Year 12 major piece, advice please.

[kellya01]

Hi everyone, short time member and first time poster :p Love your site!

I am doing year 12 design technology next year and have been advised to start thinking, researching and even sketching things that I might want to make. I only make one piece and have decided to get away from the coffee tables, entertainment units, desks and beds that many people make and go for a butcher block/bench.

In order to do well I understand that I have to think outside the square so to speak and make it something different to show I have actually put alot of effort into the project instead of just flogging an everyday, common piece of furniture/bench and knocked it up.

I would like to include:

some kind of recipe book display. either under a sheet of removable glass facing upwards or a collapsible (hinged) stand that faces the work area. This could also double as a small tray/shelf at a different angle for chopped foods etc (I always seem to run out of room on the chopping board when doing the vegies/meat.
a removable chopping board. hardy and good looking, have seen many of the end grain glued chopping boards on here that look great and am keen to do one of these, although haven't quite caught onto the way they are put together yet as it is kind of hard to grasp it over the net. If anyone could put together a concise explanation it would be greatly appreciated.
wheels, I anticipate the whole thing will be quite weighty by the time its finished and would also like to be able to take it outside for around the barbecue or elsewhere.
knife block. don't know if this is possible or not but i'd like to include an inbuilt knife block that actually has the knives sunk into the bench with just the handles pertruding from the top.
aerated draws for potatoes/onions other vegies that don't need to be kept in the fridge. whether this is practicle or not i haven't quite worked out yet, but I think it'd be a great inclusion, and a good design challenge that might pay dividends.Overall I'd anticipate the bench/block being somewhere around 1500 x 500 x roughly bench height (incl. wheels), however this is flexible. Obviously it needs to be strong and food safe.

Hopefully some of you regulars will be able to come up with some ideas on how to achieve the extras i've mentioned. I'd also like any advice you guys have on what type of timber to use (I'm not very knowledgeable in that area). Readily available at school is Tassie Oak and pine, but anything extra we are required to buy ourselves (cost is not much of an issue for me) so any timber you guys can recommend would be much appreciated, especially if you know of any good mills around Geelong. I've also got to consider a finish for the whole thing but I guess that's a long way down the track.

My next step is to get cracking in sketch up, if anyone has any good tips as I've never used it before, I'd love to hear from you.

Thanks in advance.

P.s - wasn't quite sure whether to put this in general or design/sketch up or where so if I've made a mistake please forgive me and move it as necessary.

[Ticky]

Hi Kelly Wecome to the forum.

I am the chief cook & bottle washer in our house & so I think I can help you a bit.

IF I WERE USING THE BLOCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT:

1. For me, I would not want glass on the top as glass bluntens knives & I hate blunt knives, so I would not want the recipie on the block & under glass. also, this idea would only work if the recipie was on a flat shhet & not a book.

2 Removeable chopping board is good. To build an end grain board, you start with some stock & pine is good for this, that is wide x narrow. Glue lengths of stock together on the wide face. Cut across you glue joints about 6 or so mm longer than your desired thickness of your board. Reglue back together on the narrow faces but offset 1/2 the thicness of your original stock to stagger the joints like a brick wall. To flatten, see this thread http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=49176

3. Knife block. I have never done this, but if you take a piece of timber & slice it on the Bandsaw, making a book match pair, hollow out where your knives will go with a router of chisel, on both pieces & reglue it back together, should be easy enough.

4. Airatted draws. I have a spud & ouion box on a shelf on mine with a couple 25mm holes in the back & a bit of mesc over them. Works a treat.

Here is one I made a few years ago. It is pretty basic compared to your ideas, but I think it shows how well the Jarrah & Pine look together.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=205256#post205256

Good luck Kelly.

Steve

[aaron.aafjes]

mate, what you want to do is make something that is usually fabricated or cast from metal in timber, it will blow your teachers away...... trust me:wink::2tsup:... think outside the box:U

[jaspr]

Hi Kellya01

Sounds like a great project. I like the idea of the knife block built in. I've seen this done once. The knives were along one edge of the frame/base with just the handles sticking out.

The cutting block needs to be removeable so you can get it to the sink occasionally. The one I have is about 500 x 500 mm and about 50 mm deep. It's heavy. I wouldn't make it much bigger.

And, I'd use a hardwood of some sort - what ever is easiest to get that doesn't have a strong smell or is known to be toxic. Pine will cut up too quickly, I think.

I've been using the hardwood one I have solidly for about 20 years and it still is in real good nick - and I use it every day. Just oil it occasionally. As soon as a chopping board starts getting cut up with fibres showing, it starts to get unsafe to use - it harbours bacteria. So I'd recommend hardwood - though I have never used a pine end grain block.

I've made some smaller ones out of standard F17 hardwood that you get from Bunnies and they came up nicely.

