Turning/design efforts

[Christopha]

This thread is NOT directed to any individuals whatever!

Over the last couple of years I have noticed that more and more turning of mediocre, at best, and downright poor, at times, turning is shown in this section and seemingly almost without exception it receives high praise. In my humble opinion we are not doing these folk any favours by heaping praise indiscriminately as I don't feel it encourages turners to better their turning and/or their design skills. Is there is a way of gently suggesting improvements in order to actively encourage people without causing offence?
Please read my wee disclaimer at the top of this post!!

[echnidna]

This trend goes beyond just woodturning and into the other woodworking areas too.

[Cliff Rogers]

Also seems to have hit the jokes forum. :D

[robyn2839]

no more posts from me

[silentC]

A fair and valid point. I'm not a woodturner's armpit and I'd never pass judgement on someone else's work from a technical point of view. I've seen some things that I've felt looked pretty ordinary but I have tended to go with "if you can't say anything nice ..." point of view.

I suppose it depends on the reason people are posting their pics. Is it so they can benefit from other people's opinions on what they could have done better, or is it just so they can say "aren't I clever". I admit I usually only post pictures if I think I've done a better than average job on it. I certainly don't post pictures of the failures, although I would arguably benefit more from the latter. If people post negative criticism, I try to take it on board but it does get the hackles up a bit if you think you've done a good job.

Yes a good point. Maybe people should sign off with "all criticism, negative or positive, welcome" or "please don't knock my work, it makes me want to cry". :)

[Any negative criticism of this post will be met with hostility]

[Christopha]

no more posts from me

WHOA!!! back up, this post was not aimed at individuals, it was not inspired by recent posts in here and Bob, I guess woodturning really is my forte' even though I am a chippy by trade so that is what I am concerned with, OK? My post is not in any way designed to offend or discourage.

It is not a joke either Cliff....:rolleyes:

[Cliff Rogers]

...It is not a joke either Cliff....:rolleyes:
I know that, it was merely an observation. :rolleyes:

[bitingmidge]

no more posts from me

So I have to ask why?? Is it that you post your work to get a whole heap of false adulation so you can print it out for the noticeboard at work?

Or was your post a joke?

Chris has made a very good point, and as all the others have said, it is a point that could well be directed across the board.

There's a difference between giving a newcomer incouragement, constructive criticism, and some of the paternalistic accolades that seem to floss on by.

If it's floss you want, as silent says, just mark the thread "no negatives please" :rolleyes: or log on as two or three people and write your own rave reviews.

There are a lot of people with a lot to offer, so why not let them?

Well spoken Chris. (and Cliff is right too.)

P
:D

[PAH1]

I would agree with Christopha, there have been things put up that looked butt ugly to me that got a lot of praise. Maybe we should think of qualifying it, eg I like the timber, etc if you are trying to be nice. To some extent the only way to get better is to be critical yourself and find the things that you do not like about a piece, putting it up here may be a valid way of extending that but you need to get some real feedback about the piece.

[Alastair]

To weigh in,

There are 2 (possibly) separate issues here, in my view.

Firstly is the issue of design and aesthetics. While there are 'rules' which are run out, to a large extent this can be in the eye of the beholder, and a very subjective thing. Observations and comment is probably the best here.

In a different category are the questions of technique, skill, attention to detail, and finish. These are easily evaluated, and IMO not negotiable. This to me is where the soft view is always taken. When I look at or pick up a piece, no matter how good the line, form, timber etc is, I will immediately discount the piece if there is unresolved tearout, sanding marks, a "dimple' or "nipple" in the bottom of a bowl or box, rattling lid, blurred and sanded away detail, or 'orangepeel' crudely sprayed finish, to list just a few of my aversions.
Sadly a large proportion of pieces I have seen displayed fall into this category, no matter how pretty the timber, or seductive the form.

It is however frowned upon to offer any criticism, as not 'politically correct'. If one does, it is either resented, or discounted as not being relevant.

