Knife Sharpening

[kman-oz]

G'day all,

I've just purchased a decent set of knifes for the kitchen made from laminated high-carbon steel hardened to RC-61, and it comes with a diamond steel. I've never used a diamond steel, but I don't see that it will do as good a job as my water stones do. As far as I can tell it's roughly a 600 grit or 25 micron dimaond steel.

My question is; is there a benefit to purchasing a ceramic steel, or combination diamond/ceramic steel rather then using water stones? The DMT ceramic steel for example is in the 7 micron region, while I can happily hone on an MDF grinding wheel with Verita honing compound to 0.5 micron.

Actually, I guess the question is two fold: 1) Sharpening in the kitchen on the fly requires a steel, do I bother with a ceramic or combination steel? 2) With a quality carbon steel blade and a good honing process in the shed, is there any need to have a steel at all? Will the edge last long enough not to need one an on-the-fly solution?

I know something about sharpening a blade, not I'm not that handy with a knife. SWMBO is very handy with a knife, but couldn't sharpen one to save her life. Any advice is appreciated.

Dave.

[Pops]

Hi Dave,

First up, I am no expert on knives or sharpening, (or anything really) but,... I do love knives and have many and I do like them sharp in the kitchen.

I reckon nothing beats a good workshop setup for re-sharpening worn knife blades, i.e. ones that have the edge worn down into the taper too far and need the primary taper reset or re-ground.

If the taper is OK, (leads to a fine enough edge) then I use a ceramic steel on the softer steel blades and a diamond steel on the harder steel blades. The diamond steel is well worn now and quite smooth compared to a new one. I find the diamond steel is too agressive on the softer blades, (like Wusthof and Zwilling Henkels) but great for the harder Victorinox blades, (I like these knives, the 250mm is a beauty). Nobody goes near my knives with a steel but me, so I can preserve the natural steeling angle I have got used to.

So to answer your question: YES, it is worth having a steel in the kitchen to touch up blades on the fly, to keep that edge super sharp. That is a definite YES for me, simple convenience. The knife will stay sharp longer, you don't need a 10,000 grit edge on a kitchen knife, in my opinion. I know RC61 is pretty hard for a kitchen knife but I would be very careful, gentle with a new diamond steel and would rather use a ceramic steel instead. Use the diamond steel for a while on all your other knives, to wear it in before touching your nice new knives.

If I was in your shoes I would buy a ceramic steel and lightly touch up the blades as required. Head for the shed only when it takes too long to get a good edge with the ceramic steel.

There are some good threads here on sharpening knives and steels with views by people far more qualified than I to advise you. A search might help with the more techical aspects of knife sharpening, steeling angles etc.

Me, I keep it simple, KISS, ceramic for the soft ones and worn diamond for the hard ones. And off to the shed and stones only when needed.

Out of interest, you wouldn't have a photo or two of your laminated blades would you? Pretty please. Did I mention I love knives.

Cheers
Pops

[China]

As Pops said if you use a diamond steel every time you touch up your knife in the kitchen you will ware them out in no time, you should only resort to a diamond steel when the edge can no longer be formed on a normal steel (ceramic/steel)

[kman-oz]

When they arrive I'll post a pic Pops, they're coming from WA. Breaking in the diamond steel sounds like a good idea, wouldn't hurt to practice on the old set either, thanks for that.

I did a bit more research on the steel used in the knives, it's VG-10 high-carbon stainless steel, which according to my research is fairly good on all fronts (hardness, durability, stain resistance, edge retention, yet still easy enough to sharpen).

I've never had any success with a standard steel... might have to buy myself a ceramic steel then :)

[Pops]

Hi Dave,

They sound like a Top buy. Will keep an eye out for the pics.

As far as a steel goes, I reckon keeping a consistant angle, blade to the steel is the important bit. Have found that the more consistant I was with this the quicker the job got done and the better the result. Practice. Sort of like freehand chisel sharpening I guess. So if you spend some time on your old knives with a ceramic steel, (or the new diamond one) practice you will get, and it will be well worth it. Again, just my opinion. Happy sharpening. :)

Cheers
Pops

[Grahame Collins]

Hi Dave ,
I would be extremely hesitant to use your diamond abrasive on the knives especially if they are top grade.

