Advice on sourcing 1" unhandled skew?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

OK, so I've sat down, worked out the budget, had the "not more tools" argument and am raring to go ahead and replace the 1" skew I broke (in another thread.)

What I'm after now is a bit of feedback on the better brands of 1" unhandled skew. I'm looking for one made from rectangular stock, (I already have an oval 1" skew, which doesn't get much use :rolleyes:) but preferably with the heel's edges milled. It doesn't really matter of the edges aren't milled... I can always clean 'em up before I start using it, but I'd rather avoid the effort.

Now, I like P&N and Hamlet for gouges, however I'm not a great fan of their scrapers. I've never had a skew of either brand, but I see Jim Carroll carries both and has good prices on the 24x8 & 30x8 P&N skews. I'm not sure if they have rolled edges though? Anyone know?

I really don't like the steel that's going into the new Sorby tools (and from memory, they've moved into mainly ovalled skews anyway) so I'm sorta thinking Henry Taylor. But, again, I don't think they come with a rolled edge?

I know I could go the path of sourcing raw HSS stock and making my own, but frankly for something as simple as a skew I'd rather just buy it from day one. :D

Suggestions? Advice?

[OGYT]

I know I could go the path of sourcing raw HSS stock and making my own, but frankly for something as simple as a skew I'd rather just buy it from day one. :D
Suggestions? Advice?
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com Doug Thompson's website. I bought 2 of his new gouges. His tools are all the hi-tech Cryo stuff. But they are least expensive of any I've ever seen.
His Skews are worthy of your name. :D

[Taffsmania]

Try http://www.mcjing.com.au/woodworking/index.htm
Good prices and heavy steel.
Keith

[R.B.]

Gday Skew.

I have a few Skews all are fine but the big P&N is the only one that will keep an edge on the harder aussie woods.

Not sure if you can get them un-handled.

Nice bit of bullet dodging in'tother thread btw!

[Christopha]

An unhandled 24x8 from Jim Carroll (JC to youse lot!) will do all you want. A great tool, radiused bottom edge, square topp make for good control and less drag on the tool rest. Enjoy!

[Alastair]

Hi Skew,

I have had the 1" P&N for a number of years, and am very happy with it. Holds an edge well, and is thicker than most, so very solid and forgiving.

It is square section, which I also prefer, but has the short point edge rounded over, to facilitate rolling beads. While this gives a very smooth action, it is my one dislike, as with the way I hold the tool, and my technique when rolling beads, I tend to get the skin of the edge of my left hand nipped against the toolrest when rolling to the left. That might also just be me!!

Regarding unhandled, JC and several others have them. Locally for me, H&F carry them, but only handled, but their handled price is the same as the best unhandled price I have seen. Might be the same elsewhere.

My other favourite is a 7/16" square skew, home made from HSS blank from McJing.

regards

[Cliff Rogers]

I like Henry Taylor steel the best, go & see Len at The Woodsmith (http://www.thewoodsmith.com.au/thewoodsmith/contact.htm).

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Thanks fellas.

So, P&N have the rolled edge? OK, it looks like it's a toss-up between P&N and Henry Taylors. Decisons, decisions. :think:

I think I'll go for a walk into Len's this coming Friday and see what he has in stock. That way I can feed the wood addiction, too. :wink: If he only has the Sorby skews, Jim will get an e-order at lightning speed...

[PAH1]

I prefer the square section skews, or at least the P&N one that has a flat long point because they have much greater stability when cutting grooves. The other advantage is that the fulcrum is contant when rolling a bead, rather than rolling accross the surface of the rest. I have a rolled edge hamlet that is starting to get less and less use, a 1" P&N has replaced its use and I just bought an unhandled McJing 3/4 one at the woodshow.

[rsser]

As per the turnfest discussion which you may have missed Skew ... there was a consensus (ie. two of us agreed!) that unhandled P&N stuff was among the best value on the market.

Will need sharpening more often than better M2 steels like Henry Taylor but money is time. And the HT steel = serious time ;-}

Let us know how you jump ... er, not a good choice of metaphor at this time is it?

