Sensitive Subject

[Bloubull]

Hi All

While watching TV a very interesting documentry came up about man made forests and how they are damaging the environment as they are not indigenous to that specific area. But the most noticeable point made is the large amout of wood being consumed in the world today and how certain areas of the world are experiencing a shortage of wood. Now my questions are 1. Are we as woodworkers adding to the world’s wood and eco crisis or not? 2. What can we do to help the world crisis? Regards Bloubull

[wheelinround]

[quote=Bloubull;601280]Hi All

While watching TV a very interesting documentry came up about man made forests and how they are damaging the environment as they are not indigenous to that specific area. But the most noticeable point made is the large amout of wood being consumed in the world today and how certain areas of the world are experiencing a shortage of wood. Now my questions are

1. Are we as woodworkers adding to the world’s wood and eco crisis or not?:p
2. What can we do to help the world crisis?:p
:p:p

Regards:p:p
:p:p
Bloubull/quote]


Bloubull a can of worms you have opened here.

1 I believe that any use of tree's causes the crisis, the biggest part of it would be woodchip mills and making of particle board (not recyclable at all):no::~ Great good wood forests are disappearing to make this shyte ( I do use it presently making a laundy cupboard.) Then again timber deteriates naturally regenerates into other things like mulch and over time coal, diamonds etc.

2 I use as much old timber, recycled pick up stuff people place out for clean up or dump branch and tree off cuts. Much would go to tips be turned to ash in fires etc other wise.
Planting tree's is a great idea but some wally here in Australia many years ago decided that European forest planting had to stop, natives were to be the source of wood. Guy needs a good kick up the pants.
We seem to be favouring the Plain Tree everywhere for council planting fast growing but it brings with it the flamin scrurge of birds the Indian Noisy Minor.
Vast tracks of Pine forest plantation grow here due to their fast groth rate, but the world needs more various timbers.

[pawnhead]

1 I believe that any use of tree's causes the crisis, the biggest part of it would be woodchip mills and making of particle board (not recyclable at all):no::~ Great good wood forests are disappearing to make this shyte ( I do use it presently making a laundy cupboard.) Then again timber deteriates naturally regenerates into other things like mulch and over time coal, diamonds etc.I'd say that use of particle board would be the best form of timber conservation. Virtually nothing gets tossed out, otherwise we'd be laying solid timber under our carpet, and using plywood for our cupboards, then tossing out all the branches and useless bits.

I reckon one of the biggest culprits would be newspapers, phone books and junk mail. It's increased exponentially over the years. Most people have the internet nowadays, and I can look up the phone book or read my local rag online, and who would actually ask for junk mail if they had the option?
The default setting should be 'opt in', not 'opt out'. If you want a phone book, local paper, or junk mail then put a sign on your letterbox asking for it, and if it's not there then it should be illegal to dump unsolicited pulp in your mailbox.

Most people, like me, are too lazy to put up a sign saying 'no junk mail', and besides, I do take advantage of the odd special from Dick Smith, KFC, Dominos Pizza, but if junk mail were outlawed, then they'd advertise their specials in some other way (Billboards, TV, radio, etc), and they'd certainly save a lot of trees.

I don't know about you guys, but the amount of crap that lands in my mailbox every day is unbelievable!

[Andy Mac]

Someone I was talking to yesterday reckoned that much the woodchip or pulp that goes from here to Japan ends up as sushi boxes and other fast food containers.:((
My take on it: I think plantations of faster growing trees like exotic pines, Sydney blue gum or whatever should be encouraged, but not at the expense of native forests, and they should feed producers of ply and MDF etc. Native forests should only be logged selectively, for construction grade or high end timber use, NOT pulp or chips. If they aren't "high quality" leave the bloody stuff alone, stands of original forest are an asset for all of us.
Paper for normal use should come from recycling; forestry waste; or fibre crops like hemp, like it used to be. The best quality paper, ie. art printing, comes from cotton rag. Did anyone see last weeks 'Difference of Opinion' on Auntie? I was listening to the farming advocate and quite on his side, untill he dsimissed the audience question about hemp as a fibre option, out of hand! With a sneer, he said something about the Market with a capital M will take care of that (nonsense, he wanted to say). I took offence simply because the market hasn't had a real open and unhindered chance to look at hemp as an alternative, not since DuPont. Why would a paper making mill choose to undertake a short term test if there is no garanteed long term supply? A token gesture to say "yep we tried it now shut up and let us go back to pulping forests so we can make a sh*t load of money without changing."
Really gets my goat up I'm afraid, and Bloubull you got me going!:D But it is a topic woodworkers should seriously think about.

