Natural Stones

[Sheets]

Any interest in discussing non-Japanese natural sharpening stones? I know there is another forum specifically for sharpening, but my interest is in Japanese tools, so would rather confine any talk to this forum.
Specifically, what if any, success people have had, where their stones come from, how they compare to Japanese stones (natural or man-made).
Maybe a quick yes/no from some of you before I continue/or not.

Steve

[thumbsucker]

Their are millions of old natural non-japanese stones from all over the world. An old book I have talks about people would use what ever local stone in their region and that some regions where more famous then others for their stones. The most famous natural stone is the Arkansas. The indian oil stone is simple a man made oil stone I believe.

A quick look on ebay has loots of these stones often going very cheap. These oil stones have lost favor to the Japanese water stones because the Arkansas cut slower so you have to work harder to get a fine edge. The Arkansas however are harder and therefore stay flatter longer, however with water stones like Norton, Sigma Power Series and Shapton this is less of a problem. The Arkansas also max out at 2000 grit. This is a very crude grit comparatively speaking. With Japanese stones topping out at 10,000 to 15,000 grit range. Then Diamond pastes are even finer into the 20,000 + grit or 0.01 micron range.

The only famous modern woodworker that still uses oil stones is Garret Hack, however he finishes on Diamond pastes, I think. Krenov used to use Arkansas however he stopped doing so in the late 70's and switched to water stones.

The other problem is that oil stone do not work well on harder modern steels like A2, D2, or M2, M6 etc etc. Being better suited to softer high carbon steels.

The one advantage is that Arkansas with oil will tend to not rust your tools as much. However with A2, D2, or M2, M6 etc etc and their high alloy content rust is not a real problem.

Hope that helps.

[Sheets]

Thumbsucker, that's a start for discussion. You are right about there being lots of recorded history on Arkansas stones and how they have easily been eclipsed by the availability of better stones, both natural and man-made. I'm particularly curious about lesser or unknown stones from other places.
I've had good success using natural stone from where I live, but I don't want this to be a one-sided story. There must be other people out there (hopefully on this forum) who have used their local rock to sharpen tools. I would like to find out what their experiences are. And I don't mean exclusively non-Japanese stones (as part of a sharpening system).
Anyone?

[sumu]

Hello,

Wastikivi Oy in Orivesi, Finland makes fairly good sharpening stones using phyllite, a form of quality natural mudstone. That particular species of stone has been used for sharpening literally for centuries.

I have one of their smaller stones, and although I'm mostly into Scary Mirka sandpaper, diamond whetstones and buffing compounds and wheels, it's pretty easy stone to pick up sometimes. I like to hone my puukkos with it by hand. But because I have not wide experience on natural stones, I really can't categorize them. Does not take much time to sharpen a puukko, though, this stone is pretty soft. Easy to true, too.

They make various types of stones for chefs, fishermen and woodworkers.
Despite not displayed in english catalogue, they will make and sell stones wide enough for plane irons.

Here is their website: http://www.wastikivi.fi/english.html

kippis,

sumu

[Sheets]

Hi, Sumu. Thanks for that info. This could turn out to be a geology lesson (phyllite- had to look that up). It would be interesting to know what kind of an edge it would make on a chisel or plane blade. Since you have this stone, would it be possible for you to try one of your chisels just to see what you think and assess whether its sharp enough or not?

Steve

[AlexS]

A couple of years ago I visited a shop in Kawagoe, Japan that sells blade tools and sharpening stones. (Goodwoody on these forums knows the proprieter and put me on to the shop.)

He had synthetic stones up to 12000 grit (from memory) and also a finer natural stone. And boy, were his blades sharp!

[Sheets]

Ok. I guess what I'm trying to find out is that, while we can all go shopping for stones (some people have no choice), is there anyone else like me who goes on a walk-about right where they live and pick up pieces of phyllite or slate or sandstone or whatever, and use them to sharpen tool blades? Maybe people don't know the geology of where they live. Most stone these days has other (more economical or commercial value) uses besides whetstones, even if at one time it was a common use. I know some of you are asking "why?" use anything other than what is sold specifically as sharpening stones especially at the finer grits. I'm not suggesting in any way that it there are better alternatives available for those who live on rock with the right properties. Even if finding the right stone is easy, making it a manageable size and dressing it takes time and effort that some may not be interested in investing. I'm curious. I try out different rocks to see what they can do. Does anyone else?
Steve

[sumu]

:)

You are looking for The Mythical Lapping Rock, the one that sharpened a sword so sharp that if put in the way of a felt hat slowly floating along the river flow, the hat was cut in half without slowing the speed at all :D.

I have to find that phyllite stone in my shop tonight and make a demo. I must hone the chisel freehand, because the stone is no more evenly thick, and it's too small for a jig to run over it. It's quite an old stone, so please forgive her this inconvenience :).

