Burnsy's Mill

[Burnsy]

Bob visted today and I got to have a look at his small mill that I have been wanting to view - man it has grown some bling, probably trying to keep up with the BIL mill. I get talking to Bob about what I plan to do and he looks around my yard and I point out all the bits I have lying around that I have thought about making a mill from. Bob gives me that what are you waiting for you lazy buggar look and I suddenly feel inspired.

So I spent half an hour in the shed and made some inroads. At this stage I have a chainsaw with an 18 inch bar, but the brother has a big one and I know he will want to use the mill (and I will want a bigger one:D). This along with the fact that there is a school desk frame sitting outside the shed that is just crying out to be made into a mill makes deciding how big the mill frame will be real easy. So I lopped off the legs of the frame and cut some tube to make the bar holder extension bit from.

I told Bob it would be a basic model with no flash winding adjusters, but this has already changed so now I have a few questions. How much adjustment have people with mills actually used? I am planing on about 150mm. I figure I will mostly be cutting slabs between 30mm and 60mm thick so why do I need any more? Am I going to be sorry, what has everyone elses experience been?

[DJ’s Timber]

Coming along nicely Burnsy :2tsup:

The deepest I have cut with mine would be 200mm, reason being is that I break down short logs so I can then saw them on the bandsaw.

Another thing too is you also need to allow yourself enough adjustment for the first cut when you'll be using a flat board or frame to get that first "flat" cut

[BobL]

Burnsy, I'm sorry if the look was interpretted in that way. I was really just eyeing off all your good stuff around your yard.:D and an very envious of your shed space.

Anyway it looks like you are well on the way. :2tsup:

In terms of depth cutting you may sometimes want to quartersaw a log. One way to do this is to split the log into quarters so you then need a cutting dept equivalent to half your bar width. Don't forget to allow an extra couple of inches for rails although depending on what they are and where they sit they sometimes don't actually take up that much depth.

So for a 20 in/ bar which would have a cutting length of say 17 " I would allow 17/2 + 2 inches or around 11.5" should do it.

Cheers

[Burnsy]

Burnsy, I'm sorry if the look was interpretted in that way.

No I know that's not what you were thinking, just sounded better when I wrote it :wink: Thanks for getting me started.

Thanks for the comments on cut depth, I plan on using threaded rod inside the bar holder extensions as a means of winding the bar up and down. All up I will only have a maximum of about 160mm I can wind it out. By extending the external sleeve for the extensions lower than the frame by about 40mm I will have a total maximum distance from the bar to the mill frame of about 230mm. With the use of a ladder guide on the logs being milled this will give me a fair amount of flexibility.

I will post some more pics when I progress further.

[BobL]

No I know that's not what you were thinking, just sounded better when I wrote it :wink: Thanks for getting me started.

Thanks for the comments on cut depth, I plan on using threaded rod inside the bar holder extensions as a means of winding the bar up and down. All up I will only have a maximum of about 160mm I can wind it out. By extending the external sleeve for the extensions lower than the frame by about 40mm I will have a total maximum distance from the bar to the mill frame of about 230mm. With the use of a ladder guide on the logs being milled this will give me a fair amount of flexibility.

I will post some more pics when I progress further.

Even though I use guide rails most of the time, the guide is realy only needed for the first pass on a log. A depth of 230mm will get you a long way and even allow you to cut 9 x 9" posts if you need them!

[Burnsy]

Spent a bit more time on it today and it's now operational. The extra long base is cumbersome on my saw so I think I will cut it down tomorrow (there are more desks at school I can salvage and use for the brothers larger saw when needed). I took this into consideration in the final build up and the frame can be unbolted and changed over easily.

First picture shows the inner tube (25mm) with the stainless threaded rod screwed down to the bottom of it. The rod is drilled and has a split pin and squared off washer on top to push against the outer tube.

Second picture shows the outer tube (30mm) fitted over the top of it.

Third picture shows the whole rig.