[Added: McJing steel seems to vary in quality. And yes, from the last P&N dogalogue I saw the shaft edges are arrised. Also note that Cliffy managed to get a discount on his HT bowl gouge purchase from Len Smith so you can quote a precedent.]

[Christopha]

Why would you buy bloody imported stuff like Henry Taylor, Sorby etc when good AUSSIE tools like P&N are available?

[Simomatra]

I have Henry Taylor, Hamlet and McJing and go with Cliff the Taylor is by far the best and holds the edge with the hard timbers

[rsser]

Christopha, where do you reckon P&N source their steel?

Austria.

.. yeah, let's buy local from local where it makes sense.

And that's getting on to purchase criteria, good info and independent test data. (All a bit in short supply in 'what should I buy?' threads as a general observation. This one seems to me to score well on the first two so far.)

[R.B.]

for what its worth.. I don't have a ht skew but I do have a couple of scrapers and a gouge.. not a look in on hard woods compared to the equivalents in P&N. I pull the ht's out for softer or green woods only beautiful tools in their place.. The poms just dont have the nasty @rse timbers that we do so their steel is not intended for it.

does anyone else think a large Skew imported from aus bearing a "Skew ChiDAMN!" stamp would sell like hotcakes? maybe in a snake skin case? you should look into it.

"thats not a skew.. THIS IS A SK......" righto I'll stop now.

[jchappo]

I agree with Taffsmania -- try McJing!
I have both the 3/4 and the 1 inch - very solid piece of steel which holds a fine edge.

[Cliff Rogers]

... I don't have a ht skew but I do have a couple of scrapers and a gouge.. not a look in on hard woods compared to the equivalents in P&N. ....
There is where I differ, I reckon the HT HS1 Superflute is miles better than the P&N equivalent & I tried them both on the same great big lump of dead tree that DJ dragged along to the July turnout at Ern's place.

The HT & the P&N were both sharpened on the same grinder to the same shape & I preffered to use the HT even without a handle.

[rsser]

does anyone else think a large Skew imported from aus bearing a "Skew ChiDAMN!" stamp would sell like hotcakes? maybe in a snake skin case? you should look into it.

"thats not a skew.. THIS IS A SK......" righto I'll stop now.

Nice one.

Or maybe 'you make 'em, I'll break 'em' :U

[powderpost]

I prefer the P&N 1 1/4" skew chisel, has a rolled edge too. Have been using a Hamlet Excaliber ASP 2060 skew now for about two years. It is an excellent tool, rolled edges and holds an edge well, but is a tad expensive.
Jim

[R.B.]

Paid Ern:D



There is where I differ, I reckon the HT HS1 Superflute is miles better than the P&N equivalent

I reckon we might be dealing with different Henry taylor products.. HS1?? is this different to the gumboot range?

hold that... I'll get off my bum and have a google shall I

[R.B.]

Nope.. thems the ones, strange.. I did score my P&N's second hand and have no idea of when hey were made, maybe we're dealing with different ilks.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The poms just dont have the nasty @rse timbers that we do so their steel is not intended for it.

You've got that right. For the softer woods I love their Ashley Isles tools, but they just aren't worth a damn on Aussie woods. :(

Maybe I should buy both - a 1" Henry Taylor and an 18x6mm P&N? I wonder if I can persuade my smaller chaiwanese skew into breaking tomorrow? Hmmm... :innocent:

[Alastair]

There is an element of horses for courses here.

There are 2 ranges of HT, one with harder steel, (and significantly higher price).

Pretty cuts no mustard. On the looks front, my only issue with P&N is the unpolished finish, which leaves my hands stained black when turning wet or tannin rich timbers.

Cliff is spot on with flute shape. With the P&N bowl gouges, the U-flute makes sharpening with anything except a straight across grind a challenge. That said, with care, and suitable jig, it can be done, and I have used with success for a while. While I have no direct experience with the Superflute, watching it being sharpened demonstrated that achieving an "Irish" grind was more natural than with the P&N.

