Veritas Green compound trouble

[kman-oz]

G'day folks, some quick advice on using the Veritas Green Honing Compound if you please (crayon variety).

I've been applying it to a scrap of MDF just for honing micro-bevels on plane irons and polishing the backs, but it never quite seems to do what I expect. Firstly, it's almost impossible to get an even spread of the stuff, it seems to get clogged and leave thick bits here and there while others are apparently un-touched. Do I need to heat it first or something?

Secondly, presumable as a result of the first problem, I always manage to get great smudges of it stuck to the blade and/or just scrape the stuff off the MDF! A helpful fella at Carbatec suggested perhaps abrasing some glass and applying the crayon to that for honing.

When I do finally manage to get it cutting (which *seems* to be a result of more friction heat) it does a fine job.... but 1 in 5 attempts just isn't good enough for me. I know this stuff is designed for power stropping, and it's quite cool in Melbourne, is this the problem?

[lesmeyer]

I always use the Veritas honing compund on a leather strop and the results are great. I have heard that mdf can be used, but never tried it.
Maybe the compound was exposed to extreme cold at some stage as could be expected in Melbourne. No such problems in Perth.
Les

[thumbsucker]

I've been applying it to a scrap of MDF just for honing micro-bevels on plane irons and polishing the backs, but it never quite seems to do what I expect. Firstly, it's almost impossible to get an even spread of the stuff, it seems to get clogged and leave thick bits here and there while others are apparently un-touched. Do I need to heat it first or something?

Secondly, presumable as a result of the first problem, I always manage to get great smudges of it stuck to the blade and/or just scrape the stuff off the MDF! A helpful fella at Carbatec suggested perhaps abrasing some glass and applying the crayon to that for honing.

I have the same problems and I to am in Melbourne. I have found that going drawing the stick on at all kinds of angles and directions help to fill in the empty patches. Try not to put it on to thick more like water color painting then clown makeup. I have found heat helps to spread it and a touch of veg oil also works but the oil gets messy. It is great stuff but getting it to work :((

[bitingmidge]

I just rub it on like a bit of crayon, don't worry about getting it even at all.

After half a dozen passes of the blade, the high spots have been knocked off and it's smooth as a baby's bum. You don't need to cover every bit of the MDF, just make sure you get every bit of the blade to pass over it.

Polish the back of the blade first, and don't worry about it. It only takes a few rubs.

Some of it will crumble off, some will stick to the blade when it cuts it, use a bit of turps on a rag to dissolve it.

Cheers,

P

[Paul Chapman]

When I use honing compound (I use jewellers rouge - similar to the green stuff but a bit finer and maroon in colour) I use it on a leather strop and mix it with Vaseline. This keeps the leather supple and stops the sort of build-up you are getting. The results are excellent. Don't know if it would work on MDF but might be worth giving it a try.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

[scooter]

kman, I use it on an mdf disc on an arbor in the drill press.

I initially scratched the disc radially then applied the compound to it while it was moving. Looks patchy but works OK.

Stu in Tokyo put up his buffing wheel here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=38451)a while back, he applied oil to leather then red rouge. In the pics it spread out well.

In that thread, Auld Bassoon (now decd, RIP) referred to forum member Wood Borer using the Veritas crayon on MDF, maybe send WB a PM asking for info. He used to live in Melb too.


Cheers......................Sean

[kman-oz]

You guys rock! Two very interesting ideas came from this; MDF power buffing wheel and changing the viscosity of the stuff. Both sound like real winners, thanks especially for that thread scooter.

I'm thinking MDF buffing wheel for a bench grinder in place of a hard felt wheel, cheap and, no doubt, very effective. I like cheap :) Would perhaps melting some of the crayon down and mixing it with oil/vasoline into a paste make life easier? Vasoline sound like a winner to me....

*runs to the workshop*

[scooter]

Suck it & see, I guess. Bear in mind the grinder spins pretty quickly, so will fling off anything too thin. Also the hight speed is less than ideal.