Fourth Picture - the trial run:D

I had to make a few changes during he trial such as screwing the locked adjusting nuts on top of the rod right down to against the outer tube. I have used some kind of furniture rubbers that were lying around to hold the blade in place. These have a threaded bolt on one side that I attached to the bracket. The nuts rattled loose during the trial so the rubber blocks are now just being held in place by the pressure of the clamping bolts. The central bolt on the rubber lugs is still in place though and holds them central. I think I may just glue these in place with sika when I take it apart as putting the nut onto the thread inside the tube is a right pain.

Best part, the mill cost me $5.96 and that was for the plastic square tube ends/plugs that I have not even fitted yet. Everything else was just lying around waiting to be used on something - it is good to be a Magpie:)

Making the scew adjusting thickness controls was well worth it. It makes squaring off the blade very easy and quick.

[BobL]

Good job Burnsy - sorry my computer was out of action last night and couldn't reply earlier.

Anyway - looking good :2tsup: I like the internal threaders!

I agree, cutting the frame down makes a lot of sense.

A couple of suggestions:

- Adding some sort of cross handles - horizontal and vertical will aid ergonomics.

- For the longer term I would replace the rubber lugs with a steel spacer welded to the inside of the clamp faces. If the rubber wears away part way through a cut your blade/chain will twist onto the bolts and wreck your chain - not to mention bits of metal flying around.

- Weld some skids onto the sides of the clamp.

Anyway - welcome to the addictive world of milling!

Cheers

[Burnsy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am already onto the replacing the rubber as they stuck to the tip of the blade (heat), seemed like a good idea at the time. I am also going to turf out the main frame and just use two 600mm lengths of alloy sign channel, these will also be closer together than the current setup. Because everything is bolted together this is an easy change over. I will build a cross bar (handle) once I have used it a bit, at the moment the outer upright is perfectly positioned for me. Not sure what you mean by skids on the side of the clamp, you will have to show me tomorrow.

The internal threaders work a treat and won't get filled up with sawdust and crap so should stay nice and smooth. Also means there is less gear hanging off the saw to get caught or damaged if it in the back of the ute.

Cheers,
Mike

[Burnsy]

Well I have been on holidays for nearly two weeks and finally actually got a day off today:rolleyes:.

Managed to get three nice 50mm slabs out of the marri log and I am pretty happy for my first effort. I think my chain sharpening skills need a bit more work but the chain was much better than the first cut I did. Now I just want them to dry in a hurry so I can make something with them:2tsup:

[martrix]

nice one Burnsy. Good feeling isn't it? Turning some otherwise firewood into useful planks of timber.

Your in it deep now, there is no turning back.http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/chainsawguy.gif

From my humble beginnings with my little electric, I now have 2 051s with a 44" bar waiting to be made into a mill like BobL's unit.

[Harry72]

Done well Burnsy... the locals are gunna miss all them trees when they disappear!

[Calm]

Great job burnsy:2tsup::2tsup::D

One of the things i have noticed from my short attempt at slabbing and will be making these alterations to mine.
- I notice the up rights from the bar to the frame meet the the frame on a side and are square to the main frame. This will allow the frame to tilt and be unparalell to the bar.

When it is cutting you can sometimes notice sawdust coming off both the top and the bottom of the chain (To test this clamp a 50mm peice of wood to the bar and check that the frame touchs both front and back)

The alterations i am going to make means these uprights will meet the frame on the corner not the flat side. Then when a lock bolt is tightened the frame will "jam against a corner and have no "tilt" movement and must be parrallel to the bar.

By not being paralel the saw is working harder than it needs to be.

[BobL]

Well I have been on holidays for nearly two weeks and finally actually got a day off today:rolleyes:.

Managed to get three nice 50mm slabs out of the marri log and I am pretty happy for my first effort. I think my chain sharpening skills need a bit more work but the chain was much better than the first cut I did. Now I just want them to dry in a hurry so I can make something with them:2tsup:

Good work Burnsy! In this business you have to be paitent initially. Then you'll have more wood you can poke a stick at. I'm lucky I got red gum slabs cut in 1994 all dry and ready to go under my house but the urge is to mill more!


