Scary sharp questions

[Arron]

Hi folks. I tried the scary sharp method today after reading about it on the web. My first impressions are that it is very time consuming and the results werent much better then I would have got with a stone in half the time. Still, many people seem to be sold on it so I guess I must be doing something wrong. Perhaps someone who is already proficient at the method could answer these questions.

1. What sort of glue do you use to stick the sandpaper down.
2. how big are the pieces of sandpaper you use.
3. do you use a jig.
4. do you drag across the paper on both the forward and backward stroke. I found myself cutting into the paper on the forward stroke from time to time.
5. do you always work the tool forward or backward, or sometimes crosswise or at an oblique angle.

thanks
Arron

[DarrylF]

Arron,

Every time I see this described I get the distinct impression they're using abrasives available in the US but bloody hard to get here. I've tried it once with no success.

I use a combination of a 1" vertical belt sander for a really rough edge, a coarse standard stone, a fine diamond stone and then finish on a wide stitched buffing wheel on the bench grinder, using a steel cutting compound on it. Just recently bought the buffing wheel, and I've been amazed at how well it does - leaves a mirror finish on a chisel blade and the chisel cuts like a razor. Also seems to retain an edge a lot longer.

In normal use I just touch up on the buffing wheel - takes no more than a few seconds to bring it back to a razor edge. Try it - costs around $20 odd for the buffing wheel and $8-10 for the dark grey steel buffing compound.

[Vonrek]

The whole scary sharp thing is a little too fiddly for me. Little bits of sand paper, adhesive glue spray and so on, not to mention the endless sheets of W&D you'll end up going thru. Three japanese water stones, a honing guide and a really good book on sharpening (Try David Finck's "Making and mastering wood planes" or David Charlesworth's "Furniture makng techniques" for a couple of differnt approaches) and you'll be set up for life (or there abouts). MIK International have a set that they sell with the equipment above plus more for a good price. You'll never regret spending a few dollars on good sharpening gear.

Tim

[Rocker]

I don't like the idea of sharpening your tool and then having to flatten your sharpening stone, as is necessary with Japanese water stones. For a similar price to the Mik de luxe waterstone kit, you can get three DMT diamond whetstones from Carbatec, which will stay flat indefinitely. With these and a $12 honing guide , you are all set. I am not sure a book on the subject is required - sharpening is not rocket science.

[GeoffS]

I've been using the scary sharp method for years.
1. I use W&D paper
2. Light forward pressure, particularly on the finer papers
3. I use a jig
4. I sometimes use melamine coated board instead of glass - I can see little difference
5. I use a spring clip to hold the paper, glass/melamine to the bench top - no glue
6. Work the blade mainly back and forth but sometimes all ways

My main reasons for using the method - materials are readily available, the tool is always flat and it readily sharpens wide blades.

Cheers

[Dan]

I've used a combination water stone (1200/4000) ever since Terry Gordon showed me how to use them when I was buying a couple of his planes at the Brissy wood show a few years ago. They do a good job, but like Rocker I find that keeping them flat is a bit of a brawback, the up side is they work very fast. I think if you were starting from scratch that the Diamond stones would be the best option.

Dan

[soundman]

I have been experimenting with the scary sharp method with some sucess. I have found the following.

norton do self adhesive sheet for 1/2 sheet orbital sander that are ok. up to 320 gritt (i think).

after that you have to use wet & dry.

some peoplehave made the method far more complicated than it needs to be.

the big advantage is the corseness of gritt you start with.
due to the corseness of gritt the early stages progress very fast form say 80 gritt to 120 gritt to 240 gritt.

I use a jig & find the tool does not dig in unless you skew the tool.

The article in fine wood working mentioned working the tool side to side. I can see pros & cons for this method.

I have found once past the 320 gritt limit of the adhesive paper is reached. I have had some problems with the wet & dry not remaining perfectly flat ahead of the edge thus rounding it.