About natural stones, the main difficulty is generally find a piece having relative large but flat enough (and truable) surface area. Well, natural stone is a natural stone, even after cutted with a diamond cutter. Therefore one method for sourcing usable stones would be loitering around companies refining stones for flooring, fireplaces etc. Your are looking for pieces unusable in their business, so after visiting a few, there would be probably too much of test pieces in your custody. It is mainly about geology, too, but because of that incredible amount of fine variations in one species of natural stone, it is an infinite task if wanting to find the perfect one. But, I can see how much fun it might be :2tsup:.

kippis,

sumu

[Schtoo]

Ok. I guess what I'm trying to find out is that, while we can all go shopping for stones (some people have no choice), is there anyone else like me who goes on a walk-about right where they live and pick up pieces of phyllite or slate or sandstone or whatever, and use them to sharpen tool blades?

Steve

Yes, I can. :D

No, I haven't. :p

A bit more info might be needed.

Where I live is renowned worldwide for being a source of hard, black granite. Heaps of the stuff about, and it is very nice stuff. There are no stones suitable for sharpening things occurring naturally here though.

What there are a lot of are water stones bought here to polish the granite. Since the stone from here is good, so are the craftsmen, and they use lots of waterstones because they are craftsmen and do the best work they can.

As a result of a lot of waterstone being bought here to work the granite, there is a lot of waterstone just laying about. It's not like the stuff is expensive nor rare, so if a bit gets dropped here or thrown there, nobody notices.

My little boy has a passion for picking up stones (usually to drop into the storm drains), but he has picked up small pieces of stone that could easily be used to sharpen tools on. I let him drop them in the drain, because he likes to do that, and I know a stone company pretty well who has a ton or so of waterstones sitting in their factory.

Enough info? :)

[Sheets]

Well, thanks. To Sumu for being a sport and trying a tool on that native stone and to Schtoo for illustrating the varying priorities we all have in our lives. I can see it now, a hundred years in the future someone will discover a treasure trove of natural water stone at the bottom of a storm drain. Maybe it won't be that far in the future. What street is this storm drain on and how do I get there?
Anyway, there obviously isn't much discussion going on (seems I'm alone, not surprisingly, in my quest for using alternative stone), so no need to hone a dull blade with granite.
I'll add this link: http://heritage.tantramar.com/WFNewsletter_8.html which I found interesting when searching about for info on geology in my part of the world.
OK. What else can we talk about?
Steve
p.s., I use Mod Podge (also known as Podgy) to seal my stones.

[dburnard]

I'll join Sheets on that walk about. A few years back on a mtn bike ride on some local logging roads I came across more than a few outcroppings of what looked like water stone materials. There were several distinct colors and textures so on a subsequent ride with a larger backpack on I brought home a pack full of likely candidates. Flattened on the sidewalk or a cinder block. They all work, some better than others. They appear to be in the 1000-3000 grit range, The finest one polishes but has larger grit embedded with the smaller so it's like trying to use a 5000 grit stone that you occasionally contaminate with hard coarse bits. Dang!.

I looked on an old map that showed points of geological interest and saw that I had ridden along "Grindstone ridge", haven't been able to determine if they were ever actually used as grindstones, or if that's just what they reminded someone of. An interesting detour anyway.

[Sheets]

Hey, ride abouts are great, too. Two birds with one stone (or a back-pack full). I was driving home from a mountain bike race this summer when I passed a sign that said "Slate Quarry Road". Needless to say I turned and went back to investigate and found several outcroppings of slate, different that what I had from closer to home. As Sumu (and Soatoz about Japanese stones) said, there is such a range of grit within what appears to be the same rock, that sorting it out takes a long time. In Japan, they have been doing it for centuries so there are relatively many people there with the knowledge to classify what is what. I think that type knowledge once existed in other parts of the world where stone was sought out as grindstones or whetstones, but is now essentially lost. No matter.
The Slate Quarry Road (maybe 50 km from home) stuff is harder and seems free of impurities compared to what I've found more locally. Its about 1000 grit. The other (they quarry it in several spots nearby- within 10km, but it ends up anywhere they use crushed stone/gravel or drainage rock- hence is easy to find and tons of choice) has areas with much finer grit (3000 to 5000, maybe better) but its biggest problem is its usually full of pyrite. Still usable, you just have to dig the pyrite out. All this I also flatten on a concrete block.
I have some stone from Stonehaven, NB (mentioned in the article I linked to previously). It was already dressed, being left over or cast off from the business there. If I build up a slurry, it cuts fast and is about 1000 to 1200 grit. If I keep the stone washed clean, the particles are smoother and less sharp, so cuts slowly and will start to flatten the scratches from previous stages so acts like a finer stone but certainly not a finish (or Finnish- still waiting on Samu's report) stone.
And dburnard, you must have found the return bike ride home a bit more difficult?

[Clinton1]

Yep, I'm in.

I'm currently in Timor Leste (East Timor) and the local lads use found stones to sharpen their machete's and bush knives... in fact it is rare to see a grinder or file, so the stones are used on everything.

I've given it a go. Just picked up a likely looking stone and used it on a machete.
I've also used it on a few chisels... its a bit hard to justify buying a stone when they cost more than 2 weeks (or more) of an average local wage.

I have not thought about the grit or rating of the stones I use, a machete does not have have a real 'fine' edge when it gets used hard.
I'd be interested in a 'quick' way of determining grit size, purely as a mental exercise.

