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View Full Version : Bedan Practice........... (Video)



Stu in Tokyo
5th December 2007, 05:11 AM
Well, I've been slowly getting the hang of the Bedan, I first saw this tool used by Jean-Francois Escoulen when he visited Japan in 2006, and again when he was here this fall. WAY cool tool to see in action, but not an easy one to get a handle on. If you think a skew is nasty and evil, this tool can make the skew look like a pussy cat in comparison.

I like a challenge, and Jean-Francois told me to practice 10 mintues every day, and I will improve (glad he has faith in me!). I've been doing 10 to 15 minutes ever time I get into the Dungeon to turn, I use making a couple of eggs as my "Warm up" kind of like a musician playing the scales.

I've uploaded two videos to YouTube, the first one is not the best quality, taken from my old Sony still camera, that does video, the second one is better (the video part, my turning still need work) so I hope will take a look see. If you have not seen this amazing tool in action, I hope you can see someone use it in the flesh, it is really neat, and boy does it got through the lumber in a hurry.


Bedan Practice #1 <-YouTube Link

Bedan Practice #2 <-YouTube Link

killerbeast
5th December 2007, 07:47 AM
Nice looking tool ... i can se the theory ... and as alwas soooo nice so see som live video of the use of a tool... (one that you dont have to dish out lots of money to get)

I looks like you have the toolrest faily high is that right ?

Cliff Rogers
5th December 2007, 09:03 AM
I love the bedan, BUT.... I use it the other way up & rub the bevel like a skew... dead easy that way. :2tsup:

Stu in Tokyo
5th December 2007, 01:40 PM
Nice looking tool ... i can se the theory ... and as alwas soooo nice so see som live video of the use of a tool... (one that you dont have to dish out lots of money to get)

I looks like you have the toolrest faily high is that right ?

Just above the center line, on this small piece of wood, maybe a 1/4", if that.

Stu in Tokyo
5th December 2007, 01:42 PM
I love the bedan, BUT.... I use it the other way up & rub the bevel like a skew... dead easy that way. :2tsup:

Yep, works that way, too, but you are only getting about 1/10th of the potential out of the tool if you use it that way. With the flat down and the bevel up, like I use it and Jean-Francois shows it, you can turn such tight corners and so quickly, it is mind boggling. I have some video of Jean-Francois in action, I've yet to get it all rendered yet, when I do I'll put some up.

Cheers!

ss_11000
5th December 2007, 02:05 PM
great videos stu:cool:

that tool certainly makes the job look easy! or maybe its you:cool: or both:2tsup:

Alastair
5th December 2007, 04:47 PM
Looking at the tool and video, and comparing to the skew, what is interesting is that used bevel up, you would only need to take the tool to right angles when turning a full bead, compared to the skew, when you have to over-rotate, in order to accomodate the bevel angle.

regards

Hardenfast
5th December 2007, 08:18 PM
Nice clips Stu - most informative - many thanks. What sort of drive piece are you using on the eggs?

Wayne

BernieP
5th December 2007, 08:22 PM
G'Day Stu

As usual very useful info, thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Bernie

Skew ChiDAMN!!
5th December 2007, 09:01 PM
Good one, Stu! :2tsup:

You can also make a bedan from round stock (mine are from fairly large ex-screwdrivers :roll:) and bevel both sides, so the cutting edge is the diameter of the shaft. 'Tis exactly the same to use a squared bedan, 'cept much easier to roll - which also helps to avoid some of the nastier catches.

You can grind just the one oval bevel, to give a round tip but I find it limits the type of cuts it'll do... and one of the things I like a about a bedan is it's versatility.

Stu in Tokyo
5th December 2007, 11:31 PM
Nice clips Stu - most informative - many thanks. What sort of drive piece are you using on the eggs?

Wayne

Hey Wayne, that is one that Jean-Francois gave me when he was here in Japan last time around, less to lug back to France, I guess :D

It is a dead center, like used on a metal working lathe, but he has cut a small cup drive center in it for use on the drive side of the lathe. This one is really useful, as it is LONG, I'd say it is about 8" long in total, so it gets the work out away from the head stock a bit.

