trying to understand all the technical info

[Clinton1]

Hey all.

I'm trying to work out if I should buy a Canon 400D or upgrade to a higher cost camera (in the Canon range).
Can't understand the technical specifications... I'm just a dumb photographer, manage a good shot here and there and gain a great deal of enjoyment from it.
I'd like to take a better photo, and I've outgrown my Canon A540 Powershot ($170) point and shoot digicam, which is not real difficult to do. Some of my photos are here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/clinton_findlay/)if you want to see what I try to do.

I'd like a camera that will take me though the next few 'technical growth" phases without me outgrowing it... something that gives me complete control over the photo's 'focus, exposure, arpeture and light settings' and allows me to develop as a photographer without any worries that I will outgrow the camera over the next 4 or 5 years.

I like the fact that the computer in the Canon 400 is the same as in the entire Canon digital SLR range... all the way up to the highest cost.

So, if anyone can offer a little assistance in working out if the higher cost camera's (40D, 30D, 1D) would be better for me.... please do, 'cause its doing my head in!

[Harry72]

Im happy with my 400D, the pro-range canons will give you a better picture if you know what your doing(hell I dont), otherwise buy the 400 and spend the difference on a good lense or 2... the body is just a basis for them!
Nikon are very good too.

[woodbe]

Hi Clinton,

You have some fine shots in your gallery, I think you will enjoy moving up to a DSLR.

Don't get too bent out of shape about which body to buy. Anything you get will be a big step up from the digicam in every way apart from size and price. Canon have basically 2 ranges of DSLR's

The 'Prosumer' range: 400D, 40D, 5D

The Pro Range: 1D MkIII, 1Ds MkIII

Whilst the Pro range are great cameras, they have a couple of drawbacks for non-pro users - they are bloody expensive, and they are heavy. So, if you are strong and rich, buy one of them :)

In the Prosumer range, you have the choice between the entry level DSLR in the 400D, it's small and light, and has a cut-down feature set compared to the other models. Still very good though. The 40D is just released, and it has a lot of features, as well as having noticeably lower noise at high ISO (think low light shots with minimal colour noise in the image) Both the 400D and the 40D are what is referred to as 'crop cameras' What this means is that their sensor size is smaller than the standard 35mm SLR 24mmx36mm. The 5D on the other hand is a full-frame camera with a 24x36 sensor or thereabouts. The 5D has been out a couple of years, and will likely get upgraded in the next year, but it also has great high ISO low noise capabilities.

In the Pro range, the 1D is a crop camera, and the 1Ds is full frame.

The last factor to consider, is lenses. The bottom line is that whatever you spend on the camera will probably pale into insignificance when you add up all the lenses you buy over a few years. Once you have a DSLR and have a look at the range of lenses, it's hard not to buy the odd one or two. Like the cameras, Canon have two ranges of lenses, the 'pro' lenses being designated as 'L' lenses. You will have seen these, they are the white lenses you see pro photographers using. They are great lenses, but also expensive...

Hold the cameras in your hands...

So, choose your weapon. Crop camera or full-frame. If you go crop camera, check out the feature sets and decide if you want/need the extra toys and image quality of the 40D. Once you are getting familiar with what each camera has, go down to the camera shop and hold each one in your hands. Take a few shots with each and decide which is the most comfortable for you. Some people say the 400D seems too small in their hands, but others love them.

Unless you have a really good reason to buy Canon, and even if you do, spend some time looking at the Nikon DSLRs too. Their entry level camera (D40) is the cheapest way of getting a DSLR in your hands at the moment.

Hope that helps.

woodbe.

[bitingmidge]

Clinton,

I'd second woodbe's advice, specially regarding the Nikon D40, here's a review that may be helpful.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d40.htm
also read this article.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/nikon-vs-canon.htm

Look at the economics of buying a body only, and a Nikon 18-200mm VR lens.

With that combination you'll only need one lens for a long, long while, and may well work out more cost effective than a Canon and two lenses which cover the same range.

On the other hand, you may get a kit with a couple of slightly lesser quality lenses quite economically for either camera.

Cheers.

