Leigh Cutters Too Short

[Carry Pine]

I'm happy to report that my first attempt with the Leigh jig was a success and I'm happy with the result. However, I would like some 'expert' opinion on the following:

Given that I am using a Makita router and have purchased all the correct bushes and am using only cutters and collet reducer supplied by Leigh:

The dovetail cutter supplied is a ba%$#ard to fit. Pushed all the way into the collet (recommended) it is only just long enough to cut the tails in 18-19mm timber. I have the 2-spanner system to tighten the collet and despite using a fair amount of strength tightening it, the dovetail cutter became loose twice and the pin cutter once.
When tightened, the collet reducer extends past the main collet 3-4mm and I wonder if the collet reducer should be cut down?
When I helped a mate with his D16 today I just couldn't get the length on the tail cutter and, at one stage the collet reducer was rubbing on the bush guide (sparks!!!).
One answer is to allow the cutter to sit proud of the bottom of the collet but this is not recommended by Leigh. I am also worried about the cutter vibrating loose again. Note: I have never had a router bit vibrate loose on that router in 10+ years.
Another solution is to purchase cutters (other than standard Leigh) which I notice are all longer than standard Leigh cutters.

So, my experience can't be the only one around. Any ideas, please?


Carry Pine

[mat]

Carry

A couple of thoughts. If the cutter bottoms out in the collet then vibration can cause loosening. There should always be a gap at the bottom of the collet. When you say that the bit is fully inserted how do you assess this. Are you only allowing the section where the carbide starts to be proud of the collet?

Another tip re loosening is to mate a slot in the collet with a slot on the reducer to allow better tightening.

[mat]

Carry

I think you are taking the "insert router cutter as deeply as possible" to literally. You need to have enough depth to work with ie adjustment and adequate clearance from the router base/guidebush etc and enough clearance outside the guidebush so it doesn't cut into the guidebush when raised.

[Carry Pine]

A couple of thoughts. If the cutter bottoms out in the collet then vibration can cause loosening. There should always be a gap at the bottom of the collet.
Just following book instructions on that one (leigh)

When you say that the bit is fully inserted how do you assess this.
I push it with my finger till it hits the bottom of the collet (with the collet loosened).

Are you only allowing the section where the carbide starts to be proud of the collet?

Yes, the cutter only just clears the 'fingers'. With my router i could get a maximum depth of 18mm cut today.

Another tip re loosening is to mate a slot in the collet with a slot on the reducer to allow better tightening.

This is what I think too - fidling around with the collet reducer. 3-4 mm is wasted anyway poking out the end of the collet. But I wanted other people's experiences.

Thanks mat,

CP

[Cruzi]

I think you are taking the "insert router cutter as deeply as possible" to literally.

Agreed, it does not say push bit in until it bottoms out, it means put in as far as you can to still get the depth of cut you need. Look at the pictures, there is a gap above the bit......

Can't say that the bits have moved either, but the reducer fits nicely into my collet (different brand router)

[John Saxton]

Any router bit inserted within the collet should always be withdrawn so that it is 2MM approx away from the spindle.
This is good advice given from all books pertaining to routing,whish has been stated ,to bottom out the bit will only cause it to loosen thru vibration & being in contact with the drive spindle of the router.

A good idea is to bottom out the bit ..mark the bit where it meets the collet then withdraw it a couple of millimetres and tighten.

Cheers:)

[Carry Pine]

[quote=John Saxton;599596]Any router bit inserted within the collet should always be withdrawn so that it is 2MM approx away from the spindle.
This is good advice given from all books pertaining to routing,whish has been stated ,to bottom out the bit will only cause it to loosen thru vibration & being in contact with the drive spindle of the router.

A good idea is to bottom out the bit ..mark the bit where it meets the collet then withdraw it a couple of millimetres and tighten.

Thanks, John. I've always followed that practice.
To continue.... I quote the manual and attach scanned photo from manual:
'When fitting a bit to the router (1), always fit the bit shank as deeply into the collet(2) as possible. Always rout with the collet as close to the guidebush as possible. Usually you will not be able to get the collet wrench(3) securely on the collet nut with the collet at its optimum low position, so fit the bit into the colet so that the remaining travel(40 between the collet and the guidebush(50 will let the bit reach the required depth of cut(6). ( bold print as appears in manual).

Note the length of the collet adapter is approx 4mm proud of the collet. Should collet adapters also be 2mm away from the spindle, John. If so, fitting the dovetail cutter would almost be impossible.

You can see my annotations on the diagram showing measurements. With my calculations, a 65mm long Leigh dovetail bit would only be allowed to be 17mm into the collet of the router (21mm into the collet adapter). That must be unsafe!