I notice the up rights from the bar to the frame meet the the frame on a side and are square to the main frame. This will allow the frame to tilt and be unparalell to the bar.
This is a good point but can be avoided by using close fitting SHS, providing plenty of sliding support, and placing the locking bolt on the inside of the frame pushing out so if anything the bar is stretched.

[Burnsy]

Great job burnsy:2tsup::2tsup::D

One of the things i have noticed from my short attempt at slabbing and will be making these alterations to mine.
- I notice the up rights from the bar to the frame meet the the frame on a side and are square to the main frame. This will allow the frame to tilt and be unparalell to the bar.

When it is cutting you can sometimes notice sawdust coming off both the top and the bottom of the chain (To test this clamp a 50mm peice of wood to the bar and check that the frame touchs both front and back)

The alterations i am going to make means these uprights will meet the frame on the corner not the flat side. Then when a lock bolt is tightened the frame will "jam against a corner and have no "tilt" movement and must be parrallel to the bar.

By not being paralel the saw is working harder than it needs to be.

You have lost me here, maybe it is just too late to think tonight. Bob seems to understand and I am still hoping to catch up with him at some stage so I will get him to show me. There is not much if any movement in my uprights if that is what you are talking about?

[BobL]

You have lost me here, maybe it is just too late to think tonight. Bob seems to understand and I am still hoping to catch up with him at some stage so I will get him to show me. There is not much if any movement in my uprights if that is what you are talking about?

That's what it sounds like - so's the blade stays parallel to the base of the mill frame.

[Burnsy]

That's what it sounds like - so's the blade stays parallel to the base of the mill frame.

Yep have read it again a few times and I think that CALM is talking about taking away any movement caused by poor fitting RHS.

The arborists came and cut down those two trees on the block next to me today, they were Tuart not the swampy Jarrah I was hoping for. Had termites running up the middle of them. The neigbours wanted it all cut up as firewood so I did not get any lengths.

[BobL]

Yep have read it again a few times and I think that CALM is talking about taking away any movement caused by poor fitting RHS.

The arborists came and cut down those two trees on the block next to me today, they were Tuart not the swampy Jarrah I was hoping for. Had termites running up the middle of them. The neigbours wanted it all cut up as firewood so I did not get any lengths.

Bummer!

[Calm]

Yep have read it again a few times and I think that CALM is talking about taking away any movement caused by poor fitting RHS.

Spot on Burnsy - to check clamp a peice of 50mm to the bar and adjust the frame 5mm above this peice. check to see if the frame will "tilt" up and down so that it is not parralell.

BobL my mill has the clamp bolts on the inside but it can be clamped in the wrong position. By having the uprights on a 45 deg angle the clamp bolts push it into a corner which removes any movement. Hope this explains it.

There is very little movement in mine but over the width of the frame it can be 10 - 15 mm cheers. To adjust mine i clamp a 55mm peice to the bar push the frame down onto it and then tighten the lock bolts.

Love the idea if the adjustable tread - brilliant might have to pinch it:2tsup::D:D

[Calm]

meant to add a photo, have changed the saw to a Stihl660 with a 36" bar same mill as it is extendable on the sides cheers

[BobL]

There is very little movement in mine but over the width of the frame it can be 10 - 15 mm cheers. To adjust mine i clamp a 55mm peice to the bar push the frame down onto it and then tighten the lock bolts.


Would you be able to post a bigger photo so we can see your bolt adjustment setup. 10-15 mm sounds like an awful lot. On my small mill I would say at normal milling depths eg <100 mm the degree of deviation is less than 1 mm.

[Calm]

Bob i'll take some photos tonight and post them to help explain.

