New Life for an Old Saw – Advanced Filing and Restoration

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197342.jpg

A 6-dollar flea market beater? Yes, but this one is a Disston Acme 120, originally a cabinetmaker’s finish saw tapered and hardened to run without set, and one of Disston’s finest. So let’s see if it can be given another lifetime of use in a slightly different form.

Old saws filed so many times their tips resemble pencil-points usually aren’t worth the trouble, as when they get that thin and narrow they are too easily kinked, and this one’s no exception. Restoring this in its original 26-inch length isn’t a good option for it to survive another generation of use. So I’ll shorten it to panel saw length to make it useful again, but that’s not as straightforward as it seems if the saw is to please the eye and hand. Panel saws had smaller handles than their full-sized counterparts, and their blades were uniformly contoured to match their smaller proportions; they weren’t just stubby versions of full-sized saws.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197346.jpg

I don’t have a small #120 handle, but I do have an extra Keenkutter panel saw handle and another complete matching saw to use as a pattern. These Keenkutter #88 skewback saws were made by Disston using #16 handles and probably P26 blades from the Harvey Peace factory they bought out, for which Disston offered custom etching in hardware store logos like EC Simmons’. Mr. Simmons knew his saws. These are not only excellent, taper ground saws, their profile pleases my eye. I scribe the new profile onto the #120 blade, and use the bevel gage to duplicate the tip angle. I’ll make the #120 a 22-inch saw based on the amount of blade remaining.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197344.jpg

Saw steel grinds quickly and relatively cool using a coarse, 8” wheel, with the occasional water dip as the wheel gets close enough to burn what will be the final profile. Here I don’t just grind up to the scribed line, I take the line.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197347.jpg

I fair the curves by drawfiling using 2d-cut and smoother 1st-cut single-cut files. This is done largely by feel. When I feel a bump I alter the file angle for a more aggressive cut, and finish using my finest single-cut file straight across. The files are chalked and frequently brushed both to keep them from clogging and to prevent stray filings from causing scratches during finishing. I rarely use chalk when jointing and sharpening however, as it often masks what I’m trying to see.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197848.jpg

After fairing I ease the sharp edges slightly using the fine file in the drawfile mode.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197343.jpg

I fit the new handle and drill the bolt holes using a cobalt bit. The easiest method is to mount the handle and carefully drill through it, indexing each fresh hole with a bolt to insure alignment is maintained. Clamp the saw down during drill extraction to prevent it riding up on the drill.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197846.jpg

On the anvil using light and heavy hammers, I remove the saw’s tension, hammer out the kink and retension the entire blade as I’ve detailed in previous articles on permanently removing bends and lumps in saw blades. Saws straightened in a vise, by bending over the knee or even by hammering flat won’t remain straight for long without stretching the edge and back to restore the tension put into the blade when it was manufactured.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197843.jpg

This blade isn’t heavily rusted and isn’t pitted, so I forego phosphoric acid to seal the pits and merely clean the steel using 4 grades of Scotchbrite in sequence lubed with mineral spirits.

Continued….

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198055.jpg

Sanding is followed by a green rouge buff against the direction of sanding to restore some shine.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197841.jpg

Because I’ve shortened the saw the etch will be off center and unsightly to my eye, so I’ll blue the blade to hide it. But this is a good opportunity to demonstrate how to raise an etch like the faint one you see here.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280197838.jpg

To raise an etch, first avoid sanding it without using a sanding block when you clean the saw. Then degrease after buffing using mineral spirits followed by stronger trichloroethylene, and apply cold gun blue from a sporting goods store to the area of the etch. Follow the instructions on the bottle for curing and oiling.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198049.jpg

After the blue cures, simple rubbing with a sanding block and 600-grit wet-or-dry paper lubed with WD-40 or honing oil will reveal any etch remaining. All these bluing solutions will rust if not oiled, some badly, so don’t omit it.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198054.jpg