I would like to note that at the Woodturning Club I attended in Durban, in a previous existence, all work submitted was evaluated at meetings in an Instant Gallery. This evaluation was objective, analytical, and sometimes brutal. Certainly the latter wrt issues of technique etc. While led by the MC of the evening, it would include input from all. Design and form also copped it, and while this was more critical of the established turners, newbies also received their share.

It must be noted that criticism was always coupled with advice, assistance and where necessary, help and teaching. What it did ensure, was that no lazy cr#ppy work was trotted out for syncophantic praise. When you had a good piece, and it was well received, you knew you had achieved something. You also learnt!! Locally, I have seen some turners churning out the same shoddy work for 7 years now, without seeing much improvement at all, (with exceptions obviously)

My apologies, did not intend this to turn into a rant, but obviously I feel more strongly about this than I thought.

regards

[silentC]

There are 2 (possibly) separate issues here, in my view.
I agree. I started trying to put that to paper too but you've encapsulated what I would have said.

[bitingmidge]

My apologies, did not intend this to turn into a rant, but obviously I feel more strongly about this than I thought.

Not a rant at all, a valid commentary.

Many, if not most serious design courses subject students to a "critique" of each of their projects, by both their peers and lecturers. It is often surprising to the student to discover that his/her work isn't held in the same light by others, but often robust discussion ensues, so that both the critiquee and criticiser learn in the process.

It is not surprising that we also have so many posts which bemoan the fact that they cannot achieve a reasonable return for their work, when often (but not always) the price is a reflection of the quality, and at the same time, there is often an outcry when an item is offered for a high price. The "I could do that's" come from miles around.

I think there may be a correlation between the two. A lack of constructive criticism can set unrealistic expectation of worth.

Cheers,

P (outranting Alastair)
:D:D

[Christopha]

A lack of constructive criticism can set unrealistic expectation of worth.

Cheers,

P (outranting Alastair)
:D:D
Please, if that was a rant or two then keep 'em coming! :2tsup:

I don't care if we end up with umpteen questions here as long as we can encourage our fellow turners to aspire to do better and as far as I am concerned we ALL can do better.... There has been work posted on here that has made me drool with envy and there has been work posted that has made me feel embarrassed that the poor turner posting it has thought it at all acceptable.
If we can have decent, constructive critiques of work then surely it will benefit all and if someone posts something that needs just that then the poster should receive accolades for their 'courage' and and desire to improve.

[arose62]

Maybe two threads/fora?

One titled "I'm really proud of this!"
and the other "Critique wanted" ?

Cheers,
Andrew

[joe greiner]

On another forum that I visit (also uses VBulletin), the moderators have posted a sticky with a title something like "Critique documents." It advises those who post work to include a phrase such as "Critiques welcome" to solicit criticism. Absent such a phrase, the sweet talk there could rot your teeth.

Stickies don't show up under "New Posts" of course, but most new members would likely visit individual forums for a while before utilizing "New Posts" or "Ispy," and such a sticky would be highlighted on their first visit after joining. (I think.)

Joe

[OGYT]

I'd rather have some input as to how I could have improved the form of a piece, than a pat on the back. I'm still a novice at turning, so I gotta improve.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I think it's worth remembering that there's been a fairly heavy influx of beginner turners to the forum. (Not even "novice" grade yet.)

There's not much point in being critical of final appearance or form if they're still trying to master the tools and form is basically beyond their control. In the early days a bit of encouragement helps, even if it is only "you chose a nice wood."

I'm not saying we should praise crap :no: but there's no need to bag a beginner. It doesn't earn anyone any points and early on criticism can be more discouraging than an encouragement, no matter how well intentioned it may be. :shrug: On the other hand, there's nothing to stop people from giving advice, saying "I would have done XXX instead because YYY." Not criticism, but just gentle pointers...