I made up a 1" thick MDF wheel for my grinder a few years ago but ended up taking it off, can't remember how well it worked. I only used the edge of the wheel, maybe try the face (ie. side) as well. Will enable you to reduce the surface speed at the too tip.

Just be very careful to have the rotation of the wheel away from the edge, not into it. Hopefully obvious but potentially harmful if not considered.


Cheers....................Sean

[kman-oz]

Well, errr... don't I feel the fool now....

Ok, I added a very quick pritz of WD40 to the MFD and a very lite scribble of green stuff to generate a very thin paste. This worked extremely well because the once spread out the oil tended to soak into the MDF leaving a flat polishing surface (picture 1). You can see by the colour that it's turned from a light/medium green to almost black from the steel removed.

This has also served to illustrate how much revision my plane iron flattening method needs:doh:. The scrates are still visible near the cutting edge. At least it's shiny:B

[scooter]

Looking good, mate :2tsup:

[hansp77]

kman-oz
I was going to tell you, but you already tried it.
WD40 works well with me.
I'm not fancy enough to have Veritas, I just use the old bunnies Josco red and green. Got em on special. To me, mirror finish is mirror finish, doesn't matter what brand gets me there.

I've used MDF, works ok, I've used good quality cardboard (artists mounting board) which works really well- you just dispose it when it is stuffed- and I have a large rubber sanding disc thing that I put in my power drill with a leather disc stuck over an old sanding disc. Works a treat for larger items.
My latest addition has been a wooden spindle on my lathe, with flats, hollows, mounds, sharp edges, slow curves, etc., with rouge and WD40 soaked into it. Works well to get into corners and do round things such as the sockets on socket chisels- as well as doing flat things. When the wood and rouge is all used up and black, then I run a piece of sandpaper over it, apply a touch of fresh rouge, oil, and start again.

[scooter]

Like to see some pics, hans :)

[Mark Woodward]

Hi HansP77

kman-oz
I was going to tell you, but you already tried it.
WD40 works well with me.
I'm not fancy enough to have Veritas, I just use the old bunnies Josco red and green. Got em on special. To me, mirror finish is mirror finish, doesn't matter what brand gets me there.

I saw the Josco sticks at Bunnies the other day but wasn't sure they'd produce a mirror finish as I couldn't find a grit size/ micron etc. Couldn't even tell which was the coarsest and which was the finest. Might just buy the red and green ones and give it a go!

Just watched an online video at finewoodworking showing Garrett Hack sharpening a chisel. He went from a diamond stone > India > Hard Black Arkansas > 8000 waterstone > 1micron diamond paste on a bit of hard cherry. I've been doing a similar thing using waterstones to 8000 grit and stopping there, but I'm interested to see if the extra step of stropping using diamond paste or Josco/Veritas rouge makes a difference.

Derek will probably know this off the top of his head but am wondering how stropping like above would compare to a 12000 grit shapton??


thanks,

--
Mark

[hansp77]

Scooter,
I will try to get some photos soon (gotta borrow my gf's digi camera- and I have yet to take and post photos of my crazy new-OLD homemade timber lathe:2tsup:- I like it)
though the spindle thing is nothing special- just looks like an overdone ornate chair leg or something... covered in black rouge.... in fact, I will probably make a new one that is bit prettier for the photo:rolleyes:- I have a few new BIG old chisels to clean up (slicks:2tsup:), so will do the curves to suit the big sockets.
I really can't imagine my method works any better or easier than a cloth wheel on the grinder - its just that I only have one grinder and always use the wire wheel and a stone- so don't have anywhere else to put my cloth wheel- and can't really be bothered to change and change back:-
soon I will set up the cloth wheel and do a comparison to see if my spindle polisher thing has any merit,

Mark,
I am more than happy with the josco stuff- though I have nothing else to compare it to.
I thought the white was the finest grit, though from memory I think it said it is for aluminium,

so- I just found a PDF (http://www.warburtons.com.au/upload/catalogue_section/17_PDF.pdf)
that gives this info

maybe the blue is the finest grit...