I then phosphate blue the entire blade, using the procedures I detail in a previous article on rust proofing tools. This type of blue applies a layer of rust-inhibiting phosphate to the steel, which also slightly fills the scratches and grinding marks present, making the blade a bit slipperier. You can read more about this at Brownells.com.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280319351.jpg

I secure the saw in the vise and lightly joint it to see what I have. While the joint and teeth look well-maintained to the naked eye, this saw has faults typical of both commercial filing, and filing for sharp points at the expense of the joint. One row of teeth is shorter than the other in several places where one side was filed past the flats on the teeth made by the joint, and the saw was filed straight across by machine using a file larger than optimum for these 11 tpi crosscut teeth. The gullets are perfectly uniform, but are too large, making the teeth too short.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287209.jpg

Jointing insures all the teeth perform the same amount of work during cutting and involves more than just regulating tooth height. When the tooth line is wavy as shown above, the saw drags as teeth on the forward slope of a bump bite wood, and those teeth wear more quickly.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287733.jpg

This tooth line isn’t perfect either close to the tip, but it’s more than adequate for efficient sawing. Keep in mind as we go that my goal isn’t perfect saws, it’s perfect sawing, and there are differences between them.

Continued…

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287726.jpg

Jointing is where you add or subtract “breast”, the amount of crown in the tooth line. Crown breasted saws are more difficult to joint, but rake sawdust more efficiently and crowns are always most pronounced on saws for green wood with gummy sawdust like the old one and two-man falling and bucking saws once used to harvest trees. Here I show a saw with a light breast on the left, a full breast in the center, and a straight or unbreasted saw on the right.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287215.jpg

Before we look at filing, let’s look at files. Saw files are tapered triangular files with 60-degree corners, come in several confusing sizes, and always have “1st-cut, single cut” teeth as these cut slowly but produce a finer finish than coarser “2nd-cut” and multi-tooth files. Vintage Saws and file manufacturer websites like Simonds International have helpful guides for what size file is best for each pitch of saw, usually expressed in tpi or teeth per inch. But what if you don’t have the recommended file? Can you substitute?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287213.jpg

Sure you can substitute. There are two factors guiding recommended file size. The first is you want the narrowest file possible so you can see the saw teeth better, yet you don’t want the file to use more than half its width when filing a tooth. That way you have three completely-sharp cutting surfaces on each file to use as each wears out.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287211.jpg

The second factor is gullet width. The wider the file, the wider the flat at each corner, the wider the gullet it will produce, and the wider the gullet, the shorter the tooth. Of course there are limits. A knife edge file would minimize the gullet, producing a taller tooth, but the blade would also be prone to cracking at the gullet, and there are a couple hundred years of trial and error behind those file size recommendations that shouldn’t be ignored.

But you can certainly substitute files. New files of acceptable quality are expensive, and excellent values can often be had buying boxes of NOS taper files in off sizes and 2nd-cut files. You can use the coarser 2nd-cuts to shape the teeth and finish with your 1st-cut files. 3-inch Regular Taper, 1st-cut files can be currently had for pennies each, and substitute nicely for 3 and 4-dollar 5-inch Slim Tapers and 6-inch Double Slim Taper files. Just be aware that switching file sizes on the same saw can change the shape of the teeth due to even minor differences in gullet width, and the same can be true when switching manufacturers of the same size file.

