Table Saws

[ChrisS]

I am currently looking at the best way’s to make a straight cut for panels at a reasonable price.

I have a Makita compound that keeps me happy with cross cuts of most timbers but when I start working with wider planks, panels or ripping down, this is not of much use to me. I have been though the process of making jigs to use with my hand held circular but it seems that you can never get it just right. (And like most, I have used a straight edge as a fence)

I am considering a table saw but am still uncertain about the capabilities. I have read a lot of the messages on this forum but still don’t have the info I need. I have checked out some product sites but I need to be armed with the key questions to ask before I talk to salespeople.

1. What are the saws available in the lower price bracket (<$1,500) that would be suitable and have a good quality. (I am no millionaire)

2. What are the things to check out when buying a table saw

3. If you have a panel 2000x700 and you want to cross cut it to 1950x700 how do you achieve this on a table saw? I assume that you need to build/buy some sort of extension.

4. When we talk of a “Sliding Panel” on a table saw, is this simply a carry tray for the piece being cut that fits into the groove on the table top?

5. Contractor or Cabinet? (I am thinking contractor because they appear a little more portable)

I hope these questions don’t seem too silly, but if I am going to spend a grand upward, I want to make sure that I understand the limitations of the products.

Any info and comments would be appreciated.
:confused:

[DarrylF]

A table saw is a major purchase - apart from costing more than most tools, you'll wind up using it a lot if you're like me and do a fair bit of panel work, ripping timber down etc.

1. I'd look at Jet and Delta as the main quality options. There are a bunch of others, but all of them have major drawbacks in one area or another.

2. The first thing is the top - cast iron, standardish size, mitre slots etc. Needs to be flat - otherwise you're always chasing your tail trying to get square cuts.
Second MAJOR thing is the fence. If it locks front & back, forget it - complete pain in the ass and won't stay straight. It needs big, solid rails, to lock at the front, and when locked the back should not move AT ALL, no matter how much pressure you put on it.
Ideally dust extraction should be built in, but this can be rigged pretty well with a contractors saw.

3. I doubt most of us have enough room for a saw with a big enough table to do this properly, but you can rig an extension on the left of the blade (roller stands?) and cut off the short piece.

4. Sliding panels for most saws bolt onto the left side of the top, and usually also onto the body of the saw and yes, carry the piece being cut. they improve accuracy and help a lot with panel cutting, but personally I don't see much point in a small/cheap one, and don't have room for a proper one.
You can build something the Yanks call a 'Dubby Sled', which is essentially a flat panel of MDF or ply that has a key for the mitre slot and runs right next to the blade. It has a fence at the leading edge and you sit a panel/board on it, push it against the fence and cut. Helps a lot squaring up panels & cross cutting boards square. Build a couple different sizes.

5. Cabinet if you can afford it. Neither is portable as such - the cast iron top and 2hp+ motor on most of them weigh a ton. You can buy or build a mobile base to move it around your workshop when needed, but taking it to a mate's place to do some work is pretty much out of the question.

When I started up one of the first things I bought was a contractor's saw. Cast iron top, 2hp, 12" for around $1,000. The fence was completely useless. Couldn't hope to cut anything properly with it. Bought a $250 aftermarket fence. Slight improvement, but still basically useless. I wound up taking it back and buying a Biesemeyer fence from Carbatec for $700. Brilliant. Damn near the perfect fence IMHO. But that meant I spent $1,700 all up anyway, plus I had to build extension tables, a base cabinet and rig dust extraction.

I would have been better off to spend maybe $2,000 and get a Jet cabinet saw - but I'm a picky bugger :)

The one golden rule seems to be buy the best table saw you can possibly afford. With care a good one will last you a lifetime.

