Advice for newbie setting up workshop

[aobed]

Hi there,

Firstly, thanks to the organizers of this forum, it's a fantastic place for people like me - just starting out - to learn from all those seasoned veterans out there.

My question is this, I would like to setup a workshop for basic cabinet making and I'm starting from scratch. My definition of basic cabinet making is the occasional bookshelf, coffee table, etc. Nothing too adventureous.. well, at this stage anyway :).

My budget is approximately $1200 with which I'm hoping to get a set of tools that will get me started.

Aside from chisels, clamps, saws, etc and a workbench the two power tools that have been suggest to me are a Slide Compound Saw and a basic router + bits.

I've looked at the Makita 7.5" for the slide compound saw and an axminster 1/2" router. I'm also thinking about investing in a dove tail jig of some description.

The last time I did any woodworking was in high school and while this was only a few years ago, all of the joins we made were by hand - so it was a revelation to see that all of the jigs, etc available for use with routers. I'm sure a few people out there will find that amusing :).

I'm attending a few courses at a local tafe here in Queensland to update me the skills, tools available - so between them and you guys I'm hoping to have enough knowledge to get out there, buy and get started :).

I'm interested to hear people's opinions.. I realise this is a super general question given the amount of tools available out there... it's a bit overwhelming really!

Thanks for any advice...

[Alex]

Wellcome

As a bloody (European) WOG even after ten years in Australia I still think european machines beating everything. I might be wrong but that is my opinion. In my gara...., pardon me, in my workshop everything is european ("Bosch", "Husquarna", "Jonsred" "Kamaz" "Skoda", "Hamlet". "Iskra".....) except a wood lathe (chinese MC 1100 with "Carba-tec" badge) and everything works immpecably good and absolutely everything is 100% reliable. I've tried some other things Chinese, Tailand, Japan, Australian, and even American things and all this lasted no more, or just a bit more than warranty. I have to admit there were no "big things", I mean not realy important machines but I couldn't rely on them so at the end of the day I went back to european machines. What I haven't tried were "JET" and "DELTA" and I cannot give a single word about them, and what I've heard (my "best man" lives in Canada - he is pretty much happy with "Grizly" products).

That was, as I've said, just my opinion and I am more than sure that this will make a big discusion about quality.

Anyway, wishig you a lot of nicely spent hours (excuse my English)

Alex

[Dean]

Hmm... if you are going to be doing cabinet work, bookshelves and the likes, I think you should consider a small tablesaw to start with. Can get a small one for around the $400 mark. Quite essential for ripping long boards with accuracy and you can do your crosscuts if you make up a crosscut sled etc.

Router will definitely come in handy, as will a drill and some cheap drill bits to get you started on a budget.

You will also need a sander of some variety for finishing. Perhaps a 1/3 sheet would be ok to begin with.

Your budget is quite tight given what you need, but I'm sure we can help with suggestions on some of the 'cheapie' tools available that do perform adequately etc.

[DarrylF]

Welcome aobed :)

For my 2c:

Given your limited initial budget, I don't think a table saw of any description is an option right now. Find a local supplier of sheet goods (MDF, Melamine, ply & veneered MDF) who can supply cut to exact sizes for you. The Makita SCMS will take care of most of the rest.

The other must haves IMHO are:

Bosch 1/2" router - a nice router that's available (along with service & warranty) just about anywhere.
Bosch random orbital sander - the smaller of the two is just fine. I have both.
A good quality cordless drill/driver - again Bosch for my money.

If you think you might be able to wait a while and stretch to shelling out $1,000-1,200 for a table saw later you'd probably pick up something reasonable, and in that case I'd hang back on the SCMS, maybe just buying a cheap CMS in the mean time. With a table saw you can do just about anything a SCMS will do, but also handle ripping down panels and ripping longer pieces to width.

Don't underestimate what hand tools, rulers, squares, clamps, hand saws, drill bits, countersink bits, screws, glue & other supplies etc are going to cost. You can kick off with a basic kit of course, but even a basic kit is probably $300-400.