I would love to be able to afford a set of diamond stones but 4 big diamond stones of similar gritts would cost me about $500.

I amvery happy with the earlier stages og th process but my method of the later stages need some refining.

yes you do consume quite a bit of sand paper, particularly the lower gritts.

I would recomend reading the fine wood working article as a reality check as I have see some very complicated takes on the method which I would not consider.

One article I saw talked about sharpening on a dozen or so grits ending in 6000 grit paper. For goodness sakes!!!

[Western Ben]

I've just started using the scary sharp method and I have to say that it appears I may have never had a sharp chisel before.
I glue the paper to the glass with 3M #77 spray adhesive(about $20 for a large can) and it keeps it perfectly flat. I start with 80 grit wet dry and work through to the 2000. I'm sure it is overkill but I use about 16 intermediate grades and find this makes it very quick. The paper is just wide enough to take my 60mm plane blade and full length of the sheet. This all fits perfectly on a sheet of glass I had. I could do with a better honing guide but so far I'm pretty impressed. It's much tidier than my old uneven oilstones, when I'm done I just tuck the sheet behind my bench ready for next time.

[Arron]

My resistance to using the scary sharp method is partly based on the fact that I have rsi and thus am not keen on doing a lot of repetitive arm movements. As the benefits seem to be mostly at the very-fine-grit end of the process, is it possible to use some type of combined method, say grinding on specialised grinder for the initial shaping and honing, then honing on a diamond stone, then finishing off with scary sharp for just (say) 600, 1200 and 2000 grits ? Is this practical ?

Arron

[Wood Borer]

I have a diamond stone and Japanese Water Stones and Delta Sharpening system (one Aluminium Oxide wheel and a horizontal water wheel).

I only use the Delta now for when one of my non woodworking mates turns up with a chisel or a plane that has not been sharpened for years and has been used on everything except wood - nails and concrete seem popular!!

The Japanese stones cut much faster than the diamond. I think this is because as they wear away, they expose new crystals to the tool being sharpened whereas the diamond tends to clog up.

Flattening is not difficult and can be done in a couple of minutes.

In my case, the Delta gathers dust, the diamond hardly gets used and the Japanese stones have their own bench (formerly used by the Delta). Their bench is close to the work bench and they get used several times a day when I am in my shed.

I recommend the Japanese Stones.

After I sharpen the chisels of my mates, I make a box for their chisels (hand dovetailed) and I never see their chisels again. I suspect they are not game to use them.


- Wood Borer

[Rocker]

Maybe a combination of a coarse Japanese stone and a diamond stone would work well. Sharpening entails producing two bevels: a 25-degree main bevel, which can be done on a grinding wheel or belt sander, so long as you can avoid overheating the metal, or else on a coarse Japanese stone; and a 30-degree micro-bevel for the cutting edge. Only the honing of the micro-bevel and the polishing of the back of the blade needs to be done on a dead flat stone. Even though a diamond stone may be a bit slower than a Japanese stone, it still only takes a couple of minutes to hone the micro-bevel on a fine and very fine diamond stone. The diamond stones are only slow if you attempt to produce the main 25-degree bevel on too fine a stone. If you use an extra-coarse diamond stone for the 25-degree bevel, it can be done quite quickly.

[Zed]

Im no expert but I was taught to use a 8 inch grinder with a soft (Pink) wheel at about 30 deg and finish with a stone at about 60deg. seems to have worked for me since my apprentaship (started 1983) without too much effort or bother - I just wish the tool rest on my grinder was larger - but then again im used to it now . I can make wood shavings float and shave hair off my arm (which amuses my wife no end).

Im sure the scary sharp method works well but I've found that the above works ok - the quality of the tool in my opinion is much more important - if you must use a jig but strictly speaking I dont think its nessesary. Maybe I'll play around once I retire....

ive seem master tradies sharpen thier chisels with a bit of wet and dry and finish thier jobs no probs - I reckon with the modern machinary avaikable these days its worth learning all those methods to preserve skill and simply for the joy of it all.