Knives are unique in that different makes of knives respond to different stones. I have about a dozen different types of stones and abrasives from Japanese water stones to ceramics,natural stones and synthetic sharpening stones.
They all sharpen different knifes.
.
That is, after I can hone the correct angles .If the primary angle is not correct ,forget it. In your case the hardness is a few points higher than the norm ,so I am inclined to think you gave got some quality blades there.Japanese Global perhaps?

Most of my sharpening is done by hand on ceramic and leather barbers strop.I can sharpen all of our kitchen knives to shaving sharp. The ceramics are so smooth they are shiny and my knives deposit a smooth dark grey smear on the stone.The edges are effectively polished.

Perhaps a ceramic stone may be the best to start with as i get the best overall results from it.

It will take time to get the correct cutting edge. If you are new to sharpening Japanese laminated knives a a look at this site may help you.
http://www.fine-tools.com/G10002.htm


Grahame

[kman-oz]

Thanks Grahame. Here (http://www.kitchenwarehouse.com.au/index.cfm/fa/product.detail/productID/541) is an example of what's in the set; it's a set of Scanpan Damastahl knifes. I have a feeling the lamination is mostly cosmetic, but by all accounts they're pretty good gear. The set comes with a diamond steel, seems fair to me that it should be appropriate for the task.

Up to now I've been sharpening knifes on an indian stone, and more recently water stones with great success, but it takes an aweful long time. With the cheap knives we're currently using there really isn't any point because within a week there useless again. I'm hoping the new set will hold an edge long enough to justify spending the time to sharpen them properly.

[kman-oz]

I'm happy to report that they really are quality knives. Heavyish, with a fairly meating edge to which the bevel is applied, awesomely sharp out of the box. They're a slightly different style so they're taking a bit of getting used to.

As for the diamond steel, I love it! Put a fairly good edge back on the old knives in no time, though I think a ceramic would compliment this very nicely. That's on my Christmas shopping list I think :)

Here are some pics Pops. As I suspected, the damascus style lamination is purely cosmetic, in the third pic you can see quite clearly that the core of the blade is a single thick forged peice. I gave the paring knife a quick once over the stones this evening and it's sharp enough to shave with now :D

[Pops]

Hi Kman-oz,

Now is time to stock the kitchen up with band aids. :) Every time I sharpen up friends' knives, (ones that have been dull for a long time) somebody cuts themselves. Just not used to very sharp knives.

Glad to hear that you are happy with your purchase.

Cheers
Pops

[prozac]

I don't know a lot about sharpening knives, but I did read recently that you should use a steel every time you use your knife (I do not...about once a week), and you should only use a ceramic sharpener about once every 12 months because it will wear the knife down quickly if used frequently.

[Doughboy]

I sharpen on the stone every month and use the steel every five minutes or so depending on the item I am cutting.

I have to say that I am a chef and obviously use a knife a great deal more than in a domestic situation. Nevertheless I recommend using your steel fairly frequently and your stone every six months or so.

As for wearing out your knife quickly I have a 14 inch Gibson and Patterson knife that I have had for 24 years which I sharpen on a waterstone and steel, sharp enough to dry shave with, this knife will see another 24 years I reckon.

Diamond steels are ok for using on a blunt knife but I believe they are too abrasive to use on a regular basis, they tend to leave a very coarse edge on the knife and this edge usually does not last long. The idea of a steel is to hone to a fine edge and for this you need an almost smooth finish on your steel. (an uncle of mine used to use a long philips head screwdriver as a steel, he said it was cheaper than a good steel and it had more uses!!!)

Good luck with the knives and remember it is better to cut yourself cleanly with a sharp knife than to 'rip' yourself with a blunt one.

[kman-oz]

The idea of a steel is to hone to a fine edge and for this you need an almost smooth finish on your steel. (an uncle of mine used to use a long philips head screwdriver as a steel...