P

[wheelinround]

Hi Clinton I agree the the Canon Range is excelent I have noticed that the price here in Australia of the 400d in comparrisson to the 30D is closing 400D kit with 2 lens is anywhere from $1100 in store to $1800 while the body for the 30D is $1900 to $2300.

Lenses is what will make the difference

i have the old SLR EOS 100 with 105 and 300 zoom lens they both will fit the newer Digital i am looking at the 400D myself.
Now although these lenses are terrific and similar to the 300 which comes with the kit I beleive that checking out other lens options first and maybe just buying the body and standard lens $1100 and then going for a moe sutable lense to your particular needs.

Canon has just released the new range of stabalizer lenses.

The othe adavantage is that Canon has a self cleaning system hmu where does all that dust go.

The magniseum case of the 30D up gives yes more wieght but less chance of cracking when dropped heaven forbid you do.

Your photo site was one of the first I located when first browsing the forum a few years ago I kept thelink and have gone back to see if you had been snap happy all great shots.

Ok question time the bright Orange beenies religous or did you set it up:p

next question prices of Canon in Temor:rolleyes:

[Allan at Wallan]

Hi Clinton,

Before purchasing your new camera it may be wise to
have a look at an excellent digital camera site called
dpreview. Just Google dpreview and it will come up.

You have the opportunity to look at the latest range from
all the camera manufacturers and more importantly you
can read reviews from purchasers. I think there are about
167 reviews by purchasers of the 400D.

It assisted me greatly before I purchased my digital.

Allan

__________________________________________

I am not at all worried about dying
... but just hope I am not there at the time.

[Ramps]

G'day Clinton ... keeping a little busy

Excellent idea getting a DSLR is definitely recommended before you go any further (not that there's anything wrong with the pix you're taken).

Woodbe has given an excellent run down on the options from Canon. Great choice their ... I chose the same. The equiv Nikon (which I used for work) at the time was nearly double the weight and I was not the only one to consider.

I see the main difference for my level of photography is a) the weight b)the price c) durability. The pro series will prob last a lot longer. but then I thought I'd get the standard range at the time and extend the warranty for three years ... by then I figure the technology will have well and truly overtaken me and the prices for "next years" technology will have decreased to well within range of "affordability".

Invest in good lenses cos you can take them on to the next body ... but then again being in the tropics you are likely to "lose" a lens due to the fungus that can grow on some of the inner elements unless you're ultra particular about handling and storage (in a sealed container with a heap of frequently refreshed silica gel in the bottom).

Just go for a cheapie (400D) and standard lenses and make sure it's covered by and extended waranty and insurance. It'll be great and in three years time you might be ready to upgrade regardless of what you buy.

[Clinton1]

Well, thanks for all the info… my internet keeps dropping out, so I’m having to do this in Word and hopefully will be able to drop it in. It’s the 3rd or 4th attempt at a reply L

I’ll leave off the niceties till my connection gets better.

Ok… now you have got me looking at the Nikon D40, and I stumbled across the D40X.

Differences between the D40 and D40X:
The D40x has 4 megapixels more,
its base sensitivity goes down to ISO100 instead of ISO200,
Auto ISO goes to ISO200 instead of ISO400 only,
and it’s a little faster in continuous shooting.

Price is D40 $1100 (18-55 and 55-200 ED), and
D40X $1300 (18-55 and 55-200 ED lens’).

As the VR lens is way out of my budget, I’ll forget it exists!

Canon 400D with Canon EFS 18-55 and EF 75-300 lens’ $1500.

The Canon 400D seems to beat the Nikon D40X in these areas:
Anti-dust materials and low pass filter, dust reference for dust deletion in the pic (I like the sound of that as I’m out in the dirt a lot.)
6 more Auto-focus areas with greater range.
Has a 35 zone sensor for metering (I can’t work out the meaning of Nikons 420 pixel RGB sensor spec).
White balance includes Kelvin temperature.
Image parameters are much more detailed.
Has mirror lockup, Nikon does not.

Nikon D40X has it over the Canon 400D in a faster shutter flash sync rate (1/500 as opposed to 1/200).
Has 6 more custom settings.