Saws are filed in the stages detailed in several on-line articles on basic saw filing, like Pete Taran’s at the Vintage Saws website:

1) Jointing to even tooth height and straighten or fair the tooth line or breast.
2) Shaping the teeth to even the size of the flats made by the joint and set the rake angle.
3) Filing the “fleam” or cutting edge bevel angle until the flats disappear, creating sharp teeth of uniform height.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280288206.jpg

The major benefit of sharpening your own saws is you can tune them for how you use them. I usually work outdoors in damp, air dried wood and use hand saws where the mass of the work piece and the required angles and finish often preclude the use of power tools. Often 30 linear feet at a time too, driving study and experimentation in what makes the most efficient saw for my tasks. Accordingly, my saws are generally filed with the full crowned breasts and sloped gullets my boatbuilding family has used for generations.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287204.jpg

Here are two identical 4 ½ tpi rip saws. Identical except the saw in the foreground clearly has taller teeth, and also a slight back bevel on the rear edge of each tooth. Seen at a different angle they look almost Japanese, and that’s probably not a coincidence. It was filed holding the file at a 45-degree angle to the blade, instead of straight across or 90 degrees to the blade like the saw in the background was filed. The geometry of a tri-cornered, 60-degree file is such that the greater the angle it is held at, the taller the tooth it produces. Brent Beach has a web page that examines sloped gullets in more detail, including their history and accurate engineering drawings that better demonstrate their geometry.

I find the taller teeth work more efficiently in the wood I use. They bite a bit deeper and rake damp sawdust a bit better, and the back bevel that sloped gullets produce on rip teeth score the wood on the back stroke for easier removal on the front stroke. You’ll have to try them and see if there’s any benefit with the woods you use. Whatever your preference, how to file sloped gullets isn’t described anywhere else and they are another tool to place in your kit if you ever feel you need them.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198050.jpg

When changing a saw to sloped gullets, I combine the steps of shaping the teeth and filing the fleam angle into one step, and concentrate on “filing to the joint” instead of equalizing the size of the flats made by the joint during tooth shaping followed by counting file strokes to produce teeth if equal height. Accordingly, I don’t use carbon black or other aids to insure I don’t skip a tooth, as skipping a tooth doesn’t matter when concentrating on the joint. I also tend to file one side less than I would when filing conventional teeth, switching sides more often, and sometimes even rejointing if I make a mistake and file a tooth past its jointing flat. Notice I have my usual fleam angle scribed into the jaws of my saw vise. I prefer a shop-made wooden vise with long jaws because I like to file while standing and I can file an entire side without having to move the saw in the vise.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198218.jpg

On the first passes I’m hogging off a relatively large amount of steel, and am concentrating more on getting out my gullets, establishing a uniform rake angle and not filing past the jointing flats than I am about the fleam angle. I’ll emphasize the fleam later on my final passes when filing is easier, and I may even change the rake angle later after testing the saw on wood.

Continued…

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198221.jpg

Keeping your angles constant when changing sides takes practice, and it’s also useful to move your work lights so you can clearly see the jointing flats.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198223.jpg

Don’t continue filing if you can no longer clearly see those jointing flats. Take a break, move your lights or both. Also don’t hesitate to rejoint if you make a mistake and file past one. Moreover on saws like this one with short teeth and one entire row of even shorter teeth, you often have to compromise your initial jointing or not leave enough gullet on the short teeth to rest the file in, which is necessary for basic tooth spacing. You can see here that even after a full pass on each side, one row of teeth remains taller than the other, so rather than attempt too many tasks at once with the file, I rejoint and begin again.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198431.jpg

I generally set the teeth before my final pass on each side of the saw so any damage caused to the cutting edges by the saw set is removed. Here you can see several small jointing flats remaining on the top of the teeth. When setting, I’m careful to place the plunger of the sawset at the same spot on each tooth, and when possible slightly back from the cutting edge bevel to minimize damage. And yes, although these Acme saws were designed to run without set, if a tad of set makes your saw more efficient on the wood you cut, then you can add a minimal amount without damage by using the lowest setting on your sawset.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280424039.jpg

Rip saws filed with sloped gullets are set oppositely from crosscut saws. Sloping the gullet puts a small bevel on the back of each tooth, creating a point, and the point must be bent outward to create the desired chisel point of a ripping tooth.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280319346.jpg

On my final pass to eliminate the remaining vestiges of jointing flats, I do so by leaning the file into the backs of the teeth rather than continue to file rakes and fleams. Uniform rake and fleam angles and their cutting edges are important, the backs of the teeth aren’t when your only objective is sharp points on the teeth.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198427.jpg