I think the answer must be to purchase longer bits, but I can't believe Leigh hasn't been aware of the problem before this.

Thank you for your patience with a beginner.

Carry Pine

[mat]

Carry

Thinking about it I work backwards. Insert the router bit leaving clearance from the guidebush (allowing for fine adjustment). This is especially important for the dovetail bits. For a plunge router the router needs to be fully depressed or allowing just enough clearance for the collet above the guidebush. (again allow for some fine adjustment)

As suggested by Leigh always hand turn the collet (with power plug disconnected) to check for any fowling.

Whatever is left in the collet is where it is tightened for me.

[mat]

Carry

I wrote my last post before seeing yours immediately above.

Does your collet fit inside the top of the guidebush or does it have to stay above? You may be losing some height here.

Which guidebush are you using? I use a Makita 3612 and use the brass two piece guidebush. The collet will run inside the top section of the guidebush.
I only need one spanner to tighten as the 3612 has a spindle lock. The height of the hex on the spindle also allows tightening with the collet right down in the guidebush.

[mat]

The collar of the reducer should sit neatly on top of the collet. If you have a gap there is something wrong there.

You haven't left the plastic spacer in the collet that Makita provide for inverted use have you??

Alternatively you may need to loosen the collet further before inserting the collet reducer to get it sitting fully down on the collet.

[Carry Pine]

[quote=mat;599788]Carry


Does your collet fit inside the top of the guidebush or does it have to stay above? You may be losing some height here.


See diagram. Collet reducer (which sits proud of collet 4mm) hits top of guidebush (source of sparks at max depth).

Measure 17mm and realise that is all that is inside the collet - it can't be right.

[mat]

20mm between the collet and top of the guidebush is way too much. If your collet does not run inside the top of the guidebush I suggest you get an alternate guidebush arrangement if you can with the screw on (screw at each end) guidebush.

Are you using the 711TP brass two piece guidebush?

[lesmeyer]

Mr Pine and others. The first time I used the D1600 on loan from CT, I used the small Triton router and could not get full depth of cutting. This is due to the design on the Triton and its guide bush system. You lose some depth because of the plate design. I agree that a slightly longer shank on the cutter would be great. I have used my Makita fixed base 3601B router and I have too much depth available due to a better design. I removed the phenolic plate on the Makita and replaced with a perspex one that is machined to accept the CT brass bushings (similar to the 711TP and 716TP from Leigh). A little beaut of a setup.
I will be using the big 1/2" cutters with the triton as the shanks on these are pretty good.
Regards
Les

[Carry Pine]

The collar of the reducer should sit neatly on top of the collet. If you have a gap there is something wrong there.


Length of reducer = 32mm depth of Makita collet = 28mm

You haven't left the plastic spacer in the collet that Makita provide for inverted use have you??

No!

Alternatively you may need to loosen the collet further before inserting the collet reducer to get it sitting fully down on the collet.

Yes but as you tighten it, it becomes 4mm proud. (as explained above)

CP

[Carry Pine]

Carry




Which guidebush are you using? I use a Makita 3612 and use the brass two piece guidebush. The collet will run inside the top section of the guidebush.
I only need one spanner to tighten as the 3612 has a spindle lock. The height of the hex on the spindle also allows tightening with the collet right down in the guidebush.

I have the Makita 3600 (2 spanner job) and have the 703 adapter and the 711 7/16 outside dia guidebush. There is an optional 711TP guidebush with nut. Maybe that's what I need.

I get that the 711TP guidebush screws into the nut but how is the nut attached to the router?

Carry Pine

[Carry Pine]

Mr Pine and others. The first time I used the D1600 on loan from CT, I used the small Triton router and could not get full depth of cutting. This is due to the design on the Triton and its guide bush system. You lose some depth because of the plate design. I agree that a slightly longer shank on the cutter would be great. I have used my Makita fixed base 3601B router and I have too much depth available due to a better design. I removed the phenolic plate on the Makita and replaced with a perspex one that is machined to accept the CT brass bushings (similar to the 711TP and 716TP from Leigh). A little beaut of a setup.
I will be using the big 1/2" cutters with the triton as the shanks on these are pretty good.
Regards
Les


After I get my Leigh jig operating to my satisfaction, the next job will be to get my mate's Triton router working with his D16. He has already had dealings with one well known company which convinced him he really needed a different router to work the Leigh which they sold him. He has since sent the router back (awaiting refund!).

I'm very interested in this 711TP guidebush which may be the answer for me. Hope mat has some news for me.

When you say you will be using the 1/2in cutters (no Leigh collet reducer!!!) they only come in a small number of sizes don't they? or are you using the blind dovetail cutters for through dovetails?
I notice that those blind dovetail cutters are even shorter than the 80-8 which I have been using. But not in the CMT range- all longer than Leigh cutters.

