First Lathe?

[Pete F]

I've been looking at lathes for some time now and was thinking of this one http://cgi.ebay.com.au/22-x10-QUICK-CHANGE-GEARBOX-METAL-LATHE-W-STAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ250178558450QQihZ015QQcategoryZ105827QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on this machine? This will be my first lathe and I have no one specific purpose for it, but would like a machine capable of holding reasonable tolerances once properly set up/tuned. I've dealt with this seller before and found him very good.

[Frank&Earnest]

I have been looking for something similar myself, and will be interested to see what replies you get. I'm surprised that you would not have something similar or better in Sydney, though. The $1500 Chinese lathe seems to be everywhere, if this is badged for an importer in Adelaide you might find there is a much smaller number of people that know this specific one.

[Fossil]

He will probably charge up to $400.00 to freight it to Sydney which makes ths H&F lathe a better deal.
http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/sample_2/home.php

[Pete F]

I asked a couple of years ago ... ok I DID say I have been looking for a while :B The freight from Adelaide to Sydney then was $115 with TNT. I don't think H&F deliver for free and I have no facilities to take a machine that weight myself so it's not a massive difference freight wise.

The nearest H&F machine to this one would be the AL-54B. Like everything there's is a compromise but the e-bay machine has a 3MT tailstock taper which would be good as that's the same as my drill press, and is also almost twice the weight of the AL-54B. The third machine I've been considering is the AL-320G.

Things that I've been looking for are good swing over the bed, decent spindle bore and metric leadscrew. Does that seem to be on the right track? The AL-320G seems a step up in all those areas but by the time a stand is added is considerably more than the e-bay machine for example.

The trouble is I have neither the expertise nor the facility to judge how the quality compares between machines. I notice the AL-320G has tapered bearings, which I presume would give a better finish, but other than that have no idea. I have no interest in buying a toy that I will quickly find the limitations of, but understand it may be better to buy a new Asian machine than a clapped out British/Oz machine.

[cub3]

Have a look at your original site and check out 36" x12 and compare specs.

In a versatile lathe you need to consider

Max spindle bore,this one 1.5"

Lowest spindel speed (this one goes to 50) when i had my business one of my favourite lathes was Ivan (Stanko Import) lowest speed was 8!! very useful when threading up to a shoulder internally or externally. How quick is your reaction speed?

A gap bed enhances the ability to turn larger diameter short length work pieces.

Check out imperial lead screw threads. Can it cut 12 & 13 TPI. One is 1/2" BSW the other is UNC.

Tail stock travel ? The more the better.

The heavier the beast the better (dependant on quality of manufacture)

I could go on for ever, but do sugest, maxamise your capacity.

If possible view and use before purchase.

PM if you like and phone if you like

[Pete F]

Hmmm, thanks for that. I think the 36 x 12 may be just too much lathe though. 1/2 ton lathe starts to introduce a whole world of complications, but agree it looks like a nice lathe. Maybe that will be my next lathe :D

[Sterob]

Hmmm, thanks for that. I think the 36 x 12 may be just too much lathe though. 1/2 ton lathe starts to introduce a whole world of complications, but agree it looks like a nice lathe. Maybe that will be my next lathe :D

I have a 36 x 12 lathe and almost got it off my trailer and positioned correctly by myself, using a soft sling and an engine crane ,I hired. I just needed someone to guide the lathe as I moved it around. Quite easy.
Don't let the 500 kg put you off (unless you can't use an engine crane for some reason.)

[Grahame Collins]

Hi Pete F,
Most of us have had dealings with the Adelaide gentleman and most will say he is reputable.I agree with that too.
I believe you may have over looked some other factors here :


You are dealing with a 30 day warranty in th case of a typical E bay purchase.


If the lathe stuffs up in that period OK ,you can send it back and get what? a refund? or replacement?.
Best of luck in getting a reply to any Email you may send Ozmestore about those topics ,because if you get an answer, will be among the few that have.(see other posts on this topic)


If you do send your lathe back that freight cost is on your account and my opinion is that you will not get a refund on that. Ditto as above, with the email enquiry.( To be fair this freight cost refusal is practice i common across industry-even H &F )


If the beast stuffs up outside the warranty- you fix it ! With what I ask, as nothing is said about availability of any spare parts.Take a look at what the Chinese laughingly refer to as a Manual. Id of parts is fun as these people draw to a different drawing standard and one suppose you need to be Chinese to read and understand it.