I suppose is horses for courses - I imagine I'll be flamed now for my pig ignorance !! :D

[derekcohen]

Hi all

My feeling about sharpening is that it is a personal thing, and what works for one may not work for others. I have tried most (not all) and only offer my own experiences for general consumption.

Like Wood Borer I prefer using Japanese waterstones, of which I have 800, 1200, 4000, and 6000 grits. I then move to the Veritas green "crayon" for final honing (rub this on a piece of MDF and sharpen on that - better than a leather wheel). Once a chisel or plane blade has already been fully sharpening, I find that I only use 4000 and up, sometimes only the crayon.

I still use the SS method, but this is limited only to the coarser grades of sandpaper for initial flattening or bevel forming. SS is an expensive (in the long run) and dirty method.

I also have used diamond stones in 180, 280, 360 and 600 grits. There are a few problems with these. Firstly, they wear out and, therefore, are the most expensive of all methods. Secondly, diamond stones are NOT recommended for laminated blades (I don't know the ins-and-outs here, just passing on advice from someone in the business whose opinion I respect). I have several Japanese chisels with laminated blades. My diamond stones are mostly used now to flatten my waterstones.

Waterstones are probably the least expensive of all methods when you take into account longevity. They do not dish easily, in spite of what has been said here. They do need to be kept flat but this only takes a few swipes.

On a point of note, comparing grits across formats is very tricky. As a rule of thumb, a 600 grit wet-and-dry sandpaper is equivalent to a 1200 King waterstone (not necessarily other brands) and a "fine" diamond stone.

Some blades respond better to an initial hollow grind. For example, the HNT Gordon would be one. These have 1/4" thick blades and a hollow grind says a lot of time and energy in sharpening. I would not do this with a thin Stanley blade, which requires all the extra support it can get for rigidity.

One of my tests for sharpness is to slice end grain in soft wood, such as pine or ceder. Does it cut cleanly (sharp) or crush the timber (blunt)?

I still use a Veritas guide a lot, but increasingly I am just doing it freehand. Interestingly, I find that I am getting a better edge from freehand sharpening than when I use a jig. I rest the bezel flush on the stone and push away, with thumbs down low. Only one direction (at this time). I also sharpen on the length, that is, running the blade sideways rather than forwards/backwards. This increases the chance of maintaining a uniform edge. All this is also very quick to do - no fussing with jigs and angles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

One more SS item:

Instead of W&D sandpaper, try using drywall sandpaper (the one that looks like a charcoal mesh). It cuts more rapidly than W&D.

So far I have found 120, 180 and 220 grit. Anyone know where to get a wider range of grits in Perth?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mat]

So what are the methods used to flatten a waterstone?:confused:

[Wood Borer]

A sheet of glass, some grit and water.

The glass is to provide a flat surface.

The grit can be purchased although I of one woodworker who uses fine beach sand. Sprinkle the grit on the glass and carefully put some water on it.

Lightly rub the stone on the grit in figure 8's or whatever pattern gives an even wear on the glass. The stone being softer than the glass will wear faster than the glass and become flat.

The glass will beome "frosted" with all the scratches.

The whole process takes 3 or 4 minutes.


- Wood Borer

[derekcohen]

Mat

As I mentioned, I use one of my diamond stones, usually the coarsest one (180 grit). Rub/sand the top of the waterstone diagonally (both ways - left and right). What you will see is the hollow in the centre of the waterstone. This will be a different colour to the rest of the stone. Keep sanding this way until it goes.

As a rule of thumb, the higher grits (4000 and above) are quite hard stones and relatively good at holding their flatness (for a few blades at least). It is the softer, lower grits (1200 and below) that are more susceptible to wear. Fortunately we use them less.

I tend to use a diamond stone on the waterstone immediately before sharpening anyway. Not to flatten it, per se, but to create a slurry. The slurry (= mud) aids the sharpening action.