However, once they start offering small critiques of their own work or otherwise ask for critiques, then the velvet gloves can come off and one can be more forthright. :D

[wheelinround]

I am one of those newbies
If my lathe would not have the problems it has (and I am not oing into that) I might have more confidence to venture further.
Space $$$$ and health for me are all part of not be more forth coming or/and producing works or any sort.

I am my own wrost critic I punish myself form the lack of professionalism I know I can achieve.

I was going through the archive and am amazed at guys I see now producing works of art who were fledglings long ago.

I am off to Hawkesbury Turners open day this saturday tomorrow hopefull so I can learn speak and spend time with masters.

Bugger obviously not well can't think straight today at all.

I agree if praise isnt or shouldn't be given then dont, but maybe advice some times looks like an over bloated attempt to sidetrack the issue.

[rsser]

I would encourage constructive criticism too, and have provided some as have other regulars on this subforum.

I don't recall you ever providing any however Christopha and if my memory is right, perhaps you should be thinking about 'walking your talk'.

... or else, as our 'seppos' might say, get off the pot.

[bitingmidge]

there's no need to bag a beginner. It doesn't earn anyone any points and early on criticism can be more discouraging than an encouragement, no matter how well intentioned it may be.
Skew, I think you've made a good point, but there is a very real difference between 'bagging' and constructively criticising. I believe constructive criticism is even more important for a beginner.

I don't classify myself as anything but a beginner, having had five lessons and probably 15 hours of turning in five years, and I have to say my teacher was not backward in suggesting improvements, and I learnt more in those five Saturdays than many learn in a few years by themselves.

Ern,

Unless I've missed something, I think Christopha's changed his medication. You may well be surprised! :wink:

Cheers,

P

[Big Shed]

Also seems to have hit the jokes forum. :D

Ain't that the truth!

[BernieP]

G'Day Christopha

As a "newbie" I have posted quite a few pics on this forum and asked and expected criticism about them. Because of some honest criticism I believe my work has improved, and hopefully will continue to do so.
I also take great interest in pics of work done by people who consider they are experienced enough to offer to critique on others' work. I have on occasions saved the pics and referred back to themas something to aim for. Unfortunately these type of pics are few and far between, so I would urge please show us some of your work so we can all benefit. I know we can use the search function to find some, but I can't find any for some posters, so don't be shy.
Meantime please feel free to criticise my work as this is why I post the pics. If I want accolades my wife can always supply them.

Cheers
Bernie

[scooter]

Chris, I reckon there is always a way of
gently suggesting improvements in order to actively encourage people without causing offence?
, it comes down to how carefully the words are chosen, the manner in which they are delivered, and the typical tone of the poster as to how they are taken.

A lot of newbie turners, myself included, put up pics to show off an item they are particularly chuffed with. I think it's reasonable to expect some constructive criticism, a lot of how it is taken has to do with the three points I mentioned above.

It takes knowledge of design, time, and thought, to do this for each time a new item is put up, so unless a critique is specifically asked for, a number of members would just rather pick out a positive and comment on that, rather than say nothing. Encouragement goes a long way at the bottom of the learning curve.


Cheers.................Sean

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Scooter, you managed to clearly say exactly what I was trying to fumble my way across. :2tsup:

[hughie]

Scooter,
Well said and fully agree with you. Some folks may forget that at some stage we are all newbies.

My observation is that there are alot very talented and helpful turners here and then there are those who, for a million different reasons are a work in progress.






The truth is we are all a work in progress :U

[Lignum]

Many, if not most serious design courses subject students to a "critique" of each of their projects, by both their peers and lecturers. It is often surprising to the student to discover that his/her work isn't held in the same light by others,


Double edged sword this one. I remember my first "crit" and it was an eye opener not only for me but for all others involved.
When it comes to students critiqueing other students, its more one-upmanship than honest appraisal, and even then they havnt the necessary knowledge or experience to do it properly.
After a few months of design theory they are all experts, and all to often it isnt good advice and thats where the experience and knowledge of the lecturer comes into play. Accepting criticism is one of the best ways to improve your craft, but you shouldnt take it as fact.
Its probbably not a bad idea to have a look at the work of those who are doing the crits. If you like there style and technical quality, take it on board. If you think its just average and amateurish, then think about it a bit harder.