I make some test cuts in relatively hard, air dried Douglas Fir at 12% moisture content to insure the saw cuts smoothly and accurately to a line before stoning off any wire and flash caused by filing. When filing sloped gullets for the first time, you may tend to file in more rake than the blade will take, so be prepared to put the saw back in the vise and make another pass on each side to reduce it.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198430.jpg

The finished hybrid panel saw. Cost? Six dollars, one file, and a couple of evening hours.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198425.jpg

My short saws don’t get used much, but can be handy. They also can be practically free, and it’s kinda fun when among the #120’s, #12, #16 and #88 shown it’s hard to tell which if any began life as a short panel saw. ;)

[JDarvall]

Thanks Bob. I enjoy the amount of detail you give. Makes it clear.

Wish I new more about handsaws so I could give you a decent conversation on it.
I've just got an old tenon saw I sharpen and set. a stanley quick rip saw and ajapanese saw for fine work. But I can't sharpen those last two. The rest of my saw work is powered.

Being able to follow curved work like you have pictured catchs my eye. Thats definetly not something that I'd ever risk doing with a power tool.

[Bob Smalser]

...Being able to follow curved work like you have pictured catchs my eye. Thats definetly not something that I'd ever risk doing with a power tool.

It's a different trade, for sure. And probably the last one of mandatory professional hand saw use. Who else today really needs a large selection of rip saws? ;)

[Waldo]

G'day Bob,

What a beaut WIP in sharpening a saw :2tsup:

Now I've got a few Disstons and a tennon saw which has a Spitfire on it, all which the engraving is getting harder to see, so your thread has come at a very good time.

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)

[Bob Smalser]

G'day Bob,

What a beaut WIP in sharpening a saw :2tsup:

Now I've got a few Disstons and a tennon saw which has a Spitfire on it, all which the engraving is getting harder to see, so your thread has come at a very good time.

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)

Any cold gun blue will work for your purpose. Sporting Goods and gun shops have it. The Oxpho comes in small bottles and is better rust protection but spendy...and only available from Brownells...ask them if they have an Australian distributor.

[Waldo]

G'day Bob,

Thanks for the reply, I'll follow it up.

[Driver]

Bob

Thanks for this. We're quite used to seeing expert tutorials from you, of course, but this one is really timely. I am going to be making a saw vice over the coming weekend and then attempting to sharpen and set a post-WWII Disston cross-cut.

You can be sure I'll re-read this thread several times!

[jmk89]

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)


Waldo

This guy http://www.acmeengineering.com.au/gunsmithservices.html says he has an association with Brownells and can help with importing.

Perhaps a few of us could but a box of smaller bottles through him?

Cheers

Jeremy

[Waldo]

G'day Jmk89,

Yeah, could be worth a go. Things are a bit tied up for me now, but I'd defineitely be interested in a shortwhile. :2tsup:

[Woodlee]

Waldo

This guy http://www.acmeengineering.com.au/gunsmithservices.html says he has an association with Brownells and can help with importing.

Perhaps a few of us could but a box of smaller bottles through him?

Cheers

Jeremy

Id be interested in a couple of bottles as I do some gun work as well.

Kev.

[jmk89]

On Oxpho-blue, I will give this guy a call and see what he will do for us!

Bob also put this thread on the UKworkshop forum - there is an interesting addition to the info - Bob sets the teeth in reverse because this is a rip saw with sloped gullets - here is a link (http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216747#216747)

[jmk89]

On Oxpho-blue, I will give this guy a call and see what he will do for us!..




I sent him an e-mail. It explains why we don't find this stuff here:

"Unfortunately this is not available in Australia due to import restrictions.
A similar product call Colorsal is available from Fuchs.
This is a salt for hot caustic bluing and although simple to use can be dangerous if mishandled, read instructions carefully."