Another way to flatten waterstones - should you not have handy diamond stones - is to rub them on a rough FLAT surface. Some use clinker bricks, others concrete floors You can even use a coarser grade waterstone.

Hope this all helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mat]

Thanks for the replies.
Are the cleaning stones sold for waterstones also used to flatten the waterstone?

[silentC]

I might be tapping into this thread a bit late (been away at Rugby and Melb. Cup) but it seems to me that the main disadvantage of SS is the waste. I've used it a couple of times since discovering it and it produces great results but the volume of 'consumables' is a concern.

On the other hand it's dead easy and very cheap to set up. All you need is a piece of glass and a jig. I made mine from a bit of 4x2 hardwood. In the long run you most likely lose out on the cost of the W&D but I guess stones need replacing every now and then too. I only use four grits (that's all I can get at the local hardware shop) so that cuts the cost down a bit.

The results I get are light years ahead of what I can get with the old double-sided oilstone that I've been using up till now.

[Eastie]

I found the ss method good for quick and reasonably cheap results for occasional use. Shoping around I found ½ sheets of 2000 & 2500 grit hermes for about $1.80ea. I’m not sure if this is good or not but combine it with a few full sheets of wet n dry it’s very affordable to anyone who wishes to experience what it’s like to have truly sharp tools.

My main curiosity was that I’ve used many hand tools sharpened by others that were noticeably sharper than I’d been able to achieve, more through a lack of trying than lack of gear. I’ve a couple of small diamond files which are good for sharpening router bits but I don’t think much of this style for larger blades.
I’ve since set up with three natural waterstones and topped it off with the veritas jig. I’ve honed a couple of blades with diamond paste and found this eliminated tearout I’d previously experienced on highly figured redgum and ironbark, but I find no other need to go this far in general sharpening.

For me the next job will be to track down some better quality plane blades – the pursuit never ends and the wish list only ever grows.

Cheers, Mark

[Vonrek]

With all of this varied information posted (all of it very useful) one might start to think that this sharpening business was a bit like rocket science and may consider purchasing a book to get some straight answers

Tim :D :D :D :

[silentC]

Well, the question is: how sharp is sharp?

Until I actually made the effort, I worked for years with what many people would consider to be blunt tools.

Some people make an artform of the sharpening process that conjures up images of Japanese tea ceremonies :D

Somewhere in between is where I'd like to be. I don't suppose a tool can be too sharp but I loaned a chisel to my Brother-in-law once and he complained that it was dangerous because he cut his finger on it. He's a chippy by the way.

I think that sharpening is just like any other skill in woodworking. You can get by with a basic understanding but the time will come when your ambitions will outstrip your skills and you will want to improve.

It's like anything in life I suppose, the more you learn, the more you realise that you don't know. It's then a matter of knowing enough to get you to where you want to go. If you want to reach the moon, then yes, rocket science will be a prerequisite ;)

[Rocker]

I think there may be some confusion concerning the sharpening angles that I referred to in my previous post and those that Zed gave. I was talking about the angles between the back face of the blade and the faces of the two bevels. Zed was referring, I think, to the angle between the back of the blade and the surface of the sharpening stone.

[derekcohen]

The Art of Sharpening

Actually, I hate sharpening. I really don't have the patience for it. It's a good thing that I have so many planes and chisels because I can move on when one no longer works. And this is exactly what life has been like until fairly recently, when I speeded up the art of sharpening (learning to do it freehand, see earlier thread). What I used to detest was the time I would have to put aside to sharpen all those planes on my shelves when I finally ran out of planes with a sharp blade.

Regardless of the method by which we choose to sharpen a blade, the aim is to create a sharp edge. End of story. Isn't it that simple? Well, yes and no.

The first point of note is that a Sharp blade comprises one edge and two sides. And if we don't reduce the blade to just two sides, we will have more than one edge. And then we have Blunt.