GREY Cutting Compound use to "cut-back' light
scratch marks on copper, brass and stainless
steel prior to polishing - always use with a
stitched rag buff
BROWN Cutting Compound. General purpose
for use on copper, brass, aluminium and most
metals - use with a stitched rag or loose leaf
calico buff
GREEN Polishing Compound. For a high gloss
finish on copper, brass and stainless steel - use
with a loose leaf calico buff
WHITE Polishing Compound. For a high quality finish on aluminium and
aluminium alloys - use with a loose leaf calico buff
BLUE Polishing Compound. For a high gloss finish on most plastics, silver,
gold and die cast articles - use with a loose leaf calico buff
Personally the red (or should I say 'brown') produced a finish good enough for me- but well, the green was on special, and I sorta just grabbed it:- and sure enough it does make a finer polish,
now I want the blue too:D

their website is still under construction and the polishing link (as you can see) is 'coming soon'- hopefully soon will have some info.
http://www.josco.com.au/jia/products/products.htm

maybe some of the other more knowledgeable members can tell you if it is rubbish or not.
Works well for me.

[kman-oz]

Perhaps this is no revalation to anyone else, but this honing compound stuff is awesome! Refining my method, I now apply the oil in-directly with a rag, then rub on the rouge which seems to work considerably faster. Heavy pressure also seems to produce easily visible scratches in the surface, but lighter pressure cleans them up fair well.

Of course, the surface reflects very well, well enough to count the bits of fuzz on my ears, but the honing direction is still clearly vissible under a direct light source. Does this sound about right?

[Wood Borer]

As Scooter said, I use it on MDF for both my chisels and planes.

I have no problems using it "straight" and it's a bit cooler here than in Melbourne.

I run my chisels over it every few minutes when I am doing dovetails or other joints.

I might give the WD40 a try - thanks for the tip.:2tsup:

[scooter]

Of course, the surface reflects very well, well enough to count the bits of fuzz on my ears, but the honing direction is still clearly vissible under a direct light source. Does this sound about right?


Kman, that'd be because the polishing compound is doing just that, polishing the surface, but not eradicating deeper scratches from the last used abrasive.

This is the principle of using successively finer abrasives to remove the scratches from the previous one, yielding a finer and finer surface finish.

Skipping steps by moving straight to a buffing/polishing compound still yelds a sharp edge, just not as smooth an edge, to quote derek.

This may matter on, say, a smoothing plane blade where the surface will be left as planed, but otherwise the time saving of buffing has a lot of proponents (read Jake's (apricotripper) hand plane threads, for one) and is essentially the process that the Tormek type system uses.


Cheers...................Sean

[kman-oz]

Kman, that'd be because the polishing compound is doing just that, polishing the surface, but not eradicating deeper scratches from the last used abrasive.

Actually I mean to say that the honing direction used with the rouge is clearly vissible. For example, when polishing the backs of blades my last step is a 6000 stone before moving to the rouge. On the stone I polish left handed because of the layout of my sharpening stuff, but on the rouge I polish right handed. After a time the left handed marks are gone, replaced by right handed marks from the rouge.

To be clear, these are not scratches left by the previous grits and don't detract from the finish, but under strong light are clearly vissible as a slight misty finish with direction. In ambient light you wouldn't see then, but a strong light source reflected directly into the eye shows then up easily.

Am I applying too much pressure or something?

[scooter]

Errmmm, got me now. Few or many marks? Contamination in/on the rouge perhaps?


Can be worth a reality check sometimes, too, what is the surface like that the tool is leaving on your workpiece? If it is leaving a fine, smooth surface, you can't really improve on that...

It's easy to get a bit too obsessive with these things. :D


Cheers.....................Sean

[kman-oz]

It's easy to get a bit too obsessive with these things. :D

Quilty as charged :rolleyes:

I can shave my arm easily and the plane irons leave a lovely smooth finish, so it probably matters not. That said, this is the first time I've managed to get a plane iron sharp enough to shave with and I have no idea what a finished iron should look like. I'll try to get a picture if I can, not sure how the flash will effect it though. Too bad my cheap chisels don't take the same edge.

Either way I'm satisfied that it's working well. Thanks all for your suggestions and help!