Without a table saw I'd probably forget the dovetail jig for the moment - for one thing you need to be able to accurately rip boards to width then dock them to exact lengths to produce a box or a drawer - which requires both a table saw and preferably also a CMS or SCMS. If you want to produce through dovetails you'll also need a thicknesser.

Nothing wrong with going for cheap brands initially (GMC etc) for lower use tools, like a small drill press, disc/belt sander etc.

I guess my basic advice is start slow, build your tool kit over time and buy good quality.

[Daniel]

Without going into a lot of detail I would concentrate on some good hand tools because designs do not change a lot over time whereas power tool designs do.

When I say good do not get carried away with brand names either. You could buy a stanley No 4 for around $100 or a lee-Nielson for around $3-400 dollars, the stanley will do much of what you want it to do but maybe with a bit more effort though.


Hand tools:

No 4 bench plane
Tenon saw
Panel saw?
Set of paring chisels
Mallet
Warrington hammer
Ruler
Try or Combination square
Oil stone
Hand drill
Sandpaper block
Glasses
Earmuffs
Files
Coping saw


Power tools:

1/3 sheet or random orbital
71/4 power saw
Drill
1/4 inch Router and bits


There are certainly other hand tools that you can buy but get the basics first and then work from there, slowly you will build up a good tool kit.

With the money left over, if any buy the power tools above.

Daniel

[Mr. Minimax]

Before all the members of the Triton Forum descend on you I can tell you that thousands of ppl have taken up this hobby by buying a Triton workcentre. I did and I found it an excellent introduction.
Sure, I've since bought a minimax combination machine and it's like comparing a pedal car to a modern motor vehicle - but they will both get you there. And you can see that people here make positively wonderful things with triton workcentres.
And sure, when I look at the cheap table saws available I think I'd rather have one of them than the triton. The big advantages i found in starting out with a Triton are:
1. They have a video (admittedly rather ancient) that not only helps you set it up but amounts to a woodworking course in itself.
2. You can buy a project book that enables a complete novice to make quite good furniture by simply "following the dots" The first thing I made was a full chest of drawers and I'm still proud of it.
3. Because they are so popular they seem to have a reasonable resale value when you want something better.
4. Switching from "table saw mode" to "crosscut mode" isn't much of a hassle when you start out (although it does become one) and it does give you multiple functions.
5. They only become costly when you start to buy all the addons. I did and wouldn't recommend this.

The fact is that after a while you may start to lust after something more sophisticated or wish that for about the same money you had bought a table saw. But in my case that was only because my Triton experience was so satisfactory and such an easy introduction. On the other hand you might feel that a triton fulfils your ever need.

And if you do eventually buy a more sophisticated machine you can take the saw out of the workcentre and sell it. If you do buy the router table that should be good enough for ever - unless you get a spindle moulder but that's another story.

Cheers

[silentC]

I think you are going to get two distinct schools of thought emerging over this question.

Once school says: "start with hand tools, this way you learn how to make the joints the traditional way and you can then move to power tools to speed the process up. You come to understand the joints and see where power tools can help you. Hand tools are also cheaper and if you get good ones they are for life."

The other school says: "why mess about with hand tools when there are so many great power tools, jigs and so on out there that will give you a professional finish with a shorter learning curve?"

You have to decide which one you are in.

DaveInOZ replied to this thread under General Woodwork and said "get a Triton". If you want to get good results quickly, then that is good advice. I've got a Triton workstation and a Triton router table and a Makita SCMS and for most of the stuff I've built, I've hardly ever picked up a hand tool.

For my most recent cabinet project, I used the following:

1. Circular saw in the Triton
2. Router in the table and in plunge mode - straight cutter, beaded round-over bit, coving bit
3. SCMS
4. 1" chisel
5. Cordless drill - straight bits and counter sink bit
6. Orbital Sander
7. Couple of handmade jigs.

With that lot I built a cabinet from solid timber with shelf pin holes for adjustable shelving and 5 piece mortice and tenon doors. I've got heaps of other tools but they're all I used. With the Triton, you don't really need the SCMS.

Having said that, I'm starting to get interested in the hand tools now and I'm building up my collection and learning how to use them.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Originally posted by silentC
I think you are going to get two distinct schools of thought emerging over this question.