You can see that the small stone in the pic did a good job on the fresh forged machete... about 30 minutes to make the bevel over a 40 cm long blade and have it cutting hairs... not a real test of sharpness, but good enough for me.
It puts a 'polish'... seems to be near to 1000 grit, makes a good slurry.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/443196563_fc421add51.jpg

[dburnard]

And dburnard, you must have found the return bike ride home a bit more difficult?

Indeed. Luckily it was uphill on the way there and mostly downhill on the way home. Still, every time I went over a big bump the backpack and it's contents would try to catch some air making landing rather interesting. When I got home I weighed the pack at about 20 kg, which wouldn't have been so bad if I'd had a little padding between me and the corners of those rocks. :doh:

[sumu]

Hello,

First of all, my apologies about three things: I suddenly had to travel overnight :oo:, then it took time to find that stone in my shop :- and lastly, the stone is not Orivesi fyllite like I had thought it was :? :doh:.

I have had it for 15-16 years, I got it as a present. Like said, I havent much paid attention to it, basically only then when it pops up out of somewhere when I happen to have a blunt puukko in my hand.

I took it and one puukko with me to work this morning, intending to sharpen the blade while digesting the lunch. I showed it to my colleague more knowledgeable in geology and ceramics, and he stated in english "...and phyllite my a*s" (he is fast thinking guy also when grabbing the opportunity :D) . So it's not phyllite, but it is close relative called Steatite, one species of pyrofyllites, more commonly known as soapstone (vuolukivi in finnish).

In Finland there is small industry around local steatite mines, manufacturing stoves and fireplaces, stoneware, tiles and floorings, jewelry, loudspeaker cabinets etc. This sharpening stone might be a residue of slab cutting, further refined into as sharpening stone by drilling a small hole for a thread and the putting it for sale in a some Lappland souvenir stand.

Steatite is hereabouts not generally noticed as a dedicated sharpening stone, but because this one has really sharpened some of my carbon steel blades, then it's ok to show it out.

In the first pic (photoscanner capture) there is the stone. There is major vains and streaks, characteristical to a steatite. It also has a crack line in the other end. I sharpened the knife with water for about 20 minutes freehand, to ensure that the result would be both acceptable and as one with the stone performance.

In the second pic (very poor pics, I am sorry), there is three cuts cross grain, knife blade was pushed through the grain, slightly skewed. Cut width in the last cut is about 35 mm. The second and third cut goes also against the grain, the last one going most, about 10 degrees off straight angle.

In the third pic, I tried to capture the cut print quality. I should have used the photoscanner again, but I had no time to go back to the scanner at the time. I hope I sound believeable if I say that in the cut print, there is some minor tearout and at wood surface/ cut print surface joint, some fibers are displaced instead being cutted.

The knife is good. I takes very sharp edge, and if truly lapped, you can shave with it. The knife is made by master puukkomaker Matti Koski, and the blade is made in Laurin Metalli.

I am not affiliated with these companies except as a satisfied customer, but if you wish, please visit here for info about steatite
http://www.flinkstone.fi/index_english.html
and accesories about making puukkos and other knives
https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en&language=en


Hope it helped some. I understand that there is quite much of soapstone mining in Canada, too. How about visiting those mines to pick one, any one :2tsup:.

kippis,

sumu

EDIT: the cutted wood in question is local pine, pinus sylvestris. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Sheets]

Hi Sumu and Clinton1. Thanks for your info and pictures. This has certainly been a world-wide topic. There are probably lots of opinions on what constitutes sharp for knives (and machetes), chisels and planes. Your stones certainly work acceptably well.
I feel my original quest in starting this thread has been satisfied. Of course if anyone wants to add more, please do.
I'll throw out a few last pics
1. From the left, Slate Quarry Road, Local (two sizes, slightly different colour which really doesn't show so well) and a piece from Stonehaven.
2. Certainly sharp enough to plane wood to dimension, but not final finishing.
3. An example of one of the uses (and where I get my supply) of the local rock. Notice the finish stone on top, middle stone underneath and, of course, rough stone to start (I must remember that).
4. A likely candidate.

[NeilS]

I experimented with one of our local building stones, Kanmantoo Bluestone, when I first started to use Japanese natural waterstones. It is a micaceous siltstone from the Early Cambrain period. To me it looked similar to some of the Japanese natural stones so I thought I would give it a go. I cut a piece with the diamond saw and flattened it with diamond. The piece I selected turned out to be very hard and produced almost no slurry. Perhaps not all that different to the very hard finishing stones that the Japanese use with Nagura stone as a lubricant.

As others have said of their stone supply, after cutting many tons of Kanmantoo Bluestone I have found it to be variable in its colour, particle size, density and hardness. When I get the time, I must try some softer pieces to see how they compare. As can be seen from the picture below (workshop on left), I still have a supply to select from :)

Neil

[Sheets]

I too am curious to know how they would perform as water stones. They certainly look good in the walk and walls. There's a lot of nice stone work there (hard work too I imagine). Beautiful job Neil.

Steve