Cheers,

[BobL]

I don't know about you guys, but the amount of crap that lands in my mailbox every day is unbelievable!

Yep agree 100%.

My conscience is relatively clear on this matter as I rarely buy any timber, I use either scavenge it or mill my own from stuff coming out of suburban areas that would go for mulch or firewood.

What also drives this problem is our increasing consumerist society. Stuff is not built to last and to be incompatible with the latest systems etc. TVs used to last 20 years now they last 5, 5 year old computers don't work with new software, furniture used to last 100's of years now it lasts 5-7 years, even our houses are being shabilliy. This way a lot of timber ends up in landfill. It simply can't last.

[pawnhead]

I was listening to the farming advocate and quite on his side, untill he dsimissed the audience question about hemp as a fibre option, out of hand! With a sneer, he said something about the Market with a capital M will take care of that (nonsense, he wanted to say). I took offence simply because the market hasn't had a real open and unhindered chance to look at hemp as an alternative, not since DuPont.I believe that companies are free to grow industrial hemp if they can make a profit out of it. The greeny, pot heads would love you to believe that it's a panacea for all our woes, but the fact is that there are many producers of industrial hemp in the world, and in many cases it's a viable alternative to pulping trees, but unless you want to make it mandatory, and pay more for the product, then it's best to let the market sort out such things.

Of course it would be lovely if we got all our energy from windmills and solar cells as well, but reality and economics don't always conform to our dreams.

[Capt. Zero]

Interesting topic, and timely too. I've recently been doing a lot of thinking about my wood use, it's source, and whether some of the species we like to use are being managed at the source, or are just being pillaged from virgin third world forests and sold to ready, unquestioning consumers.
I've been making some boxes recently out of some offcuts of exotics I got a good deal on. I purchased on impulse, but later began to think about it.
Ran across a site a few days later that had some information on the subject (wish I had bookmarked). I was suprised at how little was actually known about the real supplies world wide and how little amount of professional management is going on. I know I need to research more before I do any more 'exotics' buying.
Without checking into woods I haven't bought or worked with, it was worth noting that almost every wood I had purchased that day was subject to a certain amount of concern to foresters worldwide; namely "purple heart, jatoba, African mahagony and lacewood". The upshot is, until I know more, I'll be sticking to either recycled wood or North American woods that I know are being managed.
If anyone comes up with some good locations of more information on this subject please post and my promise is to do the same.

[Sonab]

I'd say that use of particle board would be the best form of timber conservation. Virtually nothing gets tossed out, otherwise we'd be laying solid timber under our carpet, and using plywood for our cupboards, then tossing out all the branches and useless bits.


I question wether this is valid; the argument that chipping uses the whole tree is often trotted out in these situations.
The logs I see going to the Geelong chippers do not look like they are branches or useless bits, would someone who has worked in the industry tell me if branches are in fact chipped.
As far as I can see use of branches would cost more, and reduce the quality of the chips.
Particle board when compared to solid timber has a much shorter life, this means that the carbon in a whole tree could be released within 30 years (I am guessing here so please correct me if there is any data on this)

[SilentButDeadly]

I question wether this is valid; the argument that chipping uses the whole tree is often trotted out in these situations.
The logs I see going to the Geelong chippers do not look like they are branches or useless bits, would someone who has worked in the industry tell me if branches are in fact chipped.
As far as I can see use of branches would cost more, and reduce the quality of the chips.
Particle board when compared to solid timber has a much shorter life, this means that the carbon in a whole tree could be released within 30 years (I am guessing here so please correct me if there is any data on this)

In the case of pine, particle board and MDF are made from whole trees....the trees selected for this purpose are graded as they are cut by a very expensive machine on the end of an excavator - if they aren't of appropriate size or shape for whole timber (like that used for house frames) then they go to pieces...the contractors don't like to do this as the logs are worth less for chip than for entire.