By that reasoning, I've been thinking that a steel might also act like a burnisher. I may not necessarily need to be abrasive if it's capable of forming an edge like a burnisher does perhaps?

[sumu]

Hello,

Nice knives, would be nice to hear how they work.


By that reasoning, I've been thinking that a steel might also act like a burnisher. I may not necessarily need to be abrasive if it's capable of forming an edge like a burnisher does perhaps?


Polished hardened steel does exactly that, but be really careful not to chip the hard edge. I have come up to a conclusion that it's best not to burnish very hard edges with a similar touch as burnishing softer hardened stainless steel edges. Generally I do not like to use the steel stick on anything harder than 60 Rc. But If there is a need for that, an oval shaped stick is then the best, does not concentrate the pressure of a small radius stick against the edge side. Larger radius is better, but if having round cross-cut, they are also heavier, so go for oval cross-cut.

I used to work in a big salmon fish farm where we used extensively Wengers and Swibos for fish cutlery. The main reason was that stainless blade took the sea environment and they were possible to desinfect with hot steam and put in the dishwashing machine. Those knives are made from AISI 4xx, possibly 420, and hardened up to about 56 Rc. They take very good edge with both abrasive and polishing stick.

My sis is a fan of japanese-style kitchen knives and damasteel. If you don't mind, I'll copy your brand of knives and buy similar kind of set for her for Xmas.

kippis,

sumu

[Pops]

Hi Kman,

Thanks for the photos mate. I went and had a look at these on the weekend. I really liked them, (better in the flesh even). The curved handle is very comfortable in the hand.

Good choice there I reckon. Should last out your kitchen days with blade to spare.

Touched up my old SS Barclay cooks knife last night on the very old and worn diamond steel. Cuts tomatoes like nobody's business now.

Hope you enjoy your new knives.

Cheers
Pops (still with all my fingers) :)

Hi Sumu,

I played with the Japanese style of Kman's knives on the weekend too. they also are very nice in the hand, and they look good too, same damasteel look. Your suster will be very impressed with them. :)

Cheers
Pops

[kman-oz]

I honestly can't comment on the performance of these knives other than to say they stay very sharp and take very little effort to touch up. This in itself is reason enough for me, because I got very lazy with the cheapies purely because the edge didn't last. These are worth touching up often. About the only thing that stands out to me is the balance; they have quite a heavy handle which suits me, though none of the knives that I purchased has a particularly long blade (<20cm) so I'm not sure how this applies to the long kitchen knives.

The wife certainly loves them though, every time she picks one up she comments on the ease of use and sharpness. They are a little heavier than she's used to, but they also have a considerably thicker blade and larger handle. It's funny to note that they get used where she might normally have used scissors or something :) They certainly hold their own in the kitchen! Though the cross grain cutting board isn't holding up :(

Thanks for the perspective on burnishing sumu. I haven't tried the old steel yet, thus far I've only used the 4000 water stone, I'll give that a go next... maybe the ceramic isn't required?

Dave.

P.S. I didn't have good light to take these photos and they don't do the knives justice. The appearence is quite striking in the flesh. No injury pun intended :)

[A-Marks]

I love having sharp knifes.

I have been sharpening the same set of knives for 25years and they are still roughly the same size.
they were all good quality to start with and I assume are still. I like F Dicks and find the flexible blades are more hard wearing than the average boner. for carving I use a flexy roast carver they are about 350mmx25 and quit a job to hone but I digress,

I have had two steels and one stone
the stone is carborundum
the steels were both Cambrian (the white handled ones common in butcher shops) I gave my first one to my brother and bought the second in a finer grade than my first - It works Great!

I only have to use the stone if the knife has a nick or the edge is so dull it requires setting, as my wife uses them and never steels them it happens from time top time.

A chef showed me how to sharpen and he said to always use water with a little detergent as a lubricant and a spray bottle to apply more water quickly since then I just have a glass of water and use my fingers
to flick it on.

I only need my knifes to be razer sharp and prefer the carborundum stone as it brings up a wire edge very quickly I also like to keep the roughness that the stone gives. This is easily removed by steeling,
Once the initial steeling is over (about a minute) I then increase the angle of the blade to the steel and hone it some more. I don't know why but this seems to make the sharpening last a lot longer and need honing a lot less and a razer edge is pretty much guaranteed.