In a nut-shell: Sharpen the bezel (or bevel), sharpen the back of the blade, and reduce the point at which they meet to as fine a join as possible. If you hold a blade up to the light (even better, use a magnifying glass), you will see a silver line. This is light reflected from the meeting of the two sides. The thicker the line, the more Blunt the blade. The aim of sharpening is to make that line disappear. This will ONLY occur IF you sharpen BOTH sides of the blade, and keep going until it is GONE.

If you get lazy, tired, bored, etc and leave the mearest sliver of light, you have a Blunt blade.

Related to this is the Wire Edge, that is the rolled over metal fillings that you can feel with your finger on the back of the blade after sharpening the front bezel. The wire edge is Good since it lets you know that the join between the two sides has been completed. But it must go. A few strokes with the blade held flat on the sharpening surface will be enough. Don't be tempted to leave it - it may initially feel sharp, but it will role over/flatten as you plane and just obstruct the blade edge. In my experience a sharp blade does not have a rough edge, so you can feel it and not necessarily cut yourself.

Note that I have not yet said anothing about the grit level needed for True Sharpness. The question here (as in Jepargdy) is "What has the smoothest surface, a mirror or a gravel path"? Only a smooth surface will slice cleanly. Anything less will cut less. So you can decide what level of sharpness you will be satisfied with.

For myself, I aim for 6000 on my waterstones (about 2500 on W&D), plus a honing on 8000 paste.

Note, you must not move up a grit/level until the scratches of the previous sharpening are removed. Otherwise you will not have a mirror like glass, but a mirror with furrors. And that is not Truly Sharp.

Some people do indeed turn sharpening into an Art, as if it were zen. During moments of quiet contemplation I have enjoyed the rhythmic movements and sound of background music. But mostly I just want a sharp edge so I can get back to my True Love.

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Just some of my planes that need sharpening.

Regards

Derek

[rodm]

Derek,
I think you could find space for a few more.


I have always wanted to be able to produce a perfectly sharp plane iron.
It hasn't been that high in my priorities as I do not use a hand plane often. I have the patience but as yet the skill has alluded me. In the last month I have taken up the scary sharp method and am very pleased with the result. I have also followed the threads and tuned my 30 year old No 4 Stanley hanyman plane with plastic handles and my year old stanley block plane. They are very shiny and now reside in custom made wooden boxes so they do not have to fight for space with the other tools. The scary sharp method with a Veritas guide has got me close but I know it could be better. I can recommend the scary sharp method to other weekend woodworkers. In the meantime I will keep trying. By the way I now look for a reason to use a hand plane so I can hear that crisp whistle and feel the smoothness of the timber after a cut.

[Wood Borer]

Thanks Derek for the photo to of my oasis in the West.

Today I sharpened 2 planes of a turner mate using my water stones. After marvelling at the ability to shave his arms (with the sharpened blades) he is making me 3 redgum round mallets. He thinks my square beech mallet needs replacing.

The planes were a Stanley Coachman's plane (no 10?) and a Stanley bedrock which looked like a no7 or larger. The blade on the bedrock just fitted into the Veritas jig. Two beautiful planes.

This is the largest bedrock plane I have seen and now used.

If I don't reply in the next week or so, I am going troppo(er)in FNQ for work.

- Wood Borer

[rob_tassie]

three words.

ARKANSAS BLACK ROCK

try it!. The stones are expensive, but worth the dollar. I finish on mine after removing nicks and round faces off my work knives and get a shave edge every time, by hand, in a minute or two. I have managed to put an edge to a knife that had particularly good steel that allowed me to shave my chin (cutthroat style)!!!

No Kidding!

They are dear, even compared to a diamond or water stone, but damn they give a nice edge. When I have a lot of time on my hands (watching tv or similar) I break out a lansky set, wich is a great way of 'trueing' an edge again. I dont suggthis idea for a chisel or a plane, but the arkansas stone would be spot on.

The fine side of my stone only polishes and removes so little material I only use water on it as anything else is too heavy.