[littlebuddha]

Woodturing is rather a large area and a lot of things to remember for the beginner, my own work needs to improve a lot and i think i have turned out a few okay turnings but still a long way to go, the thing is the way some one tells you what you might or could have done to improve a turning, in the design the wood or the finish of the turning. Unfortunately there are those that do not think before they say something, my last turning on here was seen on another site and had a reply that:
...........................................................................
Personally............. I dont like it

It's to small, to busy, the curves and coves are unbalanced, timber is to figured for such a piece, a simpler shape and form using oak would look much better, but hey, that's my opini
............................................................................
I think if i were a real begginer that it would have caused some friction as it is, i am my own crittic and can always see my own faults, and we always have our own taste in what we like or dislike, just because we don't like something does not mean that it is not good or turned badly, make it constructivly not put the turner down, we all learn some more quickly than others, and at the end of the day whatever comes of the lathe if you had fun with it then that has to be good, my moan for the day, happy shavings guys. LB.

[Frank&Earnest]

Maybe two threads/fora?

One titled "I'm really proud of this!"
and the other "Critique wanted" ?

Cheers,
Andrew

Good idea. IMHO the best solution would be to have a specific forum titled "My work -critique wanted" so that everybody knows what they are going to get, and move the "I'm really proud of this" items to the blogs. If moderators had the time and the patience to do a bit of education in this regard and redirecting if necessary after establishing the intention of the poster, it should work a treat.

Of course, nothing stops brown noses from being brown noses, but at least there is no equivocation on what is expected. Encouragement does not require hypocrisy. And beginners genuinely in awe of mediocre results because they do not know any better should become more aware of the merits of their contribution.

Please, please do this! So the straight shooters (or other less "encouraging" description :D) like myself won't feel bad for not joining the conga line of more generous people!

[ihog]

As a newbie turner, I have not posted anything because I don't feel my work is up to the level that I see on here. Maybe one day I will have something, but until then I will have an empty shelf.

:fingerscrossed:

[rsser]

Simplest would be for the thread title to invite comments.

A separate forum would end up in overlaps IMO as discussion got down to 'how do you do this'.

[RETIRED]

Simplest would be for the thread title to invite comments.

A separate forum would end up in overlaps IMO as discussion got down to 'how do you do this'.Yep. Moderators have enough to do now.

[orraloon]

Well this thread has got things jumping. A good all round think on why we post on here. I feel sure most post because of a mixed bag of reasons. I think the main reason most of post is to share information. I have learned a lot from this site and in return put a little bit back in. Even mistakes made by some are valuable information to others.It is nice to get praise but i think we are all looking to learn more and expect to get some comment on where things can improve. I find I get both and so far have been content with the general tone of the site as it is. We are after all a collection of people who share a common intrest not students submitting projects for marking. If the site had a panel of judges with the necessary bona fides then that may be a bit of fun to run our modest efforts past them. Just a thought.

Regards
John

[Christopha]

John, I don't think the word "Judge" in any of its' forms is appropriate for this forum. I don't believe that any of us should set ourselves above others as god-like figures who denigrate and discourage anything not to our personal tastes...

I would like to post a list from a book by William R Duce. He is a small scale turner whose rules fit, I think, pretty much all turning.
Golden Rules Of Woodturning
1. Turning should always be fun.
2.Turning is a personal exploration, so satisfy your inner muse first.
3.A successful turning is a balance between technique and design.
4. The success of your project is dependentupon a positive attitude, not expensive tools or secret tricks.
5. There is no shame in making a mistake, just try not to make the same one twice.
6. Never stop looking for inspiration, especially outside the world of woodturning.
7. A finished turningwill always look better than one only half turned. By finishing what you start you may just surprise yourself.
8. The properwayto use any tool is whichever way works best for you.
9. Never be discouraged by people saying, "That is pretty, what is it?"
10. Design gimmicks and fads have the approximate lifespan of free burl at a turners convention. Avoid them at all costs.