I really don't think you need anything fancy to sharpen a knife just buy an el cheapo and practice, practice, practice, then get it on with your good Damascus ones
good reading can be found on the subject here

http://www.instructables.com/id/Knife-Sharpening-Tricks/


I hope this is of assistance.

[hybridfiat]

I am trained in the knife sharpening skills for boning meat so the style may differ from what you are used to. Just briefly, the "steel" should be a very hard high carbon smooth magnetised form of steel. The profile is a matter of personal choice. It must be smooth or you are going to wreck the carefully prepared edge.
To prepare the edge, first ensure that the blade is flat with NO secondary bevel. This may require hours of backbreaking work on a coarse stone. Then go to the smooth 1000 grit finishing stone, raise the edge 7 degrees and working from ferrel end to tip and edge first carefully put a micro-bevel on the edge. 3-4 strokes should do it if the sides of the knife are indeed flat. Dont work the knife backwards and forwards, it should be one smooth controlled pass over the stone stopping with the tip ON the stone dont run over the edge. OK 3 passes later check for a wire edge. If there is one, one stroke in each direction at the 7 degrees until it is gone. Clean the stone frequently to ensure the bits of wire edge dont chip the new edge. Then steel it. 7 degrees and if you arnt used to steeling a knife pretend you are sharpening a pencil and do it away from you .
Fewer accidental cuts this way.
Each time you sharpen, flatten the sides, it sounds like a chore but once the initial work is done it is easy to maintain.
We did this up to 8 times a day inthe boning shed and the knives cut very very well.
We never used a finer stone because the knife has to have a slight roughness to the edge in order to çatch on the meat or veges. If the edge is too smooth it will not cut as well. Bizarre but true. Nobody ever used the soft razor stones of 4000 or 6000 grit, I tried once but the knives did not cut well.
I hope this is of some use.

[NeilS]

We never used a finer stone because the knife has to have a slight roughness to the edge in order to çatch on the meat or veges. If the edge is too smooth it will not cut as well. Bizarre but true. Nobody ever used the soft razor stones of 4000 or 6000 grit, I tried once but the knives did not cut well.

Hybridfiat made a good point here. This is also well understood by the Japanese blade masters, but in their case they use natural stones to achieve this. Natural waterstones are never completely homogeneous, being a mix of grit sizes that create micro serrations along the edge. But, being more expensive than man-made waterstones, and also harder and slower to use, would not be practical for a boning room.

However, one of the benefits of natural finishing waterstones is that they will create this serration effect right up into the finer grit sizes, starting at about #12,000 and going up from there.

Of course, the big difference between the Japanese blade edge steel and western blades is the hardness. Some of the edges on my handmade Japanese knives are as high as C65. Far too hard to be cutting bone or steeling, but once properly sharpened they retain their super sharp edge for ages. One knife that was fully sharpened when it arrived from Japan (with Yasuki blue steel edge) was still thinly slicing ripe tomatoes in our kitchen nine months later after being used every day for slicing vegetables and meat. I say 'slicing' and not 'chopping'. These high C blades are too hard for chopping, they are designed for slicing. Think of the serrations on your bread knife and how it slices bread rather than chopping it. The bread knife is a gross example of edge serration, but the principle is the same.

I don't own a steel, just a swag of waterstones which I get out about every 3 or 4 months and spend an hour or two bringing the edges back up to super sharp. My knives are always very sharp and visitors have to be warned as they are mostly not used to sharp knives. The down side of this is my family and friends now arrive with their knives to be sharpened...:doh: That's when the I need the diamond stone to reconstruct the edge profile ready for the waterstones.

Neil

[sumu]

Aye, knife sharpening is an art of it's own, especially for stainless boning knifes in industrial food processing. When I was a student, during summer holidays I worked at fish farm. I still occasionally help my father-in-law as an assisting butcher in his pig farm. The requirement of hygiene for food processing tools has attached to me pretty permanently, and that's why I have in our home kitchen only plastic handled Swibos, F Dicks and Victorinox stainless knifes of different sizes and styles, just because I can throw them in the dishwashing machine after use.

