The need for plans?

[mbirnios]

Hi all!

I was wondering what is the real need for plans, for the amateur woodworker. I see a lot of interest in geeting plans in the web, with great details, measures, views, etc., for making furniture, or other wooden objects.

While I don't discuss the need for plans in a comercial workshop, I feel that those detailed (and sometimes expensive) plans turns the work a little bit more boring.

It's just my personal feeling and humble hobbyist opinion, I like to feel free to imagine in my head, think of how to solve the joins, and draw no more than a super rough draft, and then put my hands at work. In the middle of it, new & fresh ideas comes up, and I work as I go. Of course, this bring design problems sometimes that I didn't see before hand: but that gives me room for improovement, and I feel It helps me to learn more about my mistakes (or stupid ideas! :doh:).

Anyway.. was just wondering how many of you like to use plans, or if some others instead share this "free" style, so I don't feel so sloppy :C

Sorry if this was posted before, I searched but couldn't find it.

Thanks very much!
Mariano

[Stevenp]

Hi all!

I was wondering what is the real need for plans, for the amateur woodworker. I see a lot of interest in geeting plans in the web, with great details, measures, views, etc., for making furniture, or other wooden objects.

While I don't discuss the need for plans in a comercial workshop, I feel that those detailed (and sometimes expensive) plans turns the work a little bit more boring.

It's just my personal feeling and humble hobbyist opinion, I like to feel free to imagine in my head, think of how to solve the joins, and draw no more than a super rough draft, and then put my hands at work. In the middle of it, new & fresh ideas comes up, and I work as I go. Of course, this bring design problems sometimes that I didn't see before hand: but that gives me room for improovement, and I feel It helps me to learn more about my mistakes (or stupid ideas! :doh:).
.
Anyway.. was just wondering how many of you like to use plans, or if some others instead share this "free" style, so I don't feel so sloppy :C

Sorry if this was posted before, I searched but couldn't find it.

Thanks very much!
Mariano

I have just about finished a project,a dresser, which I did from a plan and to be honest it was a pain in the butt.
The plan was measured in inches and we are all metric here. I wanted to keep the proportions right so converted as I went along. This is the first time I have actually had a plan and followed it right through. I usually get a picture in my mind and go from there, I reckon its easier
Cheers Steven

[seriph1]

Would like to see the dresser - plans are not something I usually follow if making an item just for myself, but when watching for example, Norm Abram on New Yankee Workshop, I often think to myself that I would like to see some of his plans.

The difficulty is that as mentioned, if it is a commercial operation, or one is interpreting someone else's ideas/needs, then plans are vital to ensure the person gets what they imagine. Also, if you want to make multiple items that are exactly the same (yawn) then plans make sense, even if they're relatively rudimentary.

Part of the work I do is as a kitchen designer, (period kitchens made like furniture) I am finding most people are unable to work out plans easily, so detailed drawings are required - even photos of other cabinets that are similar, is often not enough..... and of course, if one has to convince some authority to issue a permit for a building (I am trying to get a barn approved) plans, sketches, conceptual drawings, all help ....

So, I guess the rule of thumb is:

If you’re making for your own pleasure and only one or two items, AND you have a good eye for proportion, scale etc. – go for it!

If you need to replicate the precise dimensions and processes, then plans make sense … even a cutting list for stiles rails, door panels etc. is a plan, but I doubt the original poster was referring to this…. I guess there’s “plans” and there’s “planning”

Anyway, here are a few of the ‘plans’ I have done along with some pieces I made with no plans.

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Mariano,

I'm a 'free spirit' when it comes to plans. I like them, but it's a very rare occasion that I actually follow one completely. In fact I don't think I have ever followed a plan 100%:B

I tend to look them over, pick out the things I need to know for what I'm building and get stuck into it, amending and incorporating my own ideas as the work progresses.

I've done this as the timber I'm using at the time demands the changes or the idea of what I'm building is similar, but has a few major differences.