Back to your design, though. I think your greatest challenge will be to work out how to attach a book/recipe holder. Some suggestions - put it in a pullout drawer just below the block. Or make a sleeve (open book sized box) out of perspex, say, and hang it from a metal rod on the side. When not in use it hangs straight down. When it needs to be consulted the user swivels it up to horizontal to read then drops it back down. Just some thoughts.

Good luck with it. Let us know how it turns out.

[kellya01]

Many thanks guys, great help so far. Will start throwing some drawings around soon and have a chat with my teacher.

I also had a bit of an idea to use a router or similar and rebate a cutout for each knife in the set into the side of actual block and put a clear perspex/glass outer on it so each knife can be seen from the outside with the handles coming out the top. Rebating the actual shape of each knife might be hard to do without making it look choppy though.

[Ticky]

Kelly,
the only bit that has to be neat is the bit around the handle, The top face. Inside, it could be 10mm oversize, & it wouldn't matter. As for the block, the reason that soft woodcan work is because it is end grain. This is self healing due the knife parting the fibers not cutting them. There is no reason you should or should not use hard or soft woof as far as the block it self is oncerned, only the amount of work involved in sanding it. you will not thing that soft wood is too soft after spending a couple hours sanding it on the end grain.

Steve

[haosiliu235]

Have you thought about something that relates to your major piece? For a outcome task (major piece)... don't you have to do another outcome task that relates to your first one? :?

Maybe do your chopping board for the other outcome task that relates to ur major piece

[BobL]

As with anything kitchen watch out for gaps and cleaning. Try to design it with out any gaps or holes showing. Built in knife block sounds cool but with my luck I'm always going to be fishing out a carrot peel or pea from a knife block hole. Same with removable chopping board - make sure that when it is removed you can easily clean the recess it came out of - nothing worse than blood or something sweet and sticky getting into corners. Round out all corner recesses so they can be easily cleaned.

As for the recipe holder I would go for a multi-armed thingo like a dentists or surgical lamp that sits where you put it. The other would be to use a goose-neck or articulated lamp fitting. It would be good if it could be arranged to fold and tuck away when not in use.

Cheers

[kellya01]

thanks guys!

Had a quick bash tonight first time at sketch up.
The knife holder and the recipe book holder were tricky, i will try another approach tomorrow or something, but if anyone has any other suggestions or wants to have a bash at the block, i can email the sketchup file. Pics below.

[Tonyz]

my 2 bobs worth.
Id make the removable chopping board larger than what your've got ie full size
Also if it was 60mm thick, about 30mm down Id cut back all sides so that it overlapped its frame and that way no dirt can get in the edges.
With your knives think about small kids and their fingers, perhaps cover the area with removable perspex.
go for it young man half ya luck

[kellya01]

Thanks tonto, that's a great idea to make the chopping board overlap and keep the dirt etc out.

Anyone got any ideas about timber?

[ss_11000]

just so you know - you can attatch sketchup files. good luck with your peice

[Frank&Earnest]

Picking up from Bob- the knife slots on the edge seem likely to pick up spills etc. IMHO I would put the knife block under the tabletop to be pulled out when needed on a hinge or slides. It also avoids the problem of handles sticking out and reducing access to the working surface. It does not have to be vertical either, a drawer with vertical slots would be fine also.

[Pusser]

I would not have a drawer where it is as scraps will inevitably fall in. I would replace that with a scrap bin/trough so you can just swipe the waste off the board into the bin. Suspend the trough and have a lift off lid on it.

You also need to make the cutting board reversable so you can avoid cross food contamination - especially from fish and chicken.

Looks a good project anyway - good luck and enjoy it.

Pusser

[kellya01]

Making the chopping board reversable but also able to be suspended in the actual table top will be hard if i want to make it overlap and prevent bits/crumbs falling into the cavity.

I will go with another design tonight. I tried to attach the sketchup file but it is approx 80kb oversize, does anyone know how to reduce them?

Cheers,

[Rhys Cooper]

hey good luck i am also in yr 12 doing desing and tech. how easy is sketch up to use? not meaning to hijack the htread just curious befor i download it.
good luck again.
Rhys

[kellya01]

I downloaded it for the first time about 6 hours before i posted those pictures. I found it very easy although I am sure theres still lots to learn!

[ss_11000]

sketch up is great after you've done the tutorials. well worth downloading.:2tsup:

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY id=collapseobj_attachkey><TR><TD class=alt2> skp</TD><TD class=alt2>244.1 KB</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
i've uploaded sketchup stuff before. i'm sure they were skp files.

just checked and yep, they were skp files

[kellya01]

Had another go tonight and started from scratch. Firstly I know it all looks a bit out of proportion and bulky, I will have to get my dimensions and proportions right in sketchup instead of just guessing.