These "rules" may not suit everyone but are a good start I think..... comments?

[rsser]

If the grey matter is working this morning: the World of Woodturners site in the US has the option of you posting a photo which auto. goes into 'your' album and also of adding it to the open Critique album. Site mods then decide if they wish to allocate it to one of their cohort of experienced turners who will then provide the critique. Ordinary members can make comments as well.

That's one way of doing it but it involves a deal of work; so I'd suggest we try out the option of 'constructive comment invited' in the thread title or post opening.

Or mark your pic posts with *** if you just want to share or if the work is too close to your heart still to hear criticisms ;-}

[dai sensei]

Well done Christopha, not that I am an expert, but I share your view often criticism is due but only praise is given.

I believe in constructive criticism and always welcome it, and try to give it where possible. Unfortunately I have never mastered being suttle and I know I have offended some members when that was not my intention. So I often resort to the old, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

I am always busy these days though so don't get time to post as much as I'd like, especially with the increase in threads these days, so just because I don't post doesn't mean I think the work isn't good.

[Frank&Earnest]

If the grey matter is working this morning: the World of Woodturners site in the US has the option of you posting a photo which auto. goes into 'your' album and also of adding it to the open Critique album. Site mods then decide if they wish to allocate it to one of their cohort of experienced turners who will then provide the critique. Ordinary members can make comments as well.

That's one way of doing it but it involves a deal of work; so I'd suggest we try out the option of 'constructive comment invited' in the thread title or post opening.

Or mark your pic posts with *** if you just want to share or if the work is too close to your heart still to hear criticisms ;-}

Thanks Ern for finding out and letting us know that there is one site doing in a much more bureaucratic way virtually what I was proposing. I greatly appreciate your fairness. Your suggestion of self-regulation is certainly easier to implement, my concern is that it requires all posters, including newbies, to be aware and willing to do it in that particular way, otherwise nothing changes. How do you propose to impart/ascertain/control this awareness in a practical way? If it is not done in a structured way, IMHO it would end up fading away unless, heaven forbid, some self-appointed "educator" is forever steering posters towards doing the right thing. And it would still require mods to edit any incorrectly marked thread titles to maintain the credibility of the method.

[ss_11000]

my concern is that it requires all posters, including newbies, to be aware and willing to do it in that particular way, otherwise nothing changes. How do you propose to impart/ascertain/control this awareness in a practical way?.
make an announcement ( thread at the top of forums that no one can post to ) or make a sticky thread at the top of forums with guidelines for posting pics.
most newbies would read th stickies and announcement ( at least i think they would:??)

[rsser]

Yeah, that might work.

Or the regulars respond to each first-time post of a pic of 'what I've done' by asking whether they just want to share their joy or would like considered critical responses.

This forum has its own culture and practices.

A few of us respond regularly to lazy posters with the 'have you done a search?' question and for most newbies the msg gets through and they play the game. Maybe we could add to that a question about what kind of response they were looking for; if serious feedback then referring to the list of judging criteria I posted a while back.

[reeves]

hah bit of a loaded post Christopha. personally i only really want criticism or improvement suggestions from people where i know their work is better than mine, whose work i admire and whose experience is far greater then mine. That way i have a good chance of improving if i take their advice.

Other than that a simple, 'hey good job' or 'i like that its fine' gives approval and encouragement and in general helps give people the impetous to do better on the next pics posted. I think most turners here are committed to improving, thats part of the game, other people here always help in that regard.

the guidlines for this forum seem to be

"This is a forum for WOODTURNERS both professionals and amateurs alike. Make observations, statements, seek and/or give help and advice,"

So my interpretation of that is that there is room for general encouragement a s in " yeah good work mate" and room for considered criticsm from experienced turners... as in " maybe you should try a deeper curve on that edge, would give it better form mate "

One of the things i like about this forum is the frendliness and helpfulness.