I find now, I prefer pictures rather than plans.

cheers
Wendy

[specialist]

Plans have their place. I personally nut it out in my head and then just do a rough sketch to finalize the measurments.


I find now, I prefer pictures rather than plans.


This is the way I work. Being a boilermaker, where I work, a lot of the jobs that I do come from photograhs and the customers overall dimensions. So I really is a matter of designing on the fly.

While I really do prefer a fully dimensioned plan, they are giving way to concept jobs. This way the piece that you a making will be original, one of a kind

Robert

[kekemo]

No...Never used a plan...EVER...& wouldn't ever....I see...I like...I make...
My biggest complement it to replica work that I see & would like to own....so I do! Of course I always pick the best of the design and improve...where I believe it is needed.

Not everyone can think in 3 demensional graphics....but those who can have no worries at constructing furniture.
I once thought that everyone could picture the plan in their head....but have been told this is not so.....I also couldn't read plans correctly...I am dyslexic with numbers so my measurement would be really trouble-some...I reverse numbers.....so if it said 132cm .....I am most likely to cut 123cm....so no plans for me...to confusing. :cool: I read plans and usually find errors in them or can straight away see where improvement could be made...so I leave them alone!

Some people have an eye for straight edges....distances...& can estimate with in a few cm.

I make all my own furniture....& can't get a decent job because of my disability...with dyslexia....& my absolute fear of written tests....put me infront of a test sheets & my head & hand freezes :oo:....my daughter is a science teacher....I still correct, advise & inspire her to learn more...

Not everyone that is gifted or tallented are recognized or find there real potential....if you find your niche.....your lucky.....I KNOW...woodwork is mine...not everyone recognizes or acknowledges someone for what they are...I'm have a small cleaning business....this suits me so well.....up at 3.30 am.....finished by 9am all day to play woodwork....the looks & some comments I actually get from people because "I am only a cleaner" .....
But....little do they realize....I have the most exquisite furniture....& just keep making more for peanuts compared to what they pay....so now my kids have the best too! Oh and while there doing 9 to 5 in the middle of a nice day.....in an office....I just put my boat in & enjoy the water...not bad for only a cleaner!.....

KEKEMO..........."SH..ED Butterfly" :2tsup:

http://Groups.msn.com/WOODWORKCountryCottage

go to PICTURES on side bar menu...about 7 albums...

[BobL]

If I use plans (if you can call them plans) I make up my own, usually when the project is a bit complex or I want to make sure the proportions will end up looking right. I start by drafting simple sketches from a number of perspectives. Once it looks close to being right I might then draw an A3 or A4 size scale diagram and working from a couple of base measurements I work out the rest. What I then take down to the shed on a bit of paper is often just a list of the base measurements - I find I can visualize 3D quite well and usually just hold the rest of the project in my head. I have been caught out a couple of times where on-the-fly fixes are needed

My favorite projects are those where I just work with the materials I have on hand and make things up as I go along. I recently made a horse mounting stool that way - I'm not the horse rider but apparently those that have used it tell me it works great.

[Eowyn]

I create my own plans. From rough sketches with lots of different joining & construction techqniques, I'll usually end up with an overall sketch to scale showing major features so I can check proportions. Then I'll have some more rough sketches showing any important detailed features, with dimensions.

I then identify each components major dimensions and figure out how to get that reasonably efficiently out of timber I have and the timber I then go an buy.


Is my engineering background showing? :D

[spokeshave]

I think plans have thier place. Especially for the absolute beginner.

A good plan may indicate where a certian joint may be used to give the beginner an idea on where to start. It may indicate where to use mortice & tenon, splines, laps etc.... Plans have helped me along the way.

I'm not saying you would copy a plan to the letter, and i doubt anyone would. But i think they even have a place for the home woodworker.

A plan may be a rough sketch on a piece of paper giving over-all
dimensions or a full on diagram. Anything down on paper has got to help.
I think everyone has at some stage used some sort of chook scratching on paper to work from!!!