Skew, you are describing what Eli Avisera uses as a Bedan, I have one of those too, it is from square stock, actually a P&N 12mm square scraper, that I shaped to use as a Eli Bedan. Eli calls it a "Beading Tool" not a real Bedan, and yeah, it sure is a LOT easier to use than a "real" Bedan :2tsup:

Tornatus
6th December 2007, 11:19 PM
G'day Stu

Thanks for the beaut videos - you have inspired me to be much more adventurous with my bedans, which I have been using very conservatively: that is, with the bevel down. I found my 10mm bedan so good for turning down spigots, pen blanks and similar, that I bought some 16mm square HSS stock and made it a bigger brother, which can really handle the tough stuff. Seeing you in action on your eggs, however, has made me realize that the tool could be great for producing the "flame"-shaped bottle stoppers I want to make as Xmas gifts. I figure can't do any worse than I already do with spindle gouges, which I find far more intimidating than the much-maligned skew.

I have actually witnessed Jean-Francois Escoulen work his magic with the bedan, and I asked him why he used it "wrong way up" (to non-French eyes). He simply gave a Gallic shrug and said he had always used it that way, ever since as a youngster he had asked his father if he could learn to turn, and his father simply handed him a bedan, walked off and left him to it! After seeing him produce his incredibly delicate, multi-centred "trembleurs" entirely with bedans, I concluded that his skill was the freakish result of a lifetime focus on the one tool, and I wasn't tempted to emulate him. Your videos have convinced me, however, that I shouldn't be intimidated and ought to give the wrong way up a right good try! :U

Stu in Tokyo
6th December 2007, 11:36 PM
Yes, J-F is an amazing turner, and one heck of a nice guy too, friendly, open and so very willing to teach.

Seeing him make the trembleursis really a treat, they seem to defy gravity!

Cheers!

Stu in Tokyo
7th December 2007, 03:43 AM
OK, I finally got around to rendering and editing some of the video I took of Jean-Francois using the Bedan...........

YouTube - The Bedan Part 1

YouTube - The Bedan Part 2

Parts one and two, together run about 16 minutes, I've relearned some things that I was missing, so back to the Dungeon for me! :D :2tsup:

Pat
7th December 2007, 06:27 AM
Stu, could you please post a close up pic of the working part of the head of the bedan. Just cannot visulise it in my noggin. I have an old round file that may be sacrificed :U

On another look, 3/8 mortice chisel?

artme
7th December 2007, 08:10 AM
Greatly appreciate all the info Stu.:2tsup::2tsup:
I have used a fairly thick parting tool in much the same manner but what I did was to sttep cut the piece and then round off. Trouble was there was not enough weight in the tool for it to do a really satisfactory job.

How many of you other forumites have used a Sorby Spindle Master or its equivalent like the on made by Hamlet? I bought the Hamlet version but health problems have kept me away from it so I don't really know how competent I will be with it. Seems to me though that the lack of square corners on this tool will make it more pleasant to use.

TTIT
7th December 2007, 09:25 AM
Hmmmm - convincing enough that I'll have to get hold of one to give it a try.:cool: Thanks for the vids Stu.

Think I've got a length of 3/8 HSS here somewhere ............

somewhere.............

Cliff Rogers
7th December 2007, 11:08 AM
I made mine from a 10mm beading & parting tool. :2tsup:

Stu in Tokyo
7th December 2007, 11:48 AM
Here are the best two pics I have of Jean-Francois's bedans, hope this helps!

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/lathe/jfe_demo/jfe_bedan_big_small1.jpg

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/lathe/jfe_demo/jfe_bedan_big_small2.jpg

Cliff Rogers
7th December 2007, 01:19 PM
Nice pics Stu.... :D

Edit, they are working now. :2tsup:

Frank&Earnest
7th December 2007, 02:28 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but why does it have to be square stock, apart pure strength? It seems only a waste of good steel to me. Is it not just a square "skew" chisel, as already discussed in another thread? Especially if beveled both sides, as Skew suggested.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
7th December 2007, 06:07 PM
If you look at it like that, almost all turning tools can be summarised as either "curved-" or "straight-edged." :U

I actually find a Bedan easier to use than a Skew, as the narrower cutting edge means it's a LOT harder to move away from the supported section when doing impromptu cuts.

Stu in Tokyo
7th December 2007, 08:23 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but why does it have to be square stock, apart pure strength? It seems only a waste of good steel to me. Is it not just a square "skew" chisel, as already discussed in another thread? Especially if beveled both sides, as Skew suggested.