All things considered the Canon 400D seems to offer more for a comparative price to the Nikon D40X, while the Nikon D40 comes in best on price for less dazzler specs, i.e. save $400.

Sound about right?

Apologies for a curt reply… the dropping net connection is really giving me the Richards!

[woodbe]

Clinton,

Sounds about right. Looks like you are getting a grasp of the features and what is important for you.

Don't forget to hold the contenders in your hand before you make your final decision...

woodbe.

[bitingmidge]

If you can get a five minute connection: Here's a complete technical comparison. Then go to the conclusion page (from the menu at the top) and you'll see the conclusion is a dead heat between the D40X and the 400D.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/page20.asp

Personally, I'd save the $200, buy the Nikon and use the money for a couple of filters and a tripod.

Cheers,

P
:D

[Clinton1]

Niceties time!
Harry – I've seen some of your shots… I think you are on the learning curve and going up very quick! I just began to educate myself about all the technical stuff, and there is a lot to understand. It was good to see your Cape York shots... did you have another crack at the water fall and fiddle with your ISO/exposure/arperture?

Woodbe – some good food for thought there…. The pro range of camera is way out of my reach, although if I could con someone to pay me for a photo instead of just asking to use them I might be able to afford it. Good points on the lenses… which adds weight to my idea of trying to get a body that I’ll be pleased with for a few years. ? Sensor is something I'd like to 'max out' on, but can't see a way of affording a full size sensor.

Peter – That VR lens is great, although bloody expensive. I’d prefer to leave one lens on the camera, as in my film days I was always swapping lenses and dust issues became a real drama. Thanks for the links… I’ve gained a lot from them already. I had rubbish lenses for my Canon film camera.

Wheeling – the beanies are to keep the statues warm… the statues are memorials for kiddies that have passed away, placed into the care of the Buddist Saint for children. It makes an eerie temple when you are looking at hundreds of little statues and realise what they are. Some temples allow parents to add small toys… will see if I have a good shot to post onto the flickr site. The temples make sure that there is an agreement so that all statues are dressed the same by the families... which still allows the families to 'care' for their departed kiddies. A caring, thoughtful concept, something I really liked about Japan.

Alan and Ramps – how do you find navigating the menu in the Canon, as some reviewers really don’t like it. Do you change stuff and how ‘user friendly’ do you find it?

[Big Shed]

I find one of the best sites for digital camera reviews is this one (http://www.steves-digicams.com/cameras_digpro.html)

[Clinton1]

that was quick you blokes!

hmmm, dead heat hey..... insert thinking smilie.....

[wheelinround]

Niceties time!o

Wheeling – the beanies are to keep the statues warm… the statues are memorials for kiddies that have passed away, placed into the care of the Buddist Saint for children. It makes an eerie temple when you are looking at hundreds of little statues and realise what they are. Some temples allow parents to add small toys… will see if I have a good shot to post onto the flickr site. The temples make sure that there is an agreement so that all statues are dressed the same by the families... which still allows the families to 'care' for their departed kiddies. A caring, thoughtful concept, something I really liked about Japan.?

Clinton thank you for the info will keep an eye on the flickr site
Ray

[Ramps]

Clinton
Find both the Nikon and Canon fairly logical to navigate. On saying that I don't use much of the menu system.
Mostly my stuff is auto or manual (or something in between) and all is available at the fingers without taking your eye from the view finder ... I'm sure there's all sorts of extras in their like the mobile phone that I use ... and I say extras. Once you set the image quality and a few of the other features I doubt you'd were touch them again.

The more familiarity you have with the camera and photography in general the less you'll want to rely on all the "menu features"

Recommendations: handle it, you want solid but remember the weight you'll be carrying (inc another lens and the charger). Don't pay for "features that you don't immediately need: you'll prob find that you don't need them anyway but if you do by the time you need them it might be well time to upgrade ( and the megapixels will be 50-100% greater for the same price). Battery life and expectation. Type of memory doesn't matter anymore as it's all cheap but the bigger format (CF) is easier to handle for clumsy fingers or urgent situations or to find when throw it loosely in you pocket when in a rush). Nikon or Canon you can't go wrong.