[matildasmate]

Can I get one , gee that's cheap I like the height adjuster :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Calm]

Here are some photos of my mill and the problem i have tried to explain

1 The mill on the saw
2 A closer shot of the mounting
3 The gap when tilted oneway as far as it will allow
4 The clearance between the 2 peices of tube. Some of my problem is that the outer sleeve is only about 4" long, whereas a longer one will allow less movement.
5 This is the preferred angle to have the uprights as the clamp bolt will push the tube into a corner and eliminate any tilting movement. (The clamp bolt needs to be on a "corner" of the upright)

Another problem with my design that i will change is the thinnest i can cut is about 30 mm because the sleeve slides down and sits on the top of the clamp.

I intend to change mine so that it can cut 20mm and also have no tilting action. I might pinch your design and incorporate a thread adjuster.:2tsup::D

[BobL]

Thanks for the pictures and WOW, now I can see that you really do have a serious offset! I've never seen one that big. The best way to fix that would have been to use closer fitting SHS in the first place. The SHS I used is so close fitting that when I painted it the paint was scraped off the smaller one in the first pass.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=57699&stc=1&d=1192092817

I can see now why you need a corner fit for the SHS that you are using.

Cheers

[TTIT]

............Another problem with my design that i will change is the thinnest i can cut is about 30 mm because the sleeve slides down and sits on the top of the clamp.

I intend to change mine so that it can cut 20mm and also have no tilting action. ........I wouldn't bother changing anything to allow thinner cuts Calm. IMHO, 30mm would be the absolute thinnest you would want to cut a slab with a chainsaw. In my experience, you are going to get at least some movement, even from dry logs, and by the time you get rid of the chain grooves from the surface, you'll have precious little left. Personally, I wouldn't slab anything less than 40mm and would aim at resawing with a bandsaw later to reduce waste - chainsaws have a horrible big kerf :o

[Calm]

I wouldn't bother changing anything to allow thinner cuts Calm. IMHO, 30mm would be the absolute thinnest you would want to cut a slab with a chainsaw. :o

I agree with that but i am going the slab a bit of dry mesmate about 20mm then cut it down with the power saw to make spacers when stacking the slabs to dry. It is something that can be done when the other problem is fixed. Apart from the tilting the mill works fine. Thanks to the SIL working off an email i sent him.

On the kerf i agree totally. I intend to slab some of the dryer blackwood to 4 1/2 or even 6 1/2 inches then cut it down with a bandsaw.

The BS will be priced/purchased at the melb WWW show this Saturday. Any suggestions, I think 1.5 to 2 HP minimum. Hope to be under $1500

[BobL]

I wouldn't bother changing anything to allow thinner cuts Calm. IMHO, 30mm would be the absolute thinnest you would want to cut a slab with a chainsaw. In my experience, you are going to get at least some movement, even from dry logs, and by the time you get rid of the chain grooves from the surface, you'll have precious little left. Personally, I wouldn't slab anything less than 40mm and would aim at resawing with a bandsaw later to reduce waste - chainsaws have a horrible big kerf :o

I agree although sometimes (rarely) if you have a crappy surface on a slab you may just want to remove half an inch or so. Of course you can always add a couple of rails on the top to make the difference. My rails are 38 mm thick and I've been milling at 82, 62 or 50 mm so my smallest depth settings with rails are 88mm.

[Burnsy]

Here are some photos of my mill and the problem i have tried to explain

1 The mill on the saw
2 A closer shot of the mounting
3 The gap when tilted oneway as far as it will allow
4 The clearance between the 2 peices of tube. Some of my problem is that the outer sleeve is only about 4" long, whereas a longer one will allow less movement.
5 This is the preferred angle to have the uprights as the clamp bolt will push the tube into a corner and eliminate any tilting movement. (The clamp bolt needs to be on a "corner" of the upright)

Another problem with my design that i will change is the thinnest i can cut is about 30 mm because the sleeve slides down and sits on the top of the clamp.

I intend to change mine so that it can cut 20mm and also have no tilting action. I might pinch your design and incorporate a thread adjuster.:2tsup::D

I am pretty sure I don't have that problem but now I see how bad yours is I will have to check. It is interesting that the comercially sold mills I have seen also have the uprights mounted as you are suggesting. I was wondering why they did this, seems you have answered this for me.