Carry Pine

[mat]

The 711TP (two piece) is not going to make your situation any better as it protrudes further above the router base. The threaded part goes into the hole from below and a threaded ring screws on from the top and secures the guidebush.

With your current setup what actually protrudes upwards from the guidebush/adapter setup if anything? Your picture shows the 711TP.

[mat]

Carry

If you unscrew the 711 guidebush from the 703 you will see a bit circular hole with a pin on one edge. The 711TP fits neatly into that hole and is stopped rotating by the pin which matches up to an indentation in the 711TP

The 711TP fits into the 703 like a nut and bolt. One part from under with a collar and the ring (nut) from above.

[lesmeyer]

The cutters with the 1/2" shanks - there is only 2 dovetails and 2 straight cutters. The are used for the larger joints in the timber that is thicker. The #90 dovetail is used for depths of 16mm to 25mm and the #100 has a depth range of 25 to 31mm. Thus the #90 does have some overlap. The straight cutter used with the #90 dt is the #160 which is a standard 1/2" shank and cutting size. I have an ONSRUD 1/2" upcut spiral that I will be using.
I do realise that the whole story about what is required and what can be done is not always presented upfront. Especially at the shops where one can purchase the jigs. I did do much research on the Leigh website before purchasing and I must say that all the info is very clear on their website.
Hope this helps.
Les

[Carry Pine]

Thank you les and mat for your swift replies. I have decided to cut 3mm off the Leigh collet reducer and see how I go.

I'm on holidays for a week so don't think me rude if you don't see any posts for a while.

Cheers,

Carry Pine

[mat]

Carry

Consider buying a McJing collet reducer, they are shorter and don't have a collar. That should save you 4mm or so.

I had a look at the 703/711 setup vs 703/711TP setup. You can save at least 2mm there IF the collet fits inside the 711TP as it does with the Makita 3612.

If you want me to measure the inside diameter of the 711TP let me know.

[rmartens]

Hi Carry.
Yes I had simular troubles with my leighs jig on a 3612b makita router 1500 watt.
I tightened the bits real tight and I noticed the bits slipping down making. So after each dovetail cut I stopped the machine. pulled out the chord and retightened. I thought this is not good so I went to the machine shop and replaced the inside parts of the router. There are better collets at carbitect I think its called carbitect?(carbitools?) Where you can get better sleaves and not the unusual size suited for the leighs. But I had simular troubles like you when you need a little bit extra length.
Remember when you cut dovetail about 20mm you use a 10 degree dovetail bit and when you cut over you use an 8 degree bit they are longer so htis could be your problem. But when I was doing through dovetail I had to slightly pull the bit out I dont like doing this but I used me festool for the straight bit nd used the makita for the dovetail.
To play it safe replace all your internal parts of your router as the people at the machinery said your bit should not slip but like I said before mine slipped too and thats not good.

[Munga]

I had the same problem with my Hitachi cut 4mm of the collet and problem fixed.
I've since bought a Triton MOF001 specifically to use with the Leigh but am finding it very hard to obtain the insert to suit.

Arch.

[Carry Pine]

Thank you martens and munga. I though I was alone there for a while. Now that I'm back from hols, My first option is to cut the collet reducer down.
Stay tuned for the result.

But with my mates Triton, I think it is going to be a nightmare!

Carry Pine

[Carry Pine]

I had a request regarding my progress with the leigh jig and instead of answering it for an individual, thought it may be of some use for others.

1) Using the supplied cutters for through dovetails on 19mm timber. My experience was:
-don't push the cutter all the way into the collet (ever);
-the guidebush supplied for my Makita from Leigh worked OK;
-the collet reducer needed to be cut down in length.
After that all worked well. very happy

2) After purchasing the CMT box of Leigh cutters to use on 25mm timber. No need for collet reducer. makita guidebush not available for this size (unless you wait forever). Purchased the set of Triton guidebushes ($49) and decided to do it on the Triton.
-these guidebushes needed to be cut down
All worked well. Very happy.

Hope this helps someone out there.

Carry Pine

[Jasey]

Carry,

To add to your post I also had issues with the Leigh bit slipping in the leigh collet reducer. Seemed to have solved it when I followed a suggestion to make sure the lines on the reducer were aligned with the lines on the collett. May just be luck but that seems to have helped the grip. Also tighten like buggery.

The E-bush fits the 1400w Triton.

The depth of cut does seem to be an issue are the CMT bits longer? Might have to get some.

[Carry Pine]

Jasey,

CMT bits look to be the same length. I used the big Triton (forgot to say that) on the 25mm stock. Worked fine.

Graham