Given that, their detail gouge is far superior than any of the "milled roundbar" type I have tried, and their skews and roughing gouges are the ducks' n*ts.

regards

[rsser]

As far as I can see with my set, the P&N Supa gouges have a more open U (did Mike call this Catenary?) than the std bowl gouges.

I keep my Supa gouge for rough and long reach work. Yep Alastair, it is easily ground 'straight' around but can be put in a fingernail jig to get kindof swept back wings.

The black paint can be taken off with a soft abrasive wheel btw. Brass wire wheel would prob. work too.

[Christopha]

Christopha, where do you reckon P&N source their steel?

Austria.

.. yeah, let's buy local from local where it makes sense.

And that's getting on to purchase criteria, good info and independent test data. (All a bit in short supply in 'what should I buy?' threads as a general observation. This one seems to me to score well on the first two so far.)
They may source their steel overseas, but only in the "raw" form I believe. The actual manufacture of P&N turning tools is AUSTRALIAN. The design of P&N tools is AUSTRALIAN. I have used many different brands of turning tools and the brand I use mostly (not exclusively!) are P&N. I have always found their skews to be superior to all others I have tried, their detail and Supa gouges are beaut and for mine are better than all others... their roughing gouges are so-so but I usually rough most work up to 4" diam with a skew anyway. Anyway, that's mt two bobs worth. In the end it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. :2tsup:

[Cliff Rogers]

Geeze Chris... you feeling OK???? :oo:

You actually stated your case instead of just telling everybody they were a pack of dills. :D

[Christopha]

Geeze Chris... you feeling OK???? :oo:

You actually stated your case instead of just telling everybody they were a pack of dills. :D
Cliff, you are a bluddy dill and so is anyone who says otherwise!!! :wink:

[Cliff Rogers]

Thank you... I'll take that as a complement. :p

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Let us know how you jump ... er, not a good choice of metaphor at this time is it?

I've settled for placing an order for an unhandled 24x8 P&N with Jim Carroll, or a 30x8 if he has no 24s in stock.

Not because of any consideration such as steel quality or "ASussie made" but for a more practical reason... I didn't manage to make it to the Woodsmith. :-

Shame, I think I'd prefer the HT (I've borrowed one from Rodent for the meantime :D) but such is life. :shrug:

[mick61]

G`day what`s an IRISH grind?
Mick:D

[rsser]

... rubbing hips during the jig of course ;-}

Or else from memory there's a page of grind shapes somewhere on WoodCentral website.

[Alastair]

G`day what`s an IRISH grind?
Mick:D

Have a look here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

[scooter]

Mick, an Irish grind is another name for a "long" or "swept back" grind on a bowl gouge, where the wings of the gouge are ground back, as opposed to a traditional shape of grinding the bowl gouge straight across, or an intermediate grind somewhere between the two.

[mick61]

THANKS
Mick:D

[rsser]

Sean, darn it if you're not taking the fun out of this thread.

The guy should know what grinding hips mean (and can lead to ... woohoo!).

That said, a thousand flowers blossom when it comes to bowl gouge grind names.

Seems many o/s users term a straight grind one that has a 45 degree bevel with the cutting edges of the 'wings' at 90 degrees to the shaft.

I'm not sure how else you could get this except with a U flute and the grinder platform in an interesting position.

If you took a Henry Taylor superflute (like the half inch job Sean's just wisely invested in) and ground it just by rotating the shaft you get a very usable bevel that I'd call 'straight across grind'.

If you swung the handle while rotating it you get ground back wings.

This gives you a longer and finer wing which is good for fine straight cutting across a face (with a pull cut with the flute facing upwards). But with higher density woods that fine edge doesn't last too long [added: depending on the flute profile of course].

Horses for courses.

[scooter]

Sean, darn it if you're not taking the fun out of this thread.

The guy should know what grinding hips mean (and can lead to ... woohoo!).

Yeah, I know, thought mick might like a conventional answer at some point :wink::D


Like the half inch job Sean's just wisely invested in

Just thinking about at this point, Ern, maybe at the wood show...

[rsser]

Wouldn't hold my breath about HT discounts at the Show Sean.