[Vonrek]

Hi Chris

This is more an answer to your very first statement, the one abaout making starigt cuts in panels at a reasonable cost.
Festool have a a very unique plunge saw and guide rail system which may suit your purpose. I have heard nothing but rave reviews about the Festool stuff but it is quite pricey and i don't have it myself to comment. But you could go to the festool website to get an idea. Also check out www.woodshopdemos.com not only as one of the best WW sites on the web but for complete reviews and real product demos of some of the festool gear, including the plunge saw a guide rail system. Carbatec have the 160mm plunge saw and 1.4 m of guide rail for $799.
Obviously not the same overall capabilities of a table saw but if you want mainly the ability to size large panels it may be an option.

Cheers
Tim

[ChrisS]

Darryl,

Your info is very useful. (And I don’t think I will be taking it to a mates place. I am just looking for portability in the garage so that I can move it around for the long cuts. Of course the car and other tools and rubbish lying around needs room too).

A point on the roller stands. Is the type with ball bearings be more functional than a straight roller or does it make no difference. (I assume that 2 or 3 of these would be handy to have around).

[ChrisS]

Tim,
Thanks for the info.

I took a browse of the Festool but this looks like a hand held with a guide system attached. I could probably rig a guide system with two bits of 2x1 and a few clamps for only a few dollars vs $799. (All be it the product is probably simple and accurate and would take a lot less setup).

I think I like the idea of a table.

[kenmil]

Originally posted by ChrisS


A point on the roller stands. Is the type with ball bearings be more functional than a straight roller or does it make no difference. (I assume that 2 or 3 of these would be handy to have around).

A point on roller stands. Using them for outfeed, is likely to cause you problems, as they have to be at exactly 90 degrees to the blade or they will pull your work into or away from the blade, and you will get a kickback of significant proportions. Most pros recommend that they not be used. The ball bearing stands are less of a problem as they roll in any direction.

[Jim Grant]

After reading this thread it has me thinking about the saw that I had selected to buy this Christmas. It is the Carba-Tec TSC-10HB tilting arbour saw. One of the reasons for selecting this saw is that it will accept dado cutters. If anyone has experience or an opinion of this machine I would be grateful. Is the fence accurate or will I have to spend more than the $1,500 to get a goood saw that will cut square?

[DarrylF]

Jim,

I've looked at the TSC-10HB myself. It's a nice machine for the money. The fence is OK - definitely much better than the cheaper ones, but a little small and not as solid as a Biesemeyer. The fence I have has a front rail about twice the size and allows cuts with the fence at up to 51".

At 192Kg it's certainly solid enough :) It's a good option I think.

I think my next saw will be the Jet JTAS-10XL - 3hp, triple belt drive, 50" fence - $2,750 list. http://www.gregorymachinery.com.au/equipment_catalogue/saws/tablesaws/jet_jtas10xl.htm

Another good option could be the Jet JWCS-10LFR - 2hp, twin belt drive, 30" fence - $1,955 list.
http://www.gregorymachinery.com.au/equipment_catalogue/saws/tablesaws/jet_jwcs10lfr.htm

You could do a lot worse than the Carbatec machine Jim - it has all the basics, tilting arbour, handles a dado set, proper dust extraction etc. You could always upgrade the fence later if you find it a little lacking.

[kenmil]

I have the Jet JWCS- 10 and can highly recommend it.

[Daniel]

On Wayne Davy's site he had a sheet cutting saw that he made himself, you see these saws at hardware store's, good for breaking down sheets into workable sizes.

His site address is as below, when I checked it seemed to be a dead link but it may just be a server related problem.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wayne_davy/

Daniel

[q9]

I think Wayne moved to broadband and hence is address moved too. Here is the correct link:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/waynedavy/

[John G]

Darryl,
About the fence, you say "If it locks front & back, forget it". I'm just trying to figure what you mean.

Are you saying avoid fences that use a front and rear rail? The locking on these work by putting the fence in tension between the rails. I thought this was great because the rear of the fence won't move.

Unlike a Biesemeyer, which is a T-square type fence with only one rail? Doesn't this compromise the rigidity of the rear of the fence?

[DarrylF]

John,

The fence should definitely have a solid rear rail - otherwise the extension table will never stay flat & square. The Biesemeyer has a seriously solid piece of steel angle at the rear - no chance of flexing it.