On my current project i used Google Sketch-up to draw a 3D picture of what i was about to undertake then roughed out some dimensions to give me a starting point. I have already deviated from that first drawing.

So i guess each to thier own.
If you want to work from a plan then thats ok but to use something that you dreamed up in your head is what gives us so many original pieces that get posted on this here forum.

Steven.

[jaspr]

When I first started making things in wood, I didn't have the confidence to build something without plans. Except for simple projects - boxes and things.

So I started "reading" plans. Subscribed to a few magazines that provide plans and directions and would read them from start to finish. Sounds boring, I know, but I was absorbing so much.

I quickly found that I'm a natural fiddler when I'm building things - that is, I started changing plans to suit my needs. It was too boring just following the plan rigidly. [It's the way I cook, too! ... And I like reading recipe books.]

I'm now more confident to work from a sketch - even a 'mental sketch' and will build things that way. I guess as I will still use plans when I'm tackling new/unfamiliar projects - as I stretch my skills more.

[Harry72]

I make what fits!

[Chris Parks]

Some people just have no ability to conceptualise a project, someone like me for instance who can't do a 3D plan to save my life, so I need plans or at least visual cues to begin a project. So don't knock plans they are all I have.

[echnidna]

Plans are helpful in achieving attractive proportions

[RufflyRustic]

Nothing wrong with Plans, or following them. Look at the wonderful work Rocker does, he uses plans.

Hmm, maybe if I followed a plan a bit closer I might not make so many mistakes :rolleyes:

[corbs]

I have a plan for a roll top desk... haven't made it yet though :rolleyes:. Depending on what I am making I either go freestyle or if its a bit more complicated make my own plans to get a cutting list and go shopping for the wood. I like to buy all my wood for a project in one hit to increase the chances of it all matching on the final product.

[pitbull]

No...Never used a plan...EVER...& wouldn't ever....I see...I like...I make...
My biggest complement it to replica work that I see & would like to own....so I do! Of course I always pick the best of the design and improve...where I believe it is needed.

Not everyone can think in 3 demensional graphics....but those who can have no worries at constructing furniture.
I once thought that everyone could picture the plan in their head....but have been told this is not so.....I also couldn't read plans correctly...I am dyslexic with numbers so my measurement would be really trouble-some...I reverse numbers.....so if it said 132cm .....I am most likely to cut 123cm....so no plans for me...to confusing. :cool: I read plans and usually find errors in them or can straight away see where improvement could be made...so I leave them alone!

Some people have an eye for straight edges....distances...& can estimate with in a few cm.

I make all my own furniture....& can't get a decent job because of my disability...with dyslexia....& my absolute fear of written tests....put me infront of a test sheets & my head & hand freezes :oo:....my daughter is a science teacher....I still correct, advise & inspire her to learn more...

Not everyone that is gifted or tallented are recognized or find there real potential....if you find your niche.....your lucky.....I KNOW...woodwork is mine...not everyone recognizes or acknowledges someone for what they are...I'm have a small cleaning business....this suits me so well.....up at 3.30 am.....finished by 9am all day to play woodwork....the looks & some comments I actually get from people because "I am only a cleaner" .....
But....little do they realize....I have the most exquisite furniture....& just keep making more for peanuts compared to what they pay....so now my kids have the best too! Oh and while there doing 9 to 5 in the middle of a nice day.....in an office....I just put my boat in & enjoy the water...not bad for only a cleaner!.....

KEKEMO..........."SH..ED Butterfly" :2tsup:

http://Groups.msn.com/WOODWORKCountryCottage

go to PICTURES on side bar menu...about 7 albums...

:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:Good for you. :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Chris Parks]

I am so bad with drawing plans in 3D I cannot for the life of me make Sketch Up work and I know if I could it would help me tremendously. I need a person who I can sit with to show me initially. I have looked at the videos and tutorials but I just can't get it.