Best bet would be to front TheWoodsmith and say you want the discount Cliffy got on his 5/8 ;-}

[rsser]

Or since you're a DIY guy, check out the Woodcut gouge tips at Jim's site.

Very nice profiles.

He'll have them at the show; just knock up a handle and shaft.

Gra's got one; ditto Rodent.
[Edit: not Gra sorry, GJ.]

[scooter]

Thanks for the ideas, Ern :)

[Cliff Rogers]

...If you took a Henry Taylor superflute ... and ground it .... swung the handle while rotating it you get ground back wings....
That is my favourite, looks like this (http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/images/dp_38gouge.jpg). :2tsup:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

If you took a Henry Taylor superflute (like the half inch job Sean's just wisely invested in) and ground it just by rotating the shaft you get a very usable bevel that I'd call 'straight across grind'.

If you swung the handle while rotating it you get ground back wings.

So... what do you call it if you don't swing the handle, but move the chisel tip "up the wheel" for the sides and "down the wheel" for the valley? :innocent:

[rsser]

Is there a match on the woodcentral site for the shape that results Skew?

[Cliff Rogers]

The Heligrind Jig would do that grind if I remember correctly.

[Alastair]

That is my favourite, looks like this (http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/images/dp_38gouge.jpg). :2tsup:

Hi Cliff,

I have my P&N very similar to that. Perhaps a tad less extreme. Use the left wing reverse cutting with handle down for rapid removal of stock from outside. (Or 1/2" detail gouge handle down--- open flute doesn't clog as much)

Inside hollowing, start with flute up, slicing cut using lh wing across the endgrain, then roll to right across the transition, to make use of the steeper bevel at the toe, when going across the bottom.

regards

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Is there a match on the woodcentral site for the shape that results Skew?

Not an exact one, no - this is a freehand grind which always leaves the grind marks aligned to the tool axis, so it's easy to pick.

Some of the backswept wing profiles on woodcentral are very similar but the grind marks show they've all been "handle swung" on the grinder. Actually, it looks like they've all been jig ground to me.

The reason I ask is I saw it demo'd on a video (but I forget where'n'when I saw it :() and the bloke made it look oh so easy. Admittedly all experienced freehanders manage to do that :rolleyes: but the way he showed looked to give more repeatable results than normal, so I've been meaning to try it out. But first I need to rough grind the profile before I start and I'd like to find a pic of one to work from...

[scooter]

I saw a clip of this on the net somewhere, Skew; also saw a picture of the underside of the gouge, it obviously still resulted in a fingernail grind, but the "bottom edge" of the bevel followed a different line than the "roll & swing" ground gouge.

Edit: here (http://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/images/Video/Spindle%20Gouge%20Fingernail%20Grind%20on%20Grinder%20Freehand.AVI)'s the vid, (note: 2.3 Mb AVI)

[rsser]

Any tips on how to play that one Sean?

I'm using VLAN (edit: nope, VLC it is) which copes with most formats; this one it appears to play but no audio and no video ..so much for appearances ;-}

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I saw a clip of this on the net somewhere, Skew; also saw a picture of the underside of the gouge, it obviously still resulted in a fingernail grind, but the "bottom edge" of the bevel followed a different line than the "roll & swing" ground gouge.

That's the one, Sean! :2tsup: You're right about the bevel. That one looks like it's more a detail gouge, the difference in the bevel is more noticeable in a bowl gouge.


Any tips on how to play that one Sean?

I've played it with several players (inc Win Media Player) and they all work except... I've come to the conclusion that there's no audio stream with that particular file. :shrug:

Edit: I just loaded it into Adobe Premier and it says there is definitely no audio stream.

[scooter]

Ern, it plays on Win Media Player 11 and Media Player Classic that I have on my 'puter, but not on VLC media player.

Ran the Gspot & AVIcodec thingos but they say unknown video codec so they're a lot of help.

Dunno, Ern, maybe suss that (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=55654&highlight=codec)thread that came up in the last couple of weeks about playing dvds on the computer; or something in this (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/search.php?searchid=1686694)search mebbe.

Yep, Skew, no sound on this clip.


Cheers...................Sean

[rsser]

Thanks Sean.