If you have done any study on a Chinese lathe the base model is made in a heap of factories with slight variations in models, quality and different levels of free accessories like chucks,face plates steadies, tools, lights, etc



I bent a saddle pinion shaft through my own fault and was lucky to get a spare as I bought from a fairly big retailer. Even so the part took 3 weeks to arrive after some major stuffing around.


If you are not mechanically minded what will you do when you Chinese Ebay lathe kaks itself?

Please take this reply in the way it is intended ,I am just looking at what can happen when things don't go as planned.
Here is a link to my adventures with a Chinese lathe
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=50555&highlight=Chinese+lathe

best of luck

Grahame

[hux]

Hi

Personally I don't like that the leadscrew drives the power feeds as this means the half nuts cop all the wear.

Only other thing I can really offer is that - first lathe? Just get one that will see you through. Buying and selling lathes especially new ones is a great way to reduce your savings.

Good luck with it. I ended up with a belt drive Taiwanese 12x36 out of the local paper for cheap and it works really well. The belts are a PITA but the lathe works great. See Grahame's posts for the downsides of buying Chinese.

[neksmerj]

Dear Pete F,

If this is going to be your first lathe, what about considering a second hand Hercus 9".

Definately not Chinese, and most parts are still available, if you are prepared to hunt around. Whilst old fashioned in style, it's a good size, first class quality, and can be man handled by two with relative ease. I'm still refurbishing mine, so can't comment on ease of use.

There are several on eBay at the moment.

Regards,

Ken

[Grahame Collins]

I"ll second what Ken said.

Believe or not more than a few High schools are getting rid of their Hercus lathes and buying crap -eh! sorry, Chinese lathes. In the late 60's and early 70's thats all schools purchased. Hercus also made a little Bridgeport like mill and a shaper

The lathesgenerally come with a full compliment of unused steadies 4 jaw chucks change gears and all manner of goodies including basic tooling.

Sniff around a few Manual Arts departments (ring before or after school )and you may score a bargain around $2000 to $2500-.

Our school bought a pair of 2nd hand Hercus 250 's and they are better than the ones we had to start with.
I believe there was someone doing up school Hercus lathes in Cavendish Rd Coopooroo in Brisbane

Grahame

[neksmerj]

Onya Gra,

Great minds think alike, my Hercus is a bloody beauty, picked it up from a Tech School auction. Cost me a whole $550!, mind you, that was a few years ago.

Ken

[malb]

Former employer bought a very similar machine from this vendor about 4 years ago. Was barely adequate for odd tasks required. Appears same but was branded MACHO

Chuck jaws and centres not hardened to normal standards, so accummulated wear quickly. Chucks did not grip well.

Spindle centre and tailstock centre approx .75mm out vertically when bought together, so cannot cut parallel between centres. No adjustment possible.

Moderate play in slides could not be dialled out - dovetails not parallel.

4 way toolpost tool base face low and toolholders needed shimming, but different shims in each position, i.e was not parallel to the toolpost base.

Base (underneath) of bed not machined, just rough cast. Needed 1.5 turns off tailstock clamping bolt in order to slide tailstock 6 inches along bed.

Bizzare belt drive system installed. V belt from 3 step on motor to 3 step on spindle for high speeds, plus a cog belt to an idler set. V belt from idler set to spindle for low speeds. Chinese belt drive can't handle the drive torque at lowest high speed, slipping and squealling constantly on low speeds.

Chinese paint softens considerably in the pressence of most lube and cutting oils, when disposed of at 30 months, machine looked like it had been running shift for shift for 10 years, probably had about 200 hrs total running. Gave on on trying to keep "polished" as wiping clean lifted the paint.

Lathe mounts to base pedestals with 1 bolt each end through 1.6mm pedestal, same for dynabolting pedestal to floor.

All in all not a great machine.

[Pete F]

Cripes! Lot's of ideas here, thanks guys. Regarding a larger lathe, one of the "problems" (though I think it's great) is that my garage has a dividing wall with 2 standard size doors (not together). It enables me to keep the wood dust up the front and the metalworking/mechanical/etc etc in a whole different area. Obviously though that makes getting large machines in and out just that much more of an exercise. I've noticed lathes seem to hold their value very well so I figure I will go for a smaller model and if it is simply not big enough for some of the things that come up then I can always upgrade.

Agree, buying an older model lathe would be a good option. Many of my (woodworking) hand tools are from early to mid 1900s. Often cheaper and almost always better than new versions unless you start paying big $$ for "boutique" tools. As I mentioned above, there are good second hand machines, then there are those that are just clapped out. Would be a great exercise to restore a machine, but have too many other projects for now. On this topic, can these machines cut metric threads correctly?