I will look into the Colorsal product and let you guys know.

[Waldo]

G'day Jmk89,

Thanks on the update, be interested to read what you can find out. :2tsup:

[jmk89]

OK

Fuchs have sent me a note on Colorsal. You can only buy it in 20 litre quantities! and it has to be used in a 5 bath system where the various baths are heated.... A bit tough for a home job to deal with rust on a few saws, planes and chisels!!!
Here is the product info sheet, Fuchs sent me:
57605

So I think I may give this a miss! But don't let my lilly-liveredness hold anyone else back.

In the meantime, I have found a supplier of small amounts of the Birchwood Casey liquid cold blue. I may look into this a bit more and see what comes of it.

If Bob Smalser is still looking at this, is it OK to use the Birchwood Casey blue or does it have to be Brownells?

[Woodlee]

OK

Fuchs have sent me a note on Colorsal. You can only buy it in 20 litre quantities! and it has to be used in a 5 bath system where the various baths are heated.... A bit tough for a home job to deal with rust on a few saws, planes and chisels!!!
Here is the product info sheet, Fuchs sent me:
57605

So I think I may give this a miss! But don't let my lilly-liveredness hold anyone else back.

In the meantime, I have found a supplier of small amounts of the Birchwood Casey liquid cold blue. I may look into this a bit more and see what comes of it.

If Bob Smalser is still looking at this, is it OK to use the Birchwood Casey blue or does it have to be Brownells?


JMK,
I bought a small bottle of the Birchwood Casey liquid gun blue just recently ,so far I have used it to blacken a pair of antique fencing pliers I have had for a long time and decided to restore them. It works good .
Just follow the instructions on the bottle .It also helps to put the steel in the sun for a while to warm it up.
I will be using it on my Stanley mitre saw to bring the etch back to life.

Cheers
Kev.

[jmk89]

Kev

That sounds like the way to go, then.

BTW, on following the instructions, have a look at this suggestion (http://www.potfire.com.au/info/reno1.htm)on how to get a better result using cold blue - the idea is to use gun oil rather than water to neutralise the blue solution...

[Bob Smalser]

If Bob Smalser is still looking at this, is it OK to use the Birchwood Casey blue or does it have to be Brownells?

Compared to Oxpho it wears off quickly, offers inferior rust protection, and likes to after-rust after application. Use lots of oil.

[Woodlee]

Interesting ,I did a pair of large needle nose pliers on the weekend and used water to flush off the residue .Then I soaked them in CRC 5-56 and wiped them clean after an hour or so.
I checked tonite and they seem ok ,I havent been leaving them overnite like the article says .
Next tool I try I'll follow that article.

[Woodlee]

Compared to Oxpho it wears off quickly, offers inferior rust protection, and likes to after-rust after application. Use lots of oil.


I guess we are stuck with it though Bob .
Years ago I reblued a Marlin 45-70 lever action rifle , I used the g96 creme . It all but rubbed off with in a few weeks of use .I still have the rifle and it has a nice worn patina to it ,but not much blue colour.

I have a few old recipes for gun blue concoctions ,but have no idea what some of the chemicals are or where to get them .

Cheers
Kev

[rodp]

Dont know if you guys are still reading this but a product called duracoat(i think something like that ) is unreal brother is armourer and has done a couple of things for me gets it from Qld sunshine coast think its yank blue or black then a sealer. Did stair saw which I missplaced on exposed back deck got rained on etc no rust pitting pretty impressive

[Hardenfast]

Many thanks for your efforts in posting another great tutorial, Bob. I was lucky enough to complete part of my carpentry apprenticeship with an old dutch tradesman who was a wiz with all hand tools. He would have had no idea what "the dark side" was all about.