Ahh but there are more than two distinct schools of thought .....

I would agree with the two mentioned thus far ... hand vs power .... but then you have the "will do for now school" and the "elitism school”.

The “will do for now school” (WDFNS) which I am a member would rather have a large collection of the cheaper power tools, such as the GMC range so that there is the correct tool for each job, and gradually upgrade from there as skills progress, machinery dies or they have found what stream of woodworking interests them most. It has been said before that for the price and with a 2 year warranty GMC offer very good value for money. With a budget of $1200 it would be a well-equipped workshop if a majority of the products were from the GMC range. There would be a lathe, mitre saw, biscuit joiner, sander, router, drill, possibly the Triton as suggested, assorted hand tools ….. you get the picture, a good mix of tools to try out and produce some very good results.

The “elitism school” (ES) would rather put a majority of the $1200 into a top of the range tool …. nothing below the FESTOOL 150mm Rotex Sander @ $695.45 +10% GST will do to sand wood.
The ES have so much pride in themselves and their skill level that they wouldn’t ever recommend, even where justified for a newbie, a cheaper range of tool. The ES would never admit to touching or let alone buying a cheaper tool as their elitism would be servery dinted. A true ES would simply say that the $1200 should go into shares until it has generated enough of a dividend to purchase the top of the line Jet table saw. The ES cannot see over their own ego to remember a time when they were starting out and had nothing and it was more about how well you could use your machinery rather than how much your machinery cost. It is very handy living near a newbie ES however, after almost finishing your master piece you can always head over and borrow the Rotex sander because you know that it will still be sitting in the box unused as the ES is still saving for the Jet tablesaw that will enable then to cut the piece of wood before sanding.

Although this board offers a great deal of advice with the many knowledgeable members it’s a shame that some members cannot answer the question being asked honestly …. they just seem to put on the ….. hey I have lots of money so only the best will do for me hat and I want everybody to know it. My advice is …. swallow your pride … head down to Bunnies and pick up as many entry/mid level tools that you can, you will most likely be able to assemble a good range of tools that will ensure that you are using the right tool for the job, eg a plane to remove excess waste and not the Rotex sander. Try them out … see what you like …. see what you use …. gradually upgrade as the need arrises and remember ….. when people are admiring your work they really couldn’t give a stuff is you used the Makita SCMS or a hand saw as long as it looks good.

Sorry to rant and rave on but I had to vent this … with Doorstop away who else will stir up the pot?

Stinky is now going off to have a lie down :D

[silentC]

Actually, you'll get your ES's and your WDFNS's in both the Hand tool and the Power tool argument, so on that basis, there are still two schools but each has it's own spectrum with ES at one end and WDFNS at the other.

GMC vs. Festo - Stanley vs. Lie Neilsen.

Plus every combination in between. Maybe someone could do a thesis on it... nah...

[Sir Stinkalot]

.... rather do a poll :D

[Sturdee]

I fully agree with the excellent advice given by Mr. Minimax, Silent C and Sir Stinkalot and all I would say is that if you go for a Triton setup look around for a good and cheap second hand setup. They are often advertised on this BB due to upgrades.

Peter

[aobed]

Hi everyone!

Thanks for the information - I've just returned home from work and there is quite a deal here for me to go on. I appreciate the insight everyone has provided.

I think I've learnt more from the information posted here then what I have learnt wondering about hardware stores - the practical advice is priceless.

At this point, I'll spend one more weekend researching and then hopefully make a few purchases (woohoo!) next weekend and get started.

I think the triton workbench option seems to be the best one for me to go for + a set of basic tools to get me started. However I'll have this weekend to investigate and think about it. Once again, thanks for the info :)

[Marc]

I agree with Stinkalot and would add that most of my first hand tools and powertools, were second hand from the "Trash and Tresure" or the Femington market.

[Daniel]

Congradulations Marc on becoming a senior member.

Now down to the business, did you really read what stinky wrote.

When I saw that it reminded me of the waffle that an old lecturer at university pumped out every day.

Mind you in time he was converted (not that way now) and woodworking became a hobby, he apparently is living in Geelong now.