Go for the thread adjuster, it makes things real easy, you could still rotate your uprights and have a grub screw to lock it off if you wanted, this would probably be a good idea and I may do it in the future. At first I had plans to add some little winder on top of the rod to adjust it with but I think it is just as easy to wack a ring spanner on it and that way there is no winder to get in the way.

[Burnsy]

12 months on and I finally found reason and time to fire up the mill again. I am still clueless at sharpening so it was slow going but the sheoak I opened up is beautiful. Can't wait to take the next cut tomorrow so that I can see the flame in it's true glory along the entire length:2tsup:

[BobL]

12 months on and I finally found reason and time to fire up the mill again. I am still clueless at sharpening so it was slow going but the sheoak I opened up is beautiful. Can't wait to take the next cut tomorrow so that I can see the flame in it's true glory along the entire length:2tsup:


Nice work Mike.

Are you using a file guide? If not I recommend using one - with milling getting no-glint edge on the top plate is critical to cutting speed. This is quite hard to do by Hand filing with just a file. I have several - one for each file size.

Also have you checked your rakers. According to the Carlton Document one of the critical things about rakers is to maintain a constant angle at which the cutting edge of the cutter attacks the wood.

A 0.025" raker setting for a new chain (0.25" gullet width) this corresponds to a cutting attack angle of ~6º
The top cutter shows what the situation is for a new cutter. The bottom one shows what happens as the gullet is opened up with sharpening
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=87443&stc=1&d=1225537068

To maintain that 6º angle, as the gullet gets wider the rakers should be dropped more than 0.025".

Here is a (table in inches) that shows gullet width and raker height setting for 3/8 standard chain.

Gullet Raker setting in Inches.
new 0.025
0.250 0.026
0.300 0.032
0.350 0.037
0.400 0.042
0.450 0.048
0.500 0.053
0.550 0.058

Whatever the case it's a lot more than 0.025"!

If you use the carlton file-o-plate it will automatically take this into account for any other gullet width but it does not happen with most other depth gauge tool.

BTW, the EXCEL formula to calculate this for any gullet width is TAN(6*PI()/180)*gullet width.

Cheers
Bob

[Burnsy]

Nice work Mike.

Are you using a file guide? If not I recommend using one - with milling getting no-glint edge on the top plate is critical to cutting speed. This is quite hard to do by Hand filing with just a file.

Also have you checked your rakers. According to the Carlton Document one of the critical things about rakers is to maintain a constant angle at which the cutting edge of the cutter attacks the wood.

A 0.025" raker setting for a new chain (0.25" gullet width) this corresponds to a cutting attack angle of ~6º
The top cutter shows what the situation is for a new cutter. The bottom one shows what happens as the gullet is opened up with sharpening
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=87443&stc=1&d=1225537068

To maintain that 6º angle, as the gullet gets wider the rakers should be dropped more than 0.025".

Here is a (table in inches) that shows gullet width and raker height setting for 3/8 standard chain.

Gullet Raker setting in Inches.
new 0.025
0.250 0.026
0.300 0.032
0.350 0.037
0.400 0.042
0.450 0.048
0.500 0.053
0.550 0.058

Whatever the case it's a lot more than 0.025"!

If you use the carlton file-o-plate it will automatically take this into account for any other gullet width but it does not happen with most other depth gauge tool.

BTW, the EXCEL formula to calculate this for any gullet width is TAN(6*PI()/180)*gullet width.

Cheers
Bob

You lost me after have you got a file guide:wink: I do have an oregon guide that I bought off ebay, but no instructions and could not work it out. I really need to arrange a visit to yours truely as I said I was going to do this time last year, still have the PM with your phone number in it awaiting my getting organised:o

Cheers,
Mike

[BobL]

You lost me after have you got a file guide:wink: I do have an oregon guide that I bought off ebay, but no instructions and could not work it out. I really need to arrange a visit to yours truely as I said I was going to do this time last year, still have the PM with your phone number in it awaiting my getting organised:o

Cheers,
Mike

No worries Mike - glad to be able to help. Drop by any time.