Victorinox and F Dick seems to use 420 steels, tempered somewhere around 54-58 Rc. Swibo is quite a much of similar kind. These not so hard tempered stainless edges can be treated by steeling without severe edge chipping after a quite coarse grit stone. Steeling does not remove the coarse stone induced microserration, it only bends and aligns the tips of the serration "teeth" in a single line. That kind of edge works very well for cutting soft food tissues.

I have a swedish Dianova Lapstone diamond sharpener for my kitchen knifes. It is two-sided, 60 and 30 micron surfaces. It can be cleaned with a dishwashing soap and water. Does not rust or erode. The steeling rod needs indeed to be very hard and polished. I have an oval steel rod, where larger radius side works quite well in aligning the edge, and it is not that heavy to use, either.

Kippis,

sumu

[Petethebutcher]

Steeling does not remove the coarse stone induced microserration, it only bends and aligns the tips of the serration "teeth" in a single line.
IThe steeling rod needs indeed to be very hard and polished. I have an oval steel rod, where larger radius side works quite well in aligning the edge,
Kippis,

sumu[/quote]

And hybrid with his magntised steel.

Spot on.

A steel steel stops a blade from getting blunt as quick and removes any fragile bits of the edge so they don't end up in your food.

I have seen fanaticial people blunten a new steel to completely smooth on rock /stone or emery paper and then use acid to etch some very very fine cutting edges/serrations onto the smooth steel.


My 2 bobs worth and I need to drive this a bit better next time.
Peter

[barnsey]

As the only one in the family with any sense about a sharp edge I am constantly out with the Victorinox steel on the Victorinox knives and a couple of el cheapo others.

SWMBO likes the tempered glass cutting board:oo:

I use the brush box slab

They stick em in the dishwasher - I wash and put in the knife block otherwise they will rattle around on or in the sink:no:

Very rarely do I have to take a knife to the workshop for serious honing - really only when the blade profile needs to be restored. The traditional steel is all I need to keep an edge to do the job at hand. If you need more than that - change your butcher!!!

The exception is probably the bread knife - use a stone to put the tips back on that the glass board removes:(

Have not tried ceramic or diamond steels and if anyone can tell me why and how much better they might be I'll listen but a good quality steel for home kitchen use seems more than adequate to me.

SWMBO now uses a steak knife to cut up stuff as the sharp bits scare and damage her:rolleyes:

Hate to use a saw in her workshop:~

Just my experience

[Dave_KB]

When I first started sharpening my kitchen knives I found it hard to do freehand with a stone.

I made a jig to point me in the right direction.

I detailed it here:

"http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/807025/"

[J.E. Mike Tobey]

On well hardened steels in the 60C+ range, the typical textured honing steels will chip out the edge-they murder a good Japanese knife in moments. A diamond won't tear and the rate of steel consumption is proportionate to the physical force applied. But, saying that, I never use anything but an 8000 waterstone or translucent or Black Arkansas on a Japanese knife. The steel in your new knives is very good and very tough. I recommend gentle use of diamond stick, and a hard Arkansas for edge configuration.Just Ole' Lefty

[NeilS]

..the typical textured honing steels will chip out the edge-they murder a good Japanese knife in moments...

I'm with Tobey on this one. Grandfather's steel is knocking around in the back of a drawer somewhere with his old Sheffield Sundaty roast carving knives, where I think they belong together...:)

It's waterstones for the C60+ hand-forged Japanese knives (and diamond if a lot of metal removal is needed) in my kitchen and wood workshop.

Neil

[rsser]

Leonard Lee's book on Sharpening has a chapter of knives:

Bevel angle is also a key consideration.

...

My SO used slicing knives for chopping, levering and generally butchering; wouldn't take advice so I got my own set. Use a pair of ceramic V wheels for freshening the edge, and now have a wet grinder to reset the bevel from time to time. Used to do this freehand on an 80 grit Alox wheel but that consumed too much steel.