Finshing issues

[back yarder]

Hi all,
i have finished off the table top (Red Gum) and an not fully happy with the finsih
I used organoil and then the EEE polish wax
Dry sand 80 120 180 240 320 400 then wet sand with oil + 400 600 1500 all on ROS
then EEE buffed with festool felt then lambs wool
the finsih is not bad but not as deep as I thought it would be.
have I missed something?
your thoughts would be great.

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Back Yarder,

You'll need to put one more finish on to really complete it. This is because EEE is not a finish.

The last step is a wax finish eg UBeaut's Traditional Wax.

You'll find that the EEE finish by itself will dull after a while, whereas the Trad Wax will keep the shine better.

Cheers
Wendy

[rsser]

Yep. And with DO at least, burnishing oil too, put on a couple of generous wash coats, wiping & allowing to dry after each, before wet sanding.

[back yarder]

can i go over the top of the eee with more oil or do i need to just go with the finishing wax

[rsser]

The EEE will have left wax on the surface which likely will resist further oil penetration.

I think this is one for Neil, the guru.

Failing that, Ruffly's right. A coat and buff with Trad Wax will give you a sheen and some more protection. D*mn good stuff.

[astrid]

how many coats of oil did you use and what is organoil
I havent used redgum but the usual way to finish timber is sand raw timber, seal with single coat of shellac, buff back with 400 grit, apply 2-3 coats of oil lightly buffing between coat and let each coat dry at least 24 hrs more in cold weather or if useing a natural oil.
then apply thin coat wax, let dry and buff off

hope this helps
astrid

[rsser]

Astrid, Organoil is an Oz maker of timber finishes ... with an 'organic' or 'natural' selling point.

They have a new Danish Oil product (favorably reviewed in a recent AWR) which I'm now trying out on my woodturnings.

I've used their Burnishing Oil in the past, got good results with wet sanding but didn't like the way it raised the grain after a couple of weeks.

(Like all finishing products, its important to follow their instructions carefully).

IMHO if you go for an oil finish, all other things equal, you start with a soaking wash or two and go from there.

[back yarder]

once dry sanding was finished with 400 (this was also wet down between grit changes with damp rag and moistened to stand up the fibres, then dried and then sanded before moving up to next grade).
1 coat of oil sit for 3 hours and then a 2nd coat and wait 15 mins and then start with the ROS while still wet
slurry is worked up and into the grains then wipped down and onto the next grid paper then allowed to dry for 24 hours then on with the EEE wax.
thats whats on the can.

[rsser]

Goodo.

Well give her a waxing and a buff and she how she comes up.

[rsser]

PS ... those are longish waits given the DO I'm used to. You may have some build up. Try a thorough rub down with 0000 steel wool to remove any deposits and then do the wax thing.

[LGS]

Hi All,

Backyarder, what Organoil was it? Hard Burnishing or Interior finish? In my experience, neither will give you a deeper colour, no matter how many coats you use. And after about 14 days it will look dull. A quick run over with 1500g or higher and then EEE and then Trad wax will give you a lustre but no more depth in the colour. As Wendy says, you need to finish with the wax, but the colour and finish should be fairly apparent before you apply the EEE cream.
I have found Danish oil dulls the finisha nd actually removes some apparent grain during processing. I have the proof for this and witnesses as well. I therefore don't use this. Perhaps if you remove the EEE by using a high grit and then refinish. If you want depth and clarity as well as a darker colour, then use either Wattyl Scandinavian oil or Feast and Watson China wood oil. You will get a high finish with the Wattyl and a softer finish with the Feast Watson.
IMHO, the gap from 600 1500 is too large. I would suggest using at least an 800g and probably a 1200g as well. In finishing what you get out is directly proportional to the work you put in. Follow the method suggested by Lignum and you will get what you're after.
Incidentally, I don't see any real value is sander/sealing Red Gum as it's just such a dense timber.

Regards,

Rob

[back yarder]

hard burnishing oil
followed the intructions on the can
might try the Busy Bee wax i have at home with some 0000 steel wool then a hand buff
the satin shine is nice with the light on it but the depth and the colour is a bit lighter than I was expecting

[Cruzi]

Busy Bee wax has too much beeswax in it, it never really cures, especially in warmer areas, the Ubueat Trad Wax or Feast Watson Pure Carunba Wax are better options

[back yarder]

bought some organoil wax polish and some gilly stephens wax with carunba mix if this stuff doesn't produce the desired look I might try some of that wipe on poly
cheers

[ubeaut]

Boy talk about making a rod for your back.

For starters you should probably have left the HB oil for at least a couple of weeks before applying anything. All you are doing is stopping it from curing properly. By applying more and more wax it won't get a lot better and no way will you ever get poly to stick to it.


allowed to dry for 24 hours then on with the EEE wax.
thats whats on the can.

Sorry, but what can is that on? Not any that I know of. Certainly not ours and I'd bet my life it ain't on the Organoil can.

Could be wrong but if it is it's definitely news to me. The closest thing to anything that might work will be the Gilly Stevens Carnauba wax. You're wasting you time with anything else unless it's our Traditional Wax.