[Burnsy]

Cut the first slab off the sheoak this afternoon, don't think I will cut the next one until I have visited Bob for some sharpening tips:- Couldn't wait to see what it really looked like so I jointed and thicknessed it before setting it aside to start drying. Beautiful grain and there is enough for another the same out of the log, could be a hall table top in it:2tsup:. It is already starting to split on the side I cut yesterday, anyone got any tips to help stop this, I thought maybe I should paint the whole thing?

[BobL]

Cut the first slab off the sheoak this afternoon, don't think I will cut the next one until I have visited Bob for some sharpening tips:- Couldn't wait to see what it really looked like so I jointed and thicknessed it before setting it aside to start drying. Beautiful grain and there is enough for another the same out of the log, could be a hall table top in it:2tsup:. It is already starting to split on the side I cut yesterday, anyone got any tips to help stop this, I thought maybe I should paint the whole thing?

There's nothing you can do to stop the splitting Mike. If its not too bad you can fill it. Sheoak should really be split into quarters and left to dry before resawing but that way you can's get slabs as wide as the log :(

Come and see me anytime about the sharpening.

[Burnsy]

There's nothing you can do to stop the splitting Mike. If its not too bad you can fill it. Sheoak should really be split into quarters and left to dry before resawing but that way you can's get slabs as wide as the log :(

Come and see me anytime about the sharpening.

I am not fussed about the slabs so much as I won't be using the natural edge. Do you think it would reduce the splitting if I ripped the slab down the middle now?

What times/days suit best for sharpening, maybe one day after work if that suits you, I need to drop a block plane off to wooden mechanic in South Perth so maybe I can kill two birds with one stone.

Cheers,
Mike

[BobL]

I am not fussed about the slabs so much as I won't be using the natural edge. Do you think it would reduce the splitting if I ripped the slab down the middle now?

Ripping down the middle will relieve some tension in the wood but will it stop the splitting - I don't know.


What times/days suit best for sharpening, maybe one day after work if that suits you, I need to drop a block plane off to wooden mechanic in South Perth so maybe I can kill two birds with one stone.

I'll PM you about this.

Cheers

[Sigidi]

Burnsy, take a look at BOB's file mod for square files. Using one of these off the shelf is a great way to be consistent with sharpening, epecially for slabbing chains

[Burnsy]

Burnsy, take a look at BOB's file mod for square files. Using one of these off the shelf is a great way to be consistent with sharpening, epecially for slabbing chains

Will have a look when I meet with him Monday. The sheoak is still sitting outside waiting for a sharp chain to finish it, thankfully it has been cool and raining not scorching so it has not split!

[BobL]

Burnsy, take a look at BOB's file mod for square files. Using one of these off the shelf is a great way to be consistent with sharpening, epecially for slabbing chains

Yep - I will demo a regular one for him - and a regular file guide as well.

[Sigidi]

good on ya BOB, you're a legend:)

[BobL]

good on ya BOB, you're a legend:)

Cheers Sidgi!

Burnsy did come around and I think I sorted his CS issues. Nice fella - we chewed the fat over mills etc and then went onto the WA fine WW Assoc meet and watched Derek Cohen bedazzle them with his hand tools - Derelkdid a couple of demos on the run including a sliding dovetail - very impressive. All in all a good evening - just gets me behind on my chain filing - speaking of filing I better go back to the shed and finish this chain or maybe fiddle a bit with the 066!

[Burnsy]

Cheers Sidgi!

Burnsy did come around and I think I sorted his CS issues. Nice fella....

geez, thanks for noticing mate:- and yes thankyou very much, all sharpening issues are now dealt with. I now understand the science behind it and can happily sharpen without the fancy oregon jig I bought:doh:

Burnsy