No worries, love to get some questions, dunno if I can answer them, but that has never stopped me before! :B

Yes it has to be square stock, I've seen some that were slightly narrower on top section, so the top and bottom are parallel, but the sides slope inwards, the top surface is narrower than the bottom surface.

Jean was asked about this, and he says the work but they do not cut the same, as the corner is not square.

If you bevel both sides, it is no longer a "Bedan" but becomes a Beading tool, which is VERY much like a narrow fat skew, and also VERY useful.

The reason it has to be square stock is the corner does the cutting, on a round piece of stock, you have no corner to do the cutting.

Or at least that is my take on the subject.

I'm not suggesting that everyone get on of these tools or even try it, I was just showcasing a tool that is NOT very common, or popular, but for certain things does a VERY good job, with speed. :2tsup:

Cheers!

Frank&Earnest
7th December 2007, 09:29 PM
Thanks Skew and Stu. Your explanation was much appreciated and very informative, but that was not my question :). Now I need to apologise not only for my ignorance but also for my poor expression. :-

My question was not comparing square to round (the reference to Skew's screwdriver might have been confusing), was comparing square to flat. This is my reasoning: the long vertical side of the rectangular section makes sense for the very narrow bedan, because it is required for strength; but a long vertical side of 10/15mm on a width of 10mm does not make any sense given that only a couple of mm of the bevel is actually cutting and strength is less of an issue.
I do not see (this is my question) how it could possibly make any difference to the cut if the section were, say, 5mm high and 10mm wide and beveled the same. Hence my comment that more than half is IMHO a waste of good steel.

Part of the answer might lay in the angle of the bevel: I noticed that yours, Stu, is much thinner than that of JFE's. I inherited one more or less like that but square, and I was using it reversed because it looked like any other scraper to me. It certainly became one after I ground it at 60 degrees instead of the about 45 of the picture. :D

Skew ChiDAMN!!
7th December 2007, 10:25 PM
Stu, if you're limiting yourself to only the corner for cutting, then you're not using the Bedan to it's full potential. It can easily handle planing cuts and anything else that a Skew can. (The video shows you doing these cuts, too... :wink:)

F&E, I was also talking about square stock. Round ones are just a minor variation I mentioned. :) Skews and Bedans are used in slightly different ways: a Skew's a very versatile tool but safe use of it relies on bevel rubbing for decent tool support. Cutting is only done by the straight edge, so if you try to make a planing cut with the heel or point it leaves a "frayed edge."

A Bedan lends itself to aggressive cuts, using not only what we think of as "the cutting edge" but also, to a limited extent, the leading edge of the bevel acts as a shear scraper at the same time. I guess you could say it actually has 3 cutting edges. They can be used bevel up or down (I use mine both ways, depending on the type of cut I'm making. :shrug:) but either way bevel rubbing's not a major factor, so the extra thickness can mean way less chatter.

And a theoretical reason: aggressive cutting means higher heat generation and having more meat behind the edge means better heat xfer and longer edge life. This is one of the reasons why facetted bevels on scrapers isn't a good idea. Or so I was taught. It seems to work that way in practice, although I haven't actually sat down and carried out empirical experiments.

Hmmm... I should point out that the above is solely my take on things and may bear no relation to what you consider reality whatsoever. :U

Stu in Tokyo
7th December 2007, 11:40 PM
Skew, I know that you can do the planing cuts, as you said, did them in the video, but I was responding as to why the tool is square, if it was round, it would not have a corner, and on the roundy kind of cuts, you cut with the corner.

Now that I see the question was "Why square 10mm, and not say 5mm x 10mm" I would have to agree that it is for strength, you actually push hard on this tool when in use, this is not a delicate instrument, but a production tool. :2tsup:

Hardenfast
8th December 2007, 10:00 AM
So Stu, if the Bedan can be used with the bevel up or bevel down as personal preference, what's to stop one from using a standard vee sharpened 10x10 parting tool in the same manner?

Probably an ignorant question. I'll watch the videos again.

Wayne

Stu in Tokyo
8th December 2007, 12:27 PM
Jean says he only uses it bevel up.