Regarding the e-bay machine, thanks for the experience with that. On reflection I now remember getting a drill press from him. The delivery etc was fine but it had a dent in the pulley cover. Tough luck seemed to be the response. The motor was dreadfully aligned (easy fix) and the pulleys aren't correctly aligned (been 3 years, so will fix when I get my round tuit). But if that's the experience with a simple drill press then how would a lathe go! :oo:

One question regarding, say the AL-320G. Once properly leveled, can a machine like that be "tuned" to perform quite well or will it always be a "cheap" machine.

Thanks again guys, clearly I'm not the only one in this position so guess the advice will passed on to many.

[pipeclay]

if you are asking can the older machines (imperial cut metric threads)yes you only need to acquire the 127/100 change gears,as for your question about tuning to perform correctly,if after levelling and securing it should be tuned,should only have to check tailstock aliagnment and adjust if required,if it required more than this for a new machine give it a miss

[Grahame Collins]

One question regarding, say the AL-320G. Once properly leveled, can a machine like that be "tuned" to perform quite well or will it always be a "cheap" machine.


My personal opinion of H&F machinery is that they are a major player in the light hobby machinery market.As such they can and do have machinery made to a price ahead of the quality.

Buy 500kgs of lathe and you will be financially responsible for its return to even make a warranty claim.Its a no brainer that if the cost of return exceeds the value of the repair the owner will opt to fix it himself wwhich then voids the warranty

I know a couple of blokes in the trade and they reckon H&F machines are rated at the lower end of the scale as far as quality is concerned. Quality control happens at the buyers end as I haven't heard that they inspect every machine before it goes to a buyer.

Having purchased a BP 14 bandsaw from H & F (on price ) some 10 years ago, I was dismayed when they stated they are not returning goods unless the vendor pays the transport.The bandsaw had bowed cast aluminium wheels .1mm out of concentric and miscast blade guards. The hole the guard guides ran in was 15 degrees difference from parallel to the blade.The table would not tilt all of the way of its range and the blade was out of square to the table due to the miscast pillar.

Not everyone gets a dud machine but when you do it will cost you heaps one way or the other.

The school before my time purchased a Hafco mill.The cherubs stuffed the draw bar threads. After waiting 5 months , still no replacement from China as Hafco don't carry that particular part.

I can't have a class not able to do certain projects, so I made one.Not everyone is as fortunate as i am to have acess to machinery and tooling to carry out effective repairs.

Don't let the upfront dollars over influence your purchase decision.I don't want anyone to get caught the way ,I did

Putting my flack jacket on now.
Grahame

[Pete F]

No I think you're spot on re the money side of things Grahame. Like most (all) of us here I'm not exactly swimming in the deep end of the $$$$ pool but I have money set aside for this. As I mentioned above I don't want a toy that can only do rough work ...I leave that to the operator, just don't want to blame my tools this time.

[hux]

Grahame - warm isn't it :D

Doesn't seem that the H&F stuff can be any worse than your own experience.

On the point of large vs small - I think H&F would be small compared to Harbour Freight, Enco and Grizzly in the USA. Now they would have the muscle to determine exact specs.

Hare and Forbes would be able to spec colours etc and general accessories but I doubt they would have much control over build quality - price would determine that - which is why they offer chinese and taiwanese machines in the common 12x36 and 14x40 sizes. Pay an extra $1k plus and get Taiwanese or save some $$ and experience less than 100% satisfaction.

I must say I have had good experience with H&F for purchasing tooling. Get a discount without asking etc.

[Pete F]

Since first posting I've basically come full circle with this and have decided to look at a used lathe. Graeme and Ken, you suggested looking for some coming out of schools etc. Not being in the educational field myself I've just been watching internet auction sites. I'm in Sydney and wondered about other options for finding out when these machines were coming up for sale? Feel free to PM if you wish.

Thanks,
Pete

[nexusone]

Mick Moyles in Sydney have a Hercus listed for $975. Has screw cutting gearbox. Surely worth a look. See their website.

Steve

[Mybrains]

I am going thru this hunt for a hobby lathe and i am space restricted (so no old big one for me!). Im in Sydney btw.

There are 2 stand outs in the chinese machines that I have found. The smaller 8x14" lathe that minitech sell locally in QLD and is popular in the US
http://stickman4.homestead.com/8x14lathe.html
http://www.cnczone.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/24
http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEMASTER8x14Lathe.htm

and the new Sieg C4 with 1000watt!!! motor. roughly an 8x17 Carbatec have it locally
http://www.siegind.com/Products/br-c4-lathe.htm
http://www.mini-lathe.com/m4/C4/c4.htm