[mbirnios]

Great, thanks for all the answers! So far it looks that there is a lot of different flavors here, and I think that cool :2tsup:

I also agree that the times that I did more detailed drawings before starting, it was preety much easier to accurate estimate the amount of wood required, and then buy all at once... but mmh, anyway, everytime I go to the lumber yard I always end up with a few more pieces than expected.. you know... as I tell my wife.. "just in case".. :;

Cheers!
Mariano

[Chumley]

I create my own plans. From rough sketches with lots of different joining & construction techqniques, I'll usually end up with an overall sketch to scale showing major features so I can check proportions. Then I'll have some more rough sketches showing any important detailed features, with dimensions.

I then identify each components major dimensions and figure out how to get that reasonably efficiently out of timber I have and the timber I then go an buy.


Is my engineering background showing? :D


I'm the same - heaps of plans/pictures/details/measurements/etc. I find myself thinking "I'll use one of those mortice and tenon joints here..." then when I try to draw it I realise it won't work for some reason, so I figure something else out. Generally end up with more drawings than I need, but I rarely buy timber and then figure out I made a mistake.
Cheers,
Adam

[seriph1]

Since using AutoCad I have found it is faster for me to draw using it, than by hand. The one thing computer programs have, is the ability to copy/paste/edit drawings in a flash.

Not that anyone has said it here, but I reject that computer produced drawings take away from anything, other than the time it takes to get to the result.

The one further huge benefit for me is that I can draw in scale, in minutes - this gives me an accurate representation of how something is going to look.

[kekemo]

Anyway.. was just wondering how many of you like to use plans, or if some others instead share this "free" style, so I don't feel so sloppy :CI just wanted to thank you for the interesting thread (mbirnios) ..and add a little comment.....I get a little frustrated when people don't read the first thread properly....you started a great thread....just asking for peoples comments and what they did.....I didn't want anyone to think as if "those who read plans where being mocked or ridiculed"......this is not the case at all.....Just wanted to point that out.

Where I never use plans in woodwork....I designed and submitted house plans (twenty years ago, when we built our home, as owner builders....not one problem ).....I did Tech drawing 35 years ago at school....so have the ability...to actual draw professional house plans or woodworking plans( but find it exhaustively hard & time consuming)....I read the street directory when I need to get somewhere....plans are helpful to those who need to read them.....but some people don't need to or don't choose too.....the question & this thread was interesting.....thanks.....

I actually find it enjoyable to alter a design if I can see an improvement....that doesn't mean the original design was wrong....everyone to their own.....

Interesting enjoying this thread....Your definitely not "SLOPPY" its just like swimming....we all develop our own style.....

" I can swim & float....but wouldn't win a race....can save a person from drowning but I wouldn't become a life saver.....like pools but choose to have a spa....."

Everyone is different.....
No right or wrong...just your own personal style.....Thanks, great thread! ....KEKEMO:2tsup::2tsup:

[Frank&Earnest]

Correct me if I am wrong, Mariano, but if your question was, as I interpreted: do you buy/acquire designs made by somebody else or do you make up your own, basically all respondents were those that do not bother acquiring, notwithstanding your observation that obviously many people do. Not an unexpected result, given that we all want to highlight our creativity, don't we?:D

So, IMHO the question was NOT do you make up neat, detailed drawings and measurements or do you just scrawl something on a piece of paper and develop it in your mind.

We all need to "plan" when we make something, i.e. we need structured thinking aimed at achieving our aim. And we all get inspiration from somebody else's work, we do not live in a vacuum.

How we go about it is a matter of how our brain works, hardly relevant information for the presumably different brain of another person... except maybe as a poll of how "normal" this person is compared to our self-selected group...:wink::U

[mbirnios]

Correct me if I am wrong, Mariano, but if your question was, as I interpreted: do you buy/acquire designs made by somebody else or do you make up your own, basically all respondents were those that do not bother acquiring, notwithstanding your observation that obviously many people do. Not an unexpected result, given that we all want to highlight our creativity, don't we?:D

Hi Frank! Now that I read your post, maybe my original question was not so clear (spanish comes first to mind!), but I think you guys got it anyway. My question was if anyone like to use those super fine/detailed plans, that are mostly available comercially (the ones you can buy). But, I think the question also applies to "homemade" plans, if those have the same degree of detail: all and every join, measures, lengths, widhts, etc.

