like this here: http://www.diefenbacher.com/_borders/sharpe10.gif I bought several of those from local hardware store, I think I got 3 or 4 with that price. The roller does not suffer very much on sanding belt, just add a bit oil on the axle.

Anyway, for polishing I have a bench grinder equipped with two hard felt wheels, dia 150mm at 2950 rpm. I use polishing compounds made by this Finnish company (not affiliated except as a customer): http://www.snt-group.net/norpol/english/vahat.htm

These are just types of high quality rouge and green compounds. Chromium oxide green compound has particle size range near 0,5 microns. The wax binder works here as PCM material, conserving thermal energy while melting under frictional forces of polishing event. When it cools down in airflow, it solidifies and releases the heat. The same thing holds, you do not need to apply very much of the polishing compound, and therefore only a couple of seconds for a pass at a time will do the trick.

The another fact is that if edge is very slightly pushed against the spinning felt wheel, there happens microbevel formation by nature. The pushing angle and force defines what will be the microbevel angle and shape. There may also happen burr formation, depends greatly on edge material.

There is finer polishing particles available. 0,3 micron aluminium oxide is common stuff (like here: http://www.logitech.uk.com/Productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=2&idproduct=15 , also smaller particles are available. They are usually used for scientific studies or for example for optical fiber data transfer installations, but I think anybody may buy them as well.

I have found that sometimes and with certain edges, when the "first burr" appears, I should not remove it too early. I think if I remove it after DMT fine stone, it is possible that I will "bend" the burr neck so that it kinda cracks off, and there is "false edge", although the actual edge is something like a fracture plane. I have found this to happen often with hard HSS edges, where honing makes edge sometimes sharp, sometimes not at all sharp although I did everything like usually.

I have read, that in different types of HSS steels, there happens formation of special carbides, and if those required multiple temper stages are not done properly and therefore there is that residual austenite, this kind of phenomen is typical. HSS is then hard but too fragile, and early burr removal may undergo too brittle fracture, resulting that kind of false edge.

I have passed this "problem" by removing the burr at polishing wheel. I polish the bevel side with a bit coarser polishing medium until there is no significant burr any more. Then it seems to work.

Ok, that was my contribution to evergreencompounding sharpening topics :).

sumu

[thumbsucker]

There is finer polishing particles available. 0,3 micron aluminum oxide is common stuff (like here: http://www.logitech.uk.com/Productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=2&idproduct=15 , also smaller particles are available. They are usually used for scientific studies or for example for optical fiber data transfer installations, but I think anybody may buy them as well.

Sumu I have bought aluminum oxide used by diamond polishers it is at 0.01 micron and will and leave a perfect finish. I blended it with candle wax however it was very hard to work initially however once the paraffin wax was softened I was able to an edge that was much finer then the Veritas honing compound. However I need help with the wax base I was going to try bees wax next time. Something that works like the green stuff.

Any ideas what the wax / crayon is?

Interesting idea about removing the burr to soon. Will try.

[sumu]

I would think the track is still right, candle manufacturing business might be a good source for binder wax.

Maybe this one, or similar?: http://www.peakcandle.com/products/Comfort-Blend-(single-pour)-IGI-4627-25-lbs__PW1018.aspx (http://www.peakcandle.com/products/Comfort-Blend-%28single-pour%29-IGI-4627-25-lbs__PW1018.aspx)

It's is said to be soft and sticky paraffin based wax for container candles. It's congealing point seems to be quite low, so don't leave it in sun :D.

Honestly, I can't tell you the right stuff by name, but it's melt viscosity and solid state softness should be low. What might be the preferred softening temperature region, I'd say way under tempering temperature of hardened carbon steel. For wax, it would mean maybe something like under 100 Celcius degrees, I would say. That about 50 degrees does not sound bad, it might be good temperature to apply it on felt wheel by utilizing frictional heat.

Also the best fill rate is unknown to me. Anything between 10-50% by volume, can't say for sure.

sumu

[rsser]

Went chasing Derek's suggestion of diamond paste: ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Five-5-gram-syringes-diamond-compound-polishing-paste_W0QQitemZ120525447193QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0fe06019#ht_738wt_1161)