Its only really experienced or professional turners who will be able to offer really viable criticism on the more exact aspects of turning. Otherwise all you might get is unknowledgable personal comment and opinions that may do little to help improve work. Also the techniques of improving work will need to be known and i find this has been ably dealt with by the many professionaly written books avialable by experienced pro turners..

I think its probably more fruitful to be an example of this than to post about it.

I have held myself back a few times from saying, "hey that could have a stronger curve mate", just cos i am not a professional or trained turner and i appreciate what anyone post of their work, alos my own work is under constant need of improvement so who am i to critic anyone elses ?

I think about 80-90% of woodturning in australia is done by amatuers and not for professional sale at all, mean everyone enjoys their turning, seeks to improve and enjoys seeing other turners learning about the craft via the pics here.

Thats said i think many people post pics of their work hoping to get some constructive response, encouragement serving that purpose.

Maybe start a thread for constructive criticsm or keep any for those trying to reach a professional level not just trying to enjoy their turnings and share it with others.

I think Ern is on the right track with a informal list of standards or points to look at when presenting work that could lead to improvement. Also a full thread for it not just endless threads of individuals work, such a thread could called, post pics of yr work for constructive criticsim..

some points for consideration might be..

definition of form
function of item
aesthetic function of item..
wood selection appropriate to item shown..
choice of item , bowl, platter, clock etc
finish used or techniques used..
constructive criticism requested
explanation of techniques used..

other than that Chris why not lead by example and post some of your work for constructive critcism..?

[RETIRED]

I liked Stirlos a Erns ideas. A sticky has been put at the top of this thread for the express purpose of pictures of work for constructive criticism.

Read post 1. Good thread Chris. Nearly sent a greenie.:wink::rolleyes:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=596405#post596405

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Personally, I don't see the point in a seperate thread for critiques... all they gotta do is ask and they get one anyway. [shrug] Does this mean that critiques in other turning threads are now off topic? :innocent:

And you do realise that it's probably going to be flooded with pen pix, don't you? :D

[ss_11000]

And you do realise that it's probably going to be flooded with pen pix, don't you? :D
well unless you stuff up there's not alot you can talk about regarding pens IMO:shrug:...thats why i usually just say NPGJ:D

[RETIRED]

Personally, I don't see the point in a seperate thread for critiques... all they gotta do is ask and they get one anyway. [shrug] Does this mean that critiques in other turning threads are now off topic? :innocent: I certainly hope not but it leaves an avenue open for those that want to improve their work and get an honest opinion on their work knowing what the ramifications are.

And you do realise that it's probably going to be flooded with pen pix, don't you? :D Again I hope not.

[TTIT]

Personally, I don't see the point in a seperate thread for critiques... all they gotta do is ask and they get one anyway. I agree with you on that Skew - anytime anyone has asked for critique, it has been given and accepted admirably, providing the critic has qualified themselves and earned the respect of others on the forum - and by 'qualified', I don't mean someone who lists a pile of unsubstantiated credentials in an abusive PM, but rather somebody who gives regular helpful advice, occasionally posts examples of their work and supports the newbs in their endeavors. I don't care how many 'design' courses someone has done, at the end of the day, it just means they have more time and money on their hands than the rest of us. Unfortunately, this thread just looks like someone chasing a license to run other peoples efforts down. :shrug:

[joe greiner]

I liked Stirlos a Erns ideas. A sticky has been put at the top of this thread for the express purpose of pictures of work for constructive criticism.

Read post 1. Good thread Chris. Nearly sent a greenie.:wink::rolleyes:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=596405#post596405

Much better than my suggestion, . No ambiguity about what to expect.

Joe