[Harry72]

Harry – I've seen some of your shots… I think you are on the learning curve and going up very quick! I just began to educate myself about all the technical stuff, and there is a lot to understand. It was good to see your Cape York shots... did you have another crack at the water fall and fiddle with your ISO/exposure/arperture?

Not learning enough struggling to organise time to play about! I think I had a play around while taking those pic's... have to go through them and have a look.
Note to one's self, if taking photo's and playing with settings take a note book and record the changes you make to each shot!
With canons software you can obtain the settings(even a full auto shot), but thats not much good out in the field unless you have a lapD

[woodbe]

Harry, have a look at the LCD options. Mine has a 'info' button, and I can toggle an overlay of the exposure and/or histogram to display by default.

woodbe.

[Jedo_03]

It's all up to the glass, far as I'm concerned...
You would save a lot of money - to then buy decent optics, if you looked downriver from Nikon porche's and Canon masserati's...
The K100D is a VERY good intro to DSLR...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk100d/
Like Designer Jeans - case of whether you want to cover your ????, or show it off...
Jedo

[bitingmidge]

Note to one's self, if taking photo's and playing with settings take a note book and record the changes you make to each shot!
With canons software you can obtain the settings(even a full auto shot), but thats not much good out in the field unless you have a lapD

Harry, don't change everything with each shot, just alter the aperture or shutter speed or whatever, keep fiddling "out there", then get a hold of an EXIF reader application, there are a number of very simple ones out there for free.

I can't recommend one for PC's. But you can get every bit of data from your photo, from the time you took it, to the focal length of the lens, shutter speed, colour correction etc etc... it's all recorded. Several hundred items of information.

You will soon get the hang of what worked and what didn't even though you are reading it at home after the event.

cheers,

P

[Ramps]

I use both Picasa ( another google "product") and irfanview for simple edits and viewing of pics. Both of these can show you all the exif info, camera, ccd size, aperture, iso, shutter speed etc etc
ciao

Oh yeah and both are free!

[Coldamus]

The K100D is a VERY good intro to DSLR...
Jedo
I'll second that. Just bought a K100D Super last week for $700 including 18-50mm lens, rechargeable AA batteries and charger. The "Super" model has a dust reduction feature but is otherwise the same. Most shops have the standard K100D still available at up to $100 less.

I had read all the reviews but was still stunned at the technology and picture quality for the price. Check out the user reviews on the same site that Jedo quoted. 77 reviews, most overwhelmingly happy.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/read_opinions.asp?prodkey=pentax_k100d

[Jedo_03]

Aye...
I'm more than happy with this piece of technology...
remember that Pentax have been around for donkey's years... (I still have an original K1000 with a prime lens - have hundreds of beautiful portrait prints of my g'kids growing up...) So this mob know their stuff...
And beauty is - the prime lenses (K mount) that fit the K1000 also fit the K100D... (manual focus) so BONUS...
Anti-shake technology is a BIG plus - and the ISO settings are remarkably noise free... I shot 1/25 at ISO 800 without a tripod and it came out fine.
For the price - the K100D is ahead - for now...
Jedo

[Ramps]

I must admit I have been an advocate of Pentax for years with up to 3 pentax bodies at one stage (still have 2 ... one being a k1000) great camera.
When it came to purchasing a DSLR though I had to go with a autofocus as my wife has trouble focussign in dark situations. That pointed to Canon ... they have the technology whenit comes to af ... Nikon are good now too but Canon was better value for $$$ in the range we were looking at the time.
Still get out the old k1000 occasionally .... what a shame.:no:

[Clinton1]

Well, the good news it that I just met someone that has the Canon 400D and we plan to go out and play with it and I'll get to try it out. Her friend has a Nikon, and another has a flash Pentax or something. So I'll get to try all before I buy.
The bad news is that they are all journo's and I've been known to rant on about journos every now and again.