I would imagine the same principle applies for plantation blue gum.

All pine branches are stripped on-site and remain there, usually to be burnt

[SilentButDeadly]

1. Are we as woodworkers adding to the world’s wood and eco crisis or not?
2. What can we do to help the world crisis?


1. Of course. As a consumer of resources you (as do we all) bear responsibility for your share - wether for woodworking or toilet paper.

2. Start with "Refuse. Reduce. Recycle." and work your way down from there. The main thing is to understand where your wood comes from - regardless of the form in which it enters your little world. Look for products derived from well managed timber resources that are the shortest possible distance from you.

[Geebung]

again timber deteriates naturally regenerates into other things like mulch and over time coal, diamonds etc.


While timber does end up as coal it is not a source for diamonds. The carbon in diamonds is a different isotope of carbon than that derived from plant material. In fact the carbon is derived from micro-organisms that have been caught up in oceanic crust (so the theory goes). Oceanic crust gets fed back into the interior of the earth and as kimberlites (super fast magmas that shoot up from the earth's interior) make their way to the surface pick up this carbon to form diamonds.

Now...what were we talking about? Oh yes, adding to the planet's woes. Linked in with deforestation and inappropriate use of our timber resources is the over dependency on fossil fuels....but that is probably another thread in itself.

I would really like to hear the perspective of people that work in the timber industry as it can be emotive to say the least.

And another thing, has Malcolm Turnball made his last decision as Environment Minister by giving the go ahead to a pulp mill in Tassie on the platform of securing jobs for the future (how long is that future by the way)? It was interesting to see the meek response from Peter Garrett - previously he was quite polarised on issues regarding the environment (prior to him becoming a politician mind) - now he is just towing the party line...weak.:no:

So just what are the facts? Sometimes emotion gets in the way, just as with the mining industry the timber industry can be made out to be evil because they are chopping down trees. Let's talk facts...or at least see some and make some informed decisions...in the meantime I will continue to hoard all of my offcuts in the deluded sense that I may actually use them for something in the future - rather that than it going to land fill (and don't get me started on that!).

[Sebastiaan56]

Here are some though provoking links

http://www.forest-network.org/GoodWoodGuide/GoodWoodGuide.htm

Its been an issue with certain musicians for a long time http://www.gearwire.com/bob-taylor-ecological-wood.html

Buy local, recycle and avoid Indonesian and Malaysian timbers. There are certification programs in place but stamping out the corruption is difficult http://borneoproject.org/article.php?list=type&type=22

As these resources get more scarce prices will go up, and up. But oil will keep going up as well so they should be out of the amateurs reach in the next 10-20 years. I was going to start a thread on the pulpmill issue as it is very related, still might,

[Geebung]

Buy local, recycle and avoid Indonesian and Malaysian timbers. There are certification programs in place but stamping out the corruption is difficult http://borneoproject.org/article.php?list=type&type=22


I saw a lot of illegal logging going on while working in Borneo - very depressing.

I also saw a lot of legal deforestation to make way for palm oil plantations - just as depressing.

[astrid]

once or twice a week i get a call from a prospective client asking me to repair or restor some peice of crap that theyve bought cheap.
my usual reply is that poory seasoned mahogany is a waste of money and unrepairable and you get what you pay for.
I then direct them to one of the many reasonably priced second hand/antique wharehouses where they can buy 4-6 solid 1920s chairs for $600 and get them restored for $800.
As woodworkers we have a responsibility to put this message out into the broader community. or the price of good timber and the environment will be completly out of the reach of ordenary bods.
I havent had to buy more than $50 of timber in the last year, I pick it up on the hard rubbish or swap with friends or make do with what I've got.

astrid

[rhancock]

I think forumites are helping, in that they encourage others to value timber products, rather than treat them as commodities to be changed as soon as some tv show decides they're out of date.