Anyway, he took the time to show me how to sharpen different handsaws properly and made sure I attended to this on a regular basis. Twenty years or so later I found myself teaching 1st year Carpentry & Joinery part time at the local Trade College and attempting to interest the guys in saw sharpening. Unfortunately by this time everyone owned a Power Saw, a Compound Mitre Saw, a Jig Saw, a Reciprocating Saw, a small Table Saw etc.

Also, the age of the disposable hardened point saw had arrived, and at $20 each most couldn't be bothered with general use hand saws any more. Those that did own one just sent them off to the saw doctor as they couldn't be bothered themselves, or simply didn't know how.

Great to see you re-visit this craft, and much appreciated by all here. I learn a lot from the incredible detail in each of your posts.

Wayne

[Surgeon]

OK

Fuchs have sent me a note on Colorsal. You can only buy it in 20 litre quantities! and it has to be used in a 5 bath system where the various baths are heated.... A bit tough for a home job to deal with rust on a few saws, planes and chisels!!!
Here is the product info sheet, Fuchs sent me:
57605

So I think I may give this a miss! But don't let my lilly-liveredness hold anyone else back.

In the meantime, I have found a supplier of small amounts of the Birchwood Casey liquid cold blue. I may look into this a bit more and see what comes of it.

If Bob Smalser is still looking at this, is it OK to use the Birchwood Casey blue or does it have to be Brownells?

I have blue many firearms with Colorsal and Houghto-black both available in Aust .
I think they tend to put people off with the process , but with Colorsal you can achieve one of the best "blue color" around .
The procedure is simple all you need :

A heat source (LPG is fine)
Steel or 304L stainless containers (2 off) welded seams
Stainless (Tig) wire to hang objects

And thats all

In one container I run a caustic degreaser at a temperature of 100º C
And in the second I use the Colorsal roll boiling at 145º C

The use of personal protective equipment is on the highest order !!!!!
Never take short cuts with any boiling caustic solutions ..

Procedure :
Place item (nothing other than Steel) in the Degreaser until all traces of grease ,oil are removed , then while item is still hot place it in the colorsal bath , lifting occaisionally to check desired color.
You will find that a brown rust film will cover the job on removal but before it cools cover with SAE 30 or so oil then you will find the rust will come off ..
With heavily rusted items I usually imerse them in a diluted solution of Hydrochloric acid before the degreaser .
Hope this helps !

[Bob Smalser]

Sorry, but the only cold blue that provides any significant rust resistance is Oxpho. Birchwood Casey is particularly bad about after rust and wears off qquickly.

[Woodlee]

Bob ,
I bought a Disston D 3 saw vice a few years ago , and was wondering what the two thumb screws were for on the rear jaw.
Then a year or so ago I managed to get my hands on the same model vice and it had this attachment which swivelled and had a bracket that a file fitted into (pics attached) .On the swivelling part there are markings that look as if they were put there by a previous owner as a guide for filing cross cut saws.The marks correspond to 90 deg perpendicular to the saw vice and the other two about 15 deg at angle to the vice to the left and right ( 15 deg either side of 90)
I realise its a saw filing attachment but I have never seen any reference to this on a saw vice.
I'm just curious as to the rarity of the attachment ,as I haven't seen these before or any reference to them .
Were they some thing that a saw doctor would regard as a gimmick and discard , or were they used .
I actually got two attachments with the second vice , but one is missing some parts for the file holder.

Kev.

[Bob Smalser]

I don't know anything about storebought saw vises or filing jigs. I imagine there were countless designs. With woodies you don't have to stop filing every 15 minutes and reposition the saw.

The new one with hinges is a British design from Alice Frampton's web site and the old one is a Pennsylvania Dutch design I grew up with.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17976228/281479717.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17976228/281479715.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17976228/281480258.jpg

Using a couple simple strips of wood the old birdsmouth vise handles back, tenon and dovetail saws nicely....so I keep it around. It's just slower to set up the saw.

[Woodlee]

Ok . Thanks Bob.

[Ianholc]

Nice post bob. Love to read someone who has done the miles to know their stuff