Seems I shall be learning about cameras (and trying them out) and photography, as well as learning about patience and holding my tongue. :rolleyes: :D

[rhizome]

Thought I'd add my 2 bits worth to this discussion. Part of my work involves me taking photos of machinery (also have done a heap of outdoor furniture now too). I'm not a professional photographer (learning fast) but am now using two off-camera flash units on tripods. I use a Nikon D80 with standard Nikon 18-135 lens. I have been very impressed with the results from the camera. Excellent menu navigation and pretty much 'everything' can be setup/adjusted.

A client bought a smaller Olympus SLR (same MegaPixel) however after an attempt at using it, it's pretty much a toy next to the Nikon and despite the highest quality jpeg setting (which creates a 2Mb larger file size than the D80!) the image quality is still not as good. So I guess the other factor in a good camera is what's going on in the software and CCD. Guess it depends on what you are using it for, the Nikon is heavy (solid) but personally I like a heavy camera. The more expensive cameras also offer command or remote firing of flash units which can have savings if you start heading down that path.

Have not used the D40 but I have always had a good run from Nikon cameras. Canon also have a loyal following so I'd guess you can't go too wrong there either.

Next stage will be a much better lens with less distortion.

[Bleedin Thumb]

I was/still am a K1000 owner and love the thing. I'm just waiting on getting an OS price on a K10D which is similar to the K100 but is fully dust sealed. Pentax have now got their own range of autofocus lenses which are also weather/dust sealed and are getting great reviews...I hope to post my own review very shortly.

[wheelinround]

A great site full of great individual information many have asked these questions
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech.htm

Check this out Clinton http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/150-vs-5000-dollar-camera.htm

[Clinton1]

Hmmmmm.....

Last weekend I had an opportunity to play with the Canon 400D, and did the following experiment:
I set the ISO rating from the 100 - 1600 range, and took a series of identically composed photo's. Later I had a look at the shutter speed and F stop values and compared photos. Camera on Auto setting with the ISO speed changed only each time.
All photo's are pretty much identical in appearance, with the following changes to shutter speed and F stops.
ISO 100 - 1/200, f/10,
ISO 200 - 1/250, f/11,
ISO 400 - 1/400, f/14,
ISO 800 - 1/500, f/16,
ISO 1600 - 1/800, f/20.

This makes me think that the 'programming' concept of the camera is to take a photo that is 'within a certain set of parameters', when in Auto mode, regardless of the ISO setting... i.e. the camera is idiot proofed at certain levels/settings.

This is interesting, as my Canon A430, 4 Megapixel, @$150 point and shoot is producing pretty good photos.
I've learn to interact with its programming (or software) concept and manipulate the programming. This forces the camera to change settings for aperture, shutter speed and ISO when you can not actually change these settings yourself.

For example:
Compose the photo in your head and think about what you might do if you could change the aperture, shutter speed and ISO to take the shot.
Then... focus 'off composition' to an area that has different light levels (but the same focal range that you will want) to the area you are going to shoot, hold the shutter button 1/2 down to 'hold the settings' and turn the camera onto the area to shoot.
The point and shoot camera takes its reading and settings for the 'off composition area' and uses that for the photo on the 'target area'.

I'm getting good effects this way, and it is good to begin the same process with the Canon 400D.

I'm still a long way off spending my hard earned $ on something so expensive.... but I'll get there... :B

[clubbyr8]

Hi Clinton1,

Interesting results. How do the photos look when you do a 100% crop? Compare the centre of each photo and compare the edges. What lens did you use and if it was a zoom, what was the focal length?

White balance is another parameter that's interesting to play with. I never leave it on auto. I set it to the closest to the prevailing conditions. I do have a white balance card and I should use that (by taking a picture of it and then using that picture to set custom white balance). But I tend to be a bit lazy. When I take up shooting RAW full time I'll have to condition myself to use it.

[Clinton1]

Focal length is 40.0mm for all five shots.
I see what you mean... I zoomed to 100% and the ISO 100 is more focused and has better colour than the ISO 1600 one.

Its difficult to tell at 0% crop, and I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference when printed at normal size.

The lens was the standard 35 - 80 (?) that comes in the two lens kit.