As for chipboard, overriding the arguments about whether you're using the whole tree or not are three larger questions:

Is it renewable timber? ie, can the tree be regrown within the lifespan of the product - so can the trees used to make chipboard be regrown within the 10 years or so the product will last (If Gunns are cutting down 100+ year old trees, that's not sustainable, but if you're making a wardrobe you expect to last 200 years, then 100 year old trees are fine, as long as they're re planted)

How far has the timber been transported? If it's come half way around the world on a belching container ship, it doesn't matter what its made from.

Are the materials used reusable or recyclable after their current role is finished? How many of you have old solid timber kitchen cabinets / furniture on its 3rd or more life as storage in your sheds and garages? How many chipboard kitchen cupboards make it so far?

[wheelinround]

Chipboard as floorig compared to T&G:doh: I'd take T&G outlasts out wares and would reduce the need for replacing the chipboard.

I have lived in a place with chipboard flooring it wasn't even 7 yrs old and warped buckled and just natural moisture had dameged it so much when the owner moved in he had to rip it all up and replace it.

You can't use chipboard for anything else after its initial use...........well I don't know of anything, you can't reshape it, turn it, recyle it in anyway. Due to the glues you shouldn't burn it, shavings are usless can't use them for smoking food.

Why do we have to clear forests to plant new tree's??
Farmers are doing this world wide to plant crops, a sustainable share forest should be planted or left on every farm.

Some farmers have taken this on, one fellow in Victoria has planted a variety of evey tree he can get a hold of on his generational property timbers from all around the world.

[pawnhead]

A little bit of Googling revealed this, although it is unreferenced (could be BS):

Particleboard and other manufactured boards have had a very positive impact on timber resources, stemming almost entirely from the use of recycled materials. Seventy-five percent of particleboard manufactured in Canada and the US is constructed entirely from recycled materials. The remaining twenty-five percent of boards are constructed partially from recycled material and partially from virgin wood. These mixed panels have an average recycled content of sixty-six percent. This is still significantly more resource efficient than solid wood, even when considering that in many cases these panels will be covered with a thin veneer of virgin wood.

Europe consumes around 45 million cubic metres of particleboard and MDF every year. If solid wood were used instead of these manufactured boards, an enormous burden would be placed on the environment. It lessens the need for trees to be felled, while at the same time reducing waste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_board
Modern particle board is now made primarily by combining discarded wood shavings, chips and sawdust with a strong resin and pressing the mixture into serviceable boards and planks.

The process of making particle board begins with real wood. Most particle board manufacturers use waste wood products collected from commercial woodworking factories, although some virgin wood may be used as well.
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-is-particle-board-made.htmAnd from an Australian manufacturer:
Brimsboard is a close textured, high moisture resistant (HMR) veneered particleboard, faced with premium quality wood veneers. Qualboard is the same product but faced with commercial quality wood veneer. The board is manufactured exclusively from plantation grown Hoop Pine.
http://www.brims.com.au/brochure.htm

[Capt. Zero]

Thanx for the links Sebastiaan56, just what I was looking for!

[Chris Parks]

My experience with chipboard flooring is all good. I have had it on the floor of my garage for about 18 years, it was the first generation of waterproof flooring and it has lasted well with no signs of it needing replacing. I would use it again with no qualms whatsoever. I put a two pack epoxy on it but I don't know what type.

[matildasmate]

I saw a lot of illegal logging going on while working in Borneo - very depressing.

I also saw a lot of legal deforestation to make way for palm oil plantations - just as depressing.
I was just reading your post about oil plantation's . Paper company's in Australia are taking a real hiding in Australia at the moment , due mainly to the fact that Woolworth's is now selling there own brand of paper , the Woolworth's select brand , imported from Indonesia from the same criminal's that are clearing the jungle's , for so called oil plantation's and was advertised as enviromently friendly , until they got caught , they then took all their brand of the shelve's , put sticker's over the offending statement's , then put them straight back on the shelve's . Cheer's MM This is just the tip of the iceberg.