Look, I've just started to use this amazing tool, it is not common at all, and I'm just learning, I will bow to Jean's 35 + years of expertise in the matter, when the master shows you how to use it, and tell you to practice, for the next while, I'll just practice, when I get to a point where I can use the darn thing fairly well, then I'll start to ask him a TON of questions, as I'll have a context.:2tsup:

Really, I'm just about as much in the dark as you guys are, I'm just trying to emulate what the master does, sometimes you just have to trust the guy with the ton of experience and give it a go. :D

Frank&Earnest
8th December 2007, 12:50 PM
So Stu, if the Bedan can be used with the bevel up or bevel down as personal preference, what's to stop one from using a standard vee sharpened 10x10 parting tool in the same manner?

Probably an ignorant question. I'll watch the videos again.

Wayne

Indeed I have. As Stu says, though, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, by experimenting we'll find the answers. Otherwise, we could even be forced to read the instructions!:D

Skew, all your comments make sense to me (I do not live in an alternate reality, I have not even smoked pot, ever!:D) Even accepting all of that, though, I still think that there is a certain amount of redundancy in the vertical rectangle shape.

Anyway, I have reground mine to 50 degrees, which seems to be about right (pics attached for comparison), and will watch the video again:wink:.

Stu in Tokyo
8th December 2007, 02:13 PM
From what I know and what I've learned so far, the 50 degrees is way too steep an angle, the shoulder at the corner is too high, you will not be able to get round tight corners, but hey, if you know more than someone who has been using the tool in a professional capacity for the last 35+ years, please, don't let me stand in your way! :D :2tsup:

Seriously, I'll be looking forward to hear your test drive reports! :)

Frank&Earnest
8th December 2007, 03:01 PM
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From what I know and what I've learned so far, the 50 degrees is way too steep an angle, the shoulder at the corner is too high, you will not be able to get round tight corners, but hey, if you know more than someone who has been using the tool in a professional capacity for the last 35+ years, please, don't let me stand in your way! :D :2tsup:


:? I am not inventing anything, I was trying to copy your photo and follow your advice. If I was not able to, no need to be sarcastic:), just give me the exact angle of the bedans in your photo (they look 45/55 to me and not the same for both).

Stu in Tokyo
8th December 2007, 04:41 PM
Sorry, I was trying to be funny, didn't work eh? :doh:

The angle is 30 degrees, I thought I had written that somewhere in this post, but no problem if I repeat myself!

Cheers!

Frank&Earnest
8th December 2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks Stu, that explains why yours in the video looks much thinner, as I said before. The protractor tells me that the smaller of JFE's bedans in the photo is exactly 50 degrees, even allowing for a bit of distortion due to the angle of the camera it seems rather obvious to me that it is nowhere near 30. Sorry for having been a nuisance, but there is a mixed message somewhere here.

Stu in Tokyo
8th December 2007, 10:13 PM
F&E, it must be the pics, as Jean says in the video that I put up, that the Bedan should be 30 degrees.

Don't worry about any miscommunication, text is not the best way to get stuff across, I'm sure I'm to blame in any confusion as much as anyone.

Cheers!:D

TTIT
9th December 2007, 12:50 AM
OK - I ground a 1/2" version up today and gave it a spin. I can see it could be a very quick tool and I produced a reasonably well shaped egg in a short time but I did come up against one thing I didn't like. Stu, how do you get around the sharp corners of the shank digging in to the toolrest??? :C If you round them off even a little you won't get a 'corner' if you ever grind it down that far :shrug:. I did feel it trying to catch a couple of times but was able to control it which says something for the technique - however - I don't think I will ever feel comfortable with the angle of attack and the required range of movement so I'll probably stick with the spindle gouge and skew :shrug:. Interesting exercise though :U.

Stu in Tokyo
9th December 2007, 03:07 AM
Yes, the corners of the square shaft are slightly rounded over, but not for the last inch or so. seriously, I think you will take a LONG time to wear an inch off of this tool, it is not a bowl gouge. You seldom use the grinder, mostly just touch up with a hone, and strop.

Cheers!

Frank&Earnest
9th December 2007, 04:30 PM
Yes, the corners of the square shaft are slightly rounded over, but not for the last inch or so. Cheers!

Aha! That explains why Dad had the square corners of the cutting section (must have been a square scraper after all, never had such an acute angle) ground out of a steel bar with rounded corners.

eazis1
26th December 2007, 02:28 PM
What is the best size to use as far as the length of the tool? I see thay come in 12" and 18" and also 5mm and 10mm

Stu in Tokyo
26th December 2007, 08:30 PM
I'd say start off with the 10mm square one, the shaft on mine is about 12", I guess :?

Cheers!