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Renovator
3rd November 2007, 08:07 AM
Hi to Everyone
This is my first post but I have been lurking around for a few months. Like many others starting out as a first time builder,"which boat" seems to be the biggest challenge, or is it just the first one. I'm looking for a beach boat/day sailer less than 18' for ease of towing and storage, preferably unstayed mast(s) as I have to rig it on the water after getting under a few low bridges, will take a small outboard. Reasonably forgiving to sail while we are not old we aren't as agile as we once were. (and did I say it need to look good).Most of our sailing will be on Port Philip bay
So far I am seriously considering the GIS, Phoenix III, The Dudley Dix Argie 15 and the B&B Core Sound 17. At the moment the Core Sound seems to be my favoured choice. It fits my criteria and it looks to be a less difficult project for a first time builder.
I would appreciate any advice or suggestions, to help me with my choices. Does anyone have any feedback on the B&B design?

Cheers

Russell

Boatmik
3rd November 2007, 10:49 AM
The Core sound boats are well regarded in the USA.

Michael

mcchaddy
6th November 2007, 02:03 PM
Hi Russell,

I'm currently building the Phoenix III and as a first time boat builder myself, I'm finding it quiet easy. The plans/building manual are fantastic and Ross is only to happy to help where needed.

Cant wait to get it in the water and start sailing.

Cheers

Michael.

Deefa
6th November 2007, 04:19 PM
Hi McChaddy,
Was out sailing with a mate that has the first Phoenix III last week, here's a pic of her scooting along in at the top of Bribie with the main reefed, gets along real well. :2tsup:
How about some construction pics of your progress to date ??? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Renovator
12th November 2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks for the feed back everyone,
Dave, I spoke to Ross and I found him very very helpful, and the Phoenix III looks great.
I've heard that the sprit rig can be a handful reefing on the water. How did you guys go with it?

Cheers

Russell

Deefa
13th November 2007, 01:08 PM
Russell
I'll try to get Paul to reply regarding reefing Phoenix III. :B I do know that in theory you could reef my own 12'3" Bobcat on the water but if it was blowing hard enough to want to set a reef it would be a real handful to carry it out on the water. Piece of cake on the shore.
What do you reckon Paul ? :?

Boatmik
13th November 2007, 09:19 PM
A mizzen makes a big difference (in terms of reefing on the water).

Green Ginger
14th November 2007, 07:53 AM
Russell
You are right about reefing a sprit rig because of the fact that you have to lower the heel of the sprit down the mast with the sail so that proper peak to tack tension can be maintained for sail shape.This can be accomplished on the water with two on board but I wouldn't like to attempt the procedure solo. I think most would agree that no matter what sort of rig a small sail boat has they would prefer to reef on the beach when on your own.
With my boat I also know that if I do get caught out and it is not possible to beach it I can drop the jib and if things still look dodgy it is a simple and safe procedure to unship the sprit and then lower the unstayed mast with sail still attached into the boat get the oars out and row myself to safety.By the way she doesn't row too bad either.
To get to the most important question you need answered what sort of boat to build keep asking questions weigh up the pros and cons then do it. My boat took me eight months to build ( I was working at the time and it kept cutting into my boatbuilding ) I thoroughly enjoyed the building process then you get to go sailing thats why I'm still :D.
Lastly don't be overawed by the ply clinker construction check out Ian Oughtred's "Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual" and "How to Build Glued-Lapstrake Wooden Boats" by John Brooks And Ruth Ann Hill " both of these books were in my local library.I reckon clinker looks pretty good.But then I am biased.
See Dave I did it.
Paul

RossL
14th November 2007, 08:33 AM
When designing Phoenix III, I thought long and hard about the rig options. After choosing the Sprit-Sloop as the primary rig (there are other options in the plans) I was aware that reefing on the water might be a bit of a nuisance, but the rig DOES reef very well - see the photo which Deefa posted.

The reasons for choosing the Sprit-Sloop were: -

shortest mast for a given sail area
being able to carry a jib effectively on a completely un-stayed rig. This is possible because the compession in the sprit translates to tension in the head of the sail, which in turn translates to tension in the luff of the jibFor those who want a more easily reefed rig, I have designed a balanced lug.

I agree with Boatmik about a mizzen, butI wanted to keep Phoenix III un-cluttered. I have a design under development which carries two balanced lugs in a Periauger (Cat-Ketch) rig.

Ross Lillistone

Boatmik
14th November 2007, 08:43 AM
Howdy Renovator,

While I like Ross's Pheonix a great deal, I am not sure that I would be saying it is a simple boat in the same way that the others are - but of course it depends on your experience and viewpoint.

In general when people ask me about a boat to build or the method I always shoot back a question

What is your main purpose
1/ To develop and enjoy the woodworking skills
2/ To go sailing within a reasonable timeframe

All boats are a mix of both, as are all people. The impression I got from your post at the top is that your focus was more on finding something simple that would go together relatively easy.

I have done a lot of teaching of different boatbuilding methods in class situations. In the last duckflat springschool we had 4 people building Outhtred clinker boats.

One was managing fine, two acheived their objectives but were slower than they thought they would be, and the third had a lot of trouble coming to grips with the project but got a good grasp towards the end.

That was with teachers available.

The Oughtred plans are really good, and from what I have heard Ross's Pheonix plans are pretty d**n good too.

So when you read the question I pose above - I would make sure that learning to boatbuild and the experience was higher on your priorities before taking on a Pheonix - but only in comparison to the plywood boats - which are faster and more straightforward to build and will get you on the water faster.

It is a bit like applied psychology - you have to know where you are at to make the right decision.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Disclaimer - I am the designer of the GIS - but I am happy whatever boat you build. If you choose the one that fits your real needs (and provide the biggest satisfaction) - so focus on those.

BTW the GIS goes well with an outboard and no rig, but I wouldn't consider sailing her with an outboard attached most of the time.

RossL
14th November 2007, 03:58 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with what Michael Storer has said in the above post. Everybody is different - not only in their level of experience, but also in their ability to think their way through challenging problems.

It is really important to have an accurate (and objective) idea of your own ability. As you will already have discovered, there are plenty of people in this field who are willing to give assistance generously. BUT, you will be doing yourself a great favour by reading as much as you can before the fact, and then doing lots of research on your own. That way, you are more likely to choose the correct design, materials, and building method. Best of all, you will gain satisfaction from having worked through the problems yourself.

Ross Lillistone

Boatmik
15th November 2007, 12:21 AM
And a good set of plans helps - whatever the building method!