Cheers - Neil

[back yarder]

this is what I followed off their web site and on the can!
am I reading it wrong?

Natural Plant Oils penetrate deep into timbers. Light also travels with the oils along the timber fibres into the wood, enhancing all the colour, glow and character of the structure. When the light reflects back it will however reveal any imperfections in the surface sanding. By using Wet on Wet friction sanding technique you will be able to minimise sanding imperfections.

Step 1:
Fine sand timbers to minimum 400 grit (powered disc) or hand sand to 600 grit WET & DRY paper. Sand until timber begins to show a slight lustre. Retain the sawdust in the last paper used - do not dust off as it will be used as a grain filler in the next process.

Step 2:
Apply first coat of Oil to all surfaces of the project including the underside and or rearside allowing the oil time to soak well into the timber; 2 – 3 hours later ( not overnight ) apply a light second coat after first application to the surfaces to be burnished also allowing a short time for oil to be absorbed. Wipe off excess or pooling oil leaving a moist surface , then begin to massage or burnish the oil into the timber surface with the last paper used in Step 1. The Oil & sawdust will form a slurry & should be worked to fill the pore structure of the timber, if needing more slurry to close the pores of the timber, add oil only to the surface of the paper being used. Should you have an excess of slurry clean the face of the paper with an Oil dampened cloth making sure not to add Oil to the timber surface. By now you should have achieved a satin finish across the surface. Wipe excess slurry from timber surface with clean dry cloth or paper towel before moving to Step 3. NB Put the lid back on the can to resist the temptation of adding more oil to the timber.

Step 3:
To obtain a higher lustre than a satin finish, carry on sanding (manual or power) using 1200 grit wet and dry paper. Two to three sandings with 1200 grit paper may be necessary to bring up the desired finish. Paper face should at all times remain clean and free from excess slurry Should paper face be oily, wipe timber surface with paper towel or serviette and change to a new paper. Note: For cabinetry finish it is highly recommended to continue burnishing at 1500, 2000 grit wet and dry paper—guaranteed to put a “gleam” in the finish.

Step 4:
To achieve the “ultimate” with an oil finish it is necessary to leave for 24 to 48 hours and then power buff with lambswool or lint free cloth.
NOTE: Project should remain to cure in a well ventilated area free of condensation and moisture. Benchtops and table tops should not be exposed to water or heat for at least 3 - 4 days. To avoid rust marking do not leave "wet" tin cans on benchtops overnight.

[LGS]

Hi Backyarder,
The instructions on the can are correct. However, its been my experience with hard burnishing oil that you will not realise a feeling of depth or "warmth" by following the instructions. I use hard burnishing oil for timber that will be exposed to foodstuffs, but much prefer the Wattyl Scandinavian Oil or Feast Watson China Wood Oil for furniture and other pieces. To demonstrate the differences in oil and also in sanding regimen, I have attached the following.
Pic #1. Coffee table in Red Gum. Prepared and sanded as per the Organoil hard burnishing oil, including allowing 48hrs before final Lambswool buff. After 2 wweeks the finish was drab. I then used EEE and Trad wax to try and rectify the situation with limited success.
Pic #2. Red Gum box, in Red Gum from the same batch as the table. This box was oiled with Scandinavian oil, using the method Lignum suggested (which is actually mine) then finished with EEE cream and Trad Wax.
Pic #3. This shows a comparison of tewo Blackwood boxes made from the same board. The one with the bull nose lid received the Scandinavian oil, but was sanded using 100,120,150,240 600 1200g only.
The box with the square lid received the full treatment.
My point is that the correct oil, used with the correct sanding regimen can give you what you want, but some experimentation can often yeild different results.
I'd certainly agree with people who have steered you away from Beeswax finishes as these change consistency easily with ambient temperature and are diffcult to clean. UBeaut Trad wax makes an enormous difference to the perceived depth of the finish and is dust "repellant", a feature my wife just adores.

Regards,

Rob

[back yarder]

Sorry to be a pain but I am new to all this
where can I get the 2000 - 4000 ROS papers from the carbatec here only seems to go to 1500 nothing close in bunnyies
these platin pads who stocks them
If I was to follow the method outlined in the scandanavian oil finish will i need to sand back to raw finish again

[LGS]

Hi Backyarder,

The Platin 2 pads are from Festool, so I'd contact them for your nearest stockist in Sydney. If they are close, try VEK tools. My apologies for not making that clear in my previous posts.

Yes you would need to strip the table back, which shouldn't be too much of a chore, but the satisfaction you'll get from seeing the richness of the Red gum shine will probably be well worth it.
Remember, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. This forum is here to help wherever possible. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.:):)

Good luck and Regards,

Rob

[back yarder]

thanks again
will the pads only go on festool, I use a bosch 400 ROS (all I can afford)
the festool H&L paper fit it
what grit would you recommend to get back to timber 180?
I need to get more supplies today for the weekend in the shed again
cheers

[LGS]

Hi BY,
If the festool pads fit, the Platins will also.
Sanding back will depend on when you reach clean timber. You may have to go to 100, but with red gum, it's possible that 180 will work, especially if the Organoil hasn't been on too long or reached complete saturation.