My feeling is that once I got the final plan with all the super details (either buyed or homemade), then one becomes some kind of "executor", and there's no so much room for improovment. I preffer to make just a couple of suuuper simple drawings of the piece that I like to do, and then go for it! No join details, just a picture of the piece I want to get. Then as I work, I'll try to figure out how to get there: which joins to use, how to solve different problems, etc. Usually in the middle of all that, new ideas comes to mind!



Interesting enjoying this thread....Your definitely not "SLOPPY" its just like swimming....we all develop our own style.....

Thanks, and I'm also enjoying reading the answers!!

Cheers!!
Mariano

[Frank&Earnest]

I preffer to make just a couple of suuuper simple drawings of the piece that I like to do, and then go for it!

Yep, you will fit right in, then. Welcome to the group! (or the madhouse, as many like to say:U). Your English is OK, anyway, better than some of the local's...:wink:

[m2c1Iw]

But, I think the question also applies to "homemade" plans, if those have the same degree of detail: all and every join, measures, lengths, widhts, etc.

Hi Mariano,
One of the problems I've had with homemade plans/sketches etc. is proportions. I have trouble visualising the finished piece, have been known the draw a project get the dimensions to what I think is right only to finish the job and find it looks all wrong. So now I make a full size or scaled version first to check before starting with the good wood so I can play with different length legs or widths etc. I have recently bought an old drafting table with the idea to draw my next project full size and include detailed joinery (might help dimensioning the material which I also have trouble with).
I should do a materials list but generally too impatient and end up buying more wood that I need or sometimes wrong dimensions:doh: oh well you never know when you might need that left over piece.
Cheers Mike

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi Mariano,

Depends on what the plans are for. If Im on the lathe I let the muse take me and see what happens. It might be a rough plan (oh look... there is a bowl in there) or, more often, how do I fix that? (dealing with a dig in...). If, however Im making a musical instrument there is always a high degree of planning involved. Musical is very mathematical, If I am making a whistle or recorder the dimensions need to be very precise to play in tune. The same applies for Mandolins or Guitars.

Sebastiaan

[Terry B]

I find a very rough plan helps me work out what I need to buy. It limits the number of trips to the hardware store.

[munruben]

Just a rough sketch for me to more or less estimate the material I will use and get the dimensions right. Usually change things as I go along to suit the design. I like the free feel of doing what I want to get it to look the way I want. Have copied a few ideas that I got from looking at pieces of furniture in various shops but haven't really copied them to the letter just took a few ideas from the pieces I liked in the store.

I have never used a detailed plan other than when I built a display cabinet for a real estate office and it had to be to strict dimensions for some reason or other.

Of course working with no plans usually means a few more trips to the timber suppliers when you haven't calculated it right but thats all par for the course.:)

[Ticky]

My Brother & I get together fairly often for woodwork days. We are complete oposites. He never uses a plan for anything & I cant join 4 bits of wood together without at least a sketch. I have never used other peoples drawings for my woodwork, but if I have to join much more than 4 bits of wood together, I usually draw a set of drawings on Autocad, with a master plan on page 1 & details on the other pages.

Someone else said that they were a Boilermaker & can visualize what they are doing with out a plan. I had a laugh (at my self) when I read that, because I too was a Boilermaker & I site that reason for requiring a plan.

I find the drawing of the plan, & working out the BOM (Bill Of Materials) to be part of the creative experiance. I also change ideas as I go, But for me, it is Usually on the plan & before I buy the timber. With all of my planning, I still cut some bits to fit.

Good thread.

Steve