For this, i think i'll put the knives in the bottom draw, flat in a felted type draw with the shapes of the knives checked out with a router or something. This means the block/storage wont get full of crumbs/scraps and dirt etc, ensures children can't readily access the knives keeps handles out of harms way.

The whole draw/box system is on slides which you can see I have left room for either side of the drawer, this means the whole unit can be pulled out and the scrap bin lid lifted off. When full the whole thing can be pulled out and emptied also.

I also left a small glass area between the drawer and the scrap bin for something, this was basically me getting carried away in sketchup, although i thought maybe it could be used to put a photo or something behind but the more I think about it it sounds more trouble than it's worth.

The recipe holder at the back has a sheet of glass attached to the wood which the recipe sits behind. I've also checked out a square length along the bench top which means the whole thing can be hinged up and sit perpendicular to the benchtop. I'd be interested to know if you guys think the glass top is worth worrying about, because if not the whole rest can fold completely flat and tuck up against the rear of the chop block. Thoughts? I also make the chop block with a mitred border for a bit of look and also to let it sit over the top of ledge it's sitting in, thanks for the tip whoever suggested that which will stop all the crumbs and dirt getting in underneath the board.

I put in some racks underneath although I anticipate that being very time consuming and I don't particularly like jointing with dowells, so whether that's practicle and useful or not I'm not yet sure. I thought I could alternate with each rail for a bit of effect like using two different timbers on the chop board.

I also put a stainless steel looking tea-towel/hand towel rail on the side for a bit of effect to sharpen up the whole thing..

Interested in everyone's thoughts.

Cheers,

[Sybarite]

Hey Kellya01,

That bench is making some good prgress - sketchup is a fantastic conceptual tool.

I have a comment from a designers perspective, which is based on the fact that I have been trying to design a new type of cookery book holder for quite a while now.

re your deisgn, be wary of that largish sheet of glass.

It seems to be quite wide - wider than even my wifes biggest recipe book; maybe it could bear narrowing down a touch.

Also it looks to be dedicated to enclosing only a certain maximum thickness book.
I don't know if you have looked at someone's cookery book collection but if ours is anything to go by they vary from magazine thickeness to the size of encyclopedias.

So my summation would be:

Lessen the amount of cover sheet
Consider using clear acrylic rather than glass (so much safer in a kitchen)
Devise a way of accomodating books of greatly varying thickness.
When you have solved this problem send me a copy of your plans so I can produce my own version and take the credit.

Good luck.

Cheers,

[Tonyz]

Lookin good so far :D Now I cant work this scetchup stuff so I'll try other ideas.

* Id be making the chopping block the full size of the unit.
* Id also be making the scrap bin deeper
* Between the scrap bin and that bottom shelf theres room for the vege drawers
* The bottom of these drawers Id use small hole size but tough chicken wire or similar, this would allow the air movement and bits to fall through rather than collect in the corners
* It also needs to be on lockable castors

Dont know where you live but go window shopping at kitchen ware type shops, places that sell this type of thing and ask mum, aunties, uncles who cook, girlgriends and their mothers what they would like if it was there's. Do some market research type stuff it all goes towards the project and will bring up more ideas to complicate the whole design:wink:

Your doing a fine job, willing to listen rather than "this is what I want design it for me" and prepared to experiment.

[RobTro]

Just my 2 yen worth...

Is it a stand alone island away from everything? If it is reasonably close to other surfaces in a kitchen then I would forget the recipe book holder. When I cook I just put the book or recipe on another bench or open an adjacent draw soomtimes and put it over the open drawer. I much prefer to have a nice clean and fully accessable work suface for preparing food. And occasionally turning a bit to check a recipe is no big deal.
Also with the recipe tray like it is, I think it would get in the way of moving around your working triangle and probably get knocked (painful and a problem); which leads into the next reason...it looks nice there in the pic but you actually have to have some support as well so that you can hold a heavy recipe book. You will need to think about how this will work and how it will fold away otherwise it will be in the way or look like an add on. Also having things that fold away or down etc looks nice in the shop or on a drawing butin reallity things often get left out as people can"t be bothered to pack eveything upand pull it out all the time.

If I wanted to do something fancy I might think about having a turn-out tray (hard to describe - but parallel with the top and coming out on a pin hinge from under the bench top) You could just put a normal wire book stand there, or place your paper on it or even use it for a little extra space for placing things when needed. You don't need a recipe book all the time. And when not needed just push it in under the bench out of the way.


Knives - I love my kitchen knives. I have quite a few. Rather than having them lay flat in the drawer I would suggest cut a slit in a stand of some form and place the knives horizonatl, handles to the font with the blade vertical. That way when you are in a hurru or when little helpers are around the blade is always down and you can't cut yourslef and the handles are there ready to be grabbed. Also it might seem nice to have felt lining etc in the draw but I would recomend against it as it will get dirty , wet and tattered with sharp edges hetting all the time. Just a simple wooden drawer with approprate "knife till" inside. Also have the drawer front only a half-front allowing you to see the handles a bit and make it easy to open the drawer. An interesting touch.