Regards,

Rob

[back yarder]

cheers Rob
it's off to the shops again and back into the shed fro the weekend
thanks for your help.

[MacS]

Back Yard,

Don't use the most aggessive sandpaper, it is better to take a little longer sanding then puting deep scratches into the timber, only to have to spend the time sanding them out.

Good Luck

MacS

[ubeaut]

allowed to dry for 24 hours then on with the EEE wax. thats whats on the can.

Maybe I'm going blind but nowhere in those instructions you've reproduced does it say to use EEE-Ultra Shine over the Hard Burnishing Oil.

You've copied instructions word for word. But it would appear you neglected to actually read them, because according to your description above you didn't follow them exactly as it said.

IF you follow the instructions to the letter, you'll get a really good finish, if you don't then the finish won't be up to scratch. It's that simple.

Organoil spent many months testing and perfecting the application techniques for their products as do most manufacturers. They give you some pretty precise directions, as you have indicated by reproducing them here, yet you as a novice seem to think you know better so you sort of follow those instructions. Then you try to fix up what shouldn't have needed fixing if done as instructed. But instead of fixing it you are adding to the problems and saying it was part of the instructions.

If you're going to try and sand it back to raw timber, you'd best make sure you buy a whole lot of sand paper because it's going to clog like crazy. Organoil is one of the deeper penetrating oils so it will take a fair amount of sanding out. Would be much better to wash off the wax with a little mineral turps, and clean dry rag then do the final step again with the Organoil only this time start with 800 grit then 1200 grit as you should have done in the first place. As it says in the instructions you may need to use the 1200 up to 3 times. Finish off with 1500 then if you can get it 2000.Leave it to cure for a week then if it has dulled use Traditional Wax (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/trad.html).
56192 (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm)

Never use a ROS for buffing as buffing requires a 100% positive action on the surface which you don't get with a ROS. Best to use a Swans Down Mop (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sdmops.htm) which buffs with the grain of the timber instead of putting swirls onto the surface.
http://www.ubeaut.com.au/buff2.jpg (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm)
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old bastard, but I am and as a manufacturer it is really frustrating to see people with all good intention who try to shortcut a finish, then turn around and say it's no good. If these finishes were no good or only just, they wouldn't be among the best and most sort after in the world today.

A couple of tips:
No matter what else you do. When it comes to finishing you MUST follow the instructions to the letter. Unless you have many years of experience behind you and really know what you're doing. Even then....
Don't always follow blindly the instructions of other person unless you have seen the finish they have achieved up close and intimately. What they may think is brilliant many others may think is pretty ordinary.
Don't try and fix up a stuff up without seeking expert advice from someone who really knows.
Always allow the maximum drying or curing time for a finish then leave it sit for a at least a week preferably more, before using a wax of any sort over the top.
Patience is not only a virtue but for a good finish it's almost mandatory.
If you stuff don't be afraid to up go back and try it again.
Don't try to fix up a stuff up with another completely different product, Mostly it will fail somewhere down the track, if not immediately.
Try and get some lessons from an expert or adult classes.I hope this is of some help to you.

Cheers - Neil :)

[back yarder]

What I meant Neil was I have followed what was on the can, then used the EEE wax as a polish as offered by another forum user suggested.
As far as I can tell I haven't cut any corners Neil.
Then after reading on your web site that it can be used on organ oil I thought this would be OK
As explained Neil I am a novis and will be learning as I go.
I joined this forum only a week or two ago to talk to other people interested in this type of work not be hammered by professionals?:? After purchasing your product I would have hoped to be treated a little more pleasantly. No one is saying any product doesn't work I only was after a different finish.
Thanks to all the other forum members for the information posted and to you Rob, I followed your instructions and the table has come up great, still have a little work to do yet but so far so good.:2tsup:
cheers

[ubeaut]

What I meant Neil was I have followed what was on the can, then used the EEE wax as a polish as offered by another forum user suggested.Now you see, that's not what you said, it may be what you meant but definitely not what you said, hence my challenge to you.

I won't even bother with the "hammered by professionals" remark or any of the other stuff.

As a novice you asked for help and comments or thoughts. That is exactly what you got. You weren't hammered or attacked, then again you weren't treated with kid gloves either, just as someone who was seeking honest advice. Take it for what it was, constructive help. Just as you asked for.


After purchasing your product I would have hoped to be treated a little more pleasantly.:realbighug:

Neil :biggrin2:

[back yarder]

Alright then Neil.
would you say your Tradwax is better than the other products I have mentioned.
I have got linen mop and used that as described and things are looking good but everyone wraps the tradwax so wondering if I should give it a go.
cheers

[LGS]

Hi Back Yarder,
The UBeaut Trad wax is very, very good. If you use the EEE cream before hand it's even better. Give the surface a couple of coats (trad wax) a few days apart and the the feel and appearance of the finish is superb. I now use it almost exclusively, except where a poly is needed, in which case I will use Minwax Wipe On Poly satin. The gloss makes everything look like plastic.

Regards,

Rob