The fences that lock front & back are bloody hard to adjust so they lock in both places properly, and they have trouble sliding back & forth. Basically they only lock at the back in most cases because they're built so lightly that locking only at the front would be ridiculous.

The biggest problem with front & rear locking fences however is that it's near impossible to keep them parallel to the blade consistently. Because they flex while not locked, and the locking mechanism at the front is not strong enough to bring it back to square, it locks fine - but out of square.

The Biesemeyer will flex slightly when not locked - well, not flex, but the rear end will move out of square slightly, maybe 1mm at the rear. When you lock it in place, it will bring it back to square absolutely every time.

Also, with a cheap fence the alignment of the fence to the blade will change over it's travel. Because the front rail is either bent, or flexes, even if the fence locks to the rail well, the alignment to the blade will change. So you align the fence at say 200mm from the blade, move it out to cut a board at say 500mm wide and get burning, kickback or a rough as guts cut.

[Wayne Davy]

Brett and Daniel,

Yep, that's where the site is now and where it will stay (love broadband at home). http://members.optusnet.com.au/waynedavy/

John,

As for my Wall Saw, it's great for cutting panels and also for squaring up table tops (and the like) after glue up. I modeled it on the commercial Wall Saws like this one (which cost $1795!!)
http://www.gregorymachinery.com.au/equipment_catalogue/saws/wallsaws/panelpro.htm

This is mine and cost me (from memory) about $200 to make with the Alum. Post/Rails being the most expensive bit. Works a treat.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/waynedavy/images/Workshop/WallSawNoDuctYet.jpg

[mat]

If you are looking to do this on the cheap then consider the Veritas Power Tool Guide. When the circular saw is attached to the "Traveller" it cannot move away from the rail.
Slower setting up the rail for the cut than a table saw and you have to support the timber and leave a gap for the saw cut but cheap (relative to as saw table) and much smaller than a table saw.

I use one of these in conjunction with a sliding mitre saw.

[ndru]

I bought a clamping aluminium straight edge similar to that frequently used by Norm (http://www.woodbutcher.net/images/normstools/tru-grip.htm), thinking that this would result in straighter cuts. It did, but not enough because you need to keep the saw baseplate pressed up against the fence consistently as you travel along the panel. I eventually bought another guide. Using two guides allows you to trap the saw baseplate so it can't wander. A pair of these things are great for trapping any base plate you can think of, including routers. The only shortcoming is that its not so useful for ripping lengths near the end of the panel because there's nowhere to attach the second guide.

If you've ever tried lifting a 2.4 x 1.8 x 16mm panel you'll know that it will take practice to guide across a tablesaw with any sort of good control. Until I get a table saw with a serious sliding table, I'll stick to breaking down panels using sawhorses and the clamping guide.

I do like Wayne's solution. It's simple, doesn't require a huge amount of floorspace and avoids having to lift up large panels onto a cutting table or horses. Like his cyclone, its another thing to add to the list of things to make...

[derekcohen]

Wayne, your panel saw set up looks great. If I cut a lot of sheet goods, I would definitely make one like yours.

Since I mostly work with recycled timber, my need runs to resurfacing rather than cutting panels. But there are occasions when I need to cut a large sheet, or to trim a long edge. And when I do, I use a very simple jig that doubles as a guide for either my 7 1/4" circular saw or router (with a 19mm straight bit). The latter set up can also be used to joint timber.

It is made of a 2.2m long section of MDF and a steel square section, all purchased from Bunnings (for low $$). The dimensions are not critical, but the steel section should not flex. Mine is screwed along the entire length every 200 mm.

To build, simply screw on the metal guide, then cut the one side off with your circular saw, and the other side off with your router plus nominated bit size. Mark this for furure reference.

To use (you know all this ...), just lay it on the line and ... cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

And another view:

[ChrisS]

Thanks to all that replied. I have started another thread on the saw I think I want.