Anyway just some ideas.


And maybe go to book store and check out some interior design books and kitchen books for ideas.
Rob

[RobTro]

Just another thought...add a rounded groove all around the outside of the top so that if any small spills occur, the liquid or juices stay up top and don't dribble down the side or onto the floor. My counter tops have this and it great.

And you could actually add two drawers, one on either side. One is the knife till draw and the other is the recipe book drawer. Use it like I do and just pull out the drawer and put the book over that. When not in use just close the draw. also good for storing that most often used recipe book in a handy location.

Rob

[Greg_stewy]

Another idea.....

If you have watched some of the Jamie Oliver shows when he was cooking in his apartment kitchen , you may have noticed that with his scraps, he would just lift a little circular section of the bench(about 10" diameter), and push his scraps into the hole and then put the lid back in... alot simpler and tidier than grabbing in your hands and carring somewhere...

[jaspr]

It looks great so far. make sure you set the block into a rebate of some sort - to hold it in place.

[Zed]

is the space its going to go in big enough ?

consider recycled timber - could get you some marks especially if you spout off about sustainability and make up some story about how you only used timber that was hand raised by hippies and harvested using love and understanding whilst singing shanties to the ghosts of trees past....

Oh.. recycled timber is far cheaper too....

[kellya01]

Thanks guys.


* The bottom of these drawers Id use small hole size but tough chicken wire or similar, this would allow the air movement and bits to fall through rather than collect in the corners
* It also needs to be on lockable castors
not quite sure of these two points, don't quite follow. And not sure what you mean by castors.


Another idea.....

If you have watched some of the Jamie Oliver shows when he was cooking in his apartment kitchen , you may have noticed that with his scraps, he would just lift a little circular section of the bench(about 10" diameter), and push his scraps into the hole and then put the lid back in... alot simpler and tidier than grabbing in your hands and carring somewhere...
Will definately do this. Great idea. Should i just mark the circle on the benchtop, drill a hole and cut it out with a jig saw as neat as possible and sand it back as clean as i can, as with the bin with a lip around the top of it the actual cut won't be seen until the bin is taken out to be emptied on occasion?

I've also like the idea of having the knives in a draw sitting upright in a cutting position type way with the handles outward ready to be grabbed. Should be easy to make a space for them to sit in upright and just open the drawer when a knife needs to be used.

Will do another draft design including these and post tomorrow. Thanks guys.

[kellya01]

Had another go and found myself looking for extra space between the knife drawer and the bottom shelf for the vegie drawers, kinda crammed them in, thought I'm not completely happy with it.

Scrapped the recipe holder and put a mould area for a book/sheet in the knife drawer.

Cut out the angled holds for the knives and also had a go at putting a place for a steel.
I know the angles for the real thing will need to be more acute to hold the knives in place, though I just eccentuated them a little bit to show the idea.

I couldn't quite get my head around the above posters idea of putting a rounded curve all the way around so i just put a small thickness ledge right around though I'd like to make it less sharp and rigid and more gradual on the piece.

Put the scrap bin in though i couldn't put a lid with a lip ontop of it to show how it would look when not in use. But you get the idea.

Any other suggestions thoughts??

[Pusser]

I think the grove meant was a cove around the top - done with a router using the fence or a template. Like the sketch.

It looks good. A cove on the chopping board or table will work better than a raised edge as it is cut into the base and is one less piece to catch or create a crevice to trap food and germs. Sorry if this is a "suck eggs" thing.

[Tonyz]

Thanks guys.


Quote:
* The bottom of these drawers Id use small hole size but tough chicken wire or similar, this would allow the air movement and bits to fall through rather than collect in the corners
* It also needs to be on lockable castors

not quite sure of these two points, don't quite follow. And not sure what you mean by castors.

Sorry. My thought with the drawers was- instead of a solid base like ply or such, to have chicken wire or similar stretched across the base. Strong enough to hold everything in, but with vegies there is always rubbish and with the wire this would fall through instead of collecting.

Locking castors on the legs stop it from moving when not wanted.

[kellya01]

Good idea. But wouldn't this mean you'll constantly end up with onion peel and rubbish falling out the bottom of your block onto the floor?

[Tonyz]

Yeah, but whats worse crap on the floor or in the vegie drawers:D:D

[Gra]

Good idea. But wouldn't this mean you'll constantly end up with onion peel and rubbish falling out the bottom of your block onto the floor?


Yeah, but whats worse crap on the floor or in the vegie drawers:D:D

A catch tray underneath, that could be easily emptied (Like the crumb tray in a taoster)