Stinky your disguise has been revealed at last.:D


Daniel

[DarrylF]

Stinky's on a crusade!! :) :)

When buying say a plane you can go for the $400 Lie-Nelson, the $100 Stanley, or the $25 Supercraft. The Lie-Nelson would be nice one day if you can use it well enough to justify it and can afford it. Using the Supercraft is a frustrating, annoying experience that would put anyone off. With a little work the Stanley will tune up nicely and work very well for many years.

Buying the Supercraft would be a waste, and likely to put any new woodworker off. Anyone trying to get started using it is either going to give up or shelve it and buy something better. No new woodworker is going to be able to get the value out of a Lie-Nelson either. The smart choice, to me anyway, is to go for the Stanley first up.

Same applies across the board IMHO. Cheap tools are cheap for a reason. They're often frustratng to try to use, especially if you don't know what you're doing in tuning them up, and they don't last. If poor quality tools mean you're not able to cut a straight line, cut square and finish properly, how long are you going to last in the hobby?

Nothing wrong with buying second hand, or buying GMC for that matter, if that's what the budget allows, but buying too cheap is just as silly as a newbie with a Rotex :)

[Sir Stinkalot]

Just to clear a few things up ....

By cheap tools I mean GMC, Ryobi and the like .... not the super cheap $19 for any power tool jobbie from Kmart or the Warehouse. There are some really bad cheap power tools that I would have thought that general common sense would have avoided them.

I do agree that the high end tools do make woodworking more enjoyable but if you are on a budget and aware of this fact, the lower end tools can still be enjoyed even with the compromise they may bring.

DarrylF and I are on the same page ... dont go too cheap but dont go overboard .... oh and from Stinkys experience avoid the pack of three pilers at Bunnies for around $10 ...

[Marc]

Senior . . . mm sounds old . . . Anyway tools

Very cheap hand tools are a disaster, agreed. Just try to buy hand tools or garden tools in Franklins or Woolwords.
Solution is either to buy good new ones if you have the money or go to the second hand markets and find good and some times very good tools for a few dollars. Takes time and some knowledge, but common sense helps. English German or American hand tools are usually very good. Buying hand tools second hand is a rewarding experience. I personally never stopped buying hand tools particularly old and good ones.

Power tools. There are some cheap and bad ones around? Yes.
Also some cheap and not so bad ones? Yes, GMC is one of them.
One can also buy power tools second hand, and contrary to popular belief, most of the time you can buy a good tool that will last a long time particularly to an amateur . . . IF:

You stick to the best brand possible. Never buy Black and Decker Rioby handyman series or any Chinese power tools second hand. In fact, do not buy ever any handyman quality second hand, nor small pwer tools.
Buy only the best brands the larger models and never pay more than half the price new, 1/3 is even better. Bosh and Rioby blue are OK, Makita, Hitachi, Festo, Elu, AEG, and any of the German.

Look at the tool, the state of its exterior tells you the life it had. If it is covered with mortar stains, paint or giprock dust, you can skip that one. If it looks looked after and it is a recent model, well you are on a winner. Plugging it in and revving it up will give you some further indication. Noisy bearings are a give away, smell the air that blows out of the motor, does it smell like burned plastic? Forget it.

In the end it is always a gamble but one that can pay good dividends. What I do after purchasing a second hand power tool is go to a trusty power tool repairer I know, that works inside one of the Parra Power Tools shops, and give it to him to clean and service, and if necessary change bearings and brushes. for some further $30 or thereabouts, you have a tool that will last a long time. I have a large number of power tools purchased that way and they are all still in good working order.

One last tip. If you ever burn a power tool working at home and providing you are not a professional, check your home insurance. Chances are that it is covered under the terms of your content insurance. I burned an electric planer and had it replaced legitimately.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Marc,
Where would you suggest looking for second hand power tools? Im am not in the market but I sometimes look at Crime Convertors and find really poor quality tools often up to 90% of new price and sometimes .... especially with the cheapes over the original RRP.

[IanA]

Aobed, you don't mention how much space you have in your workshop, or even if you have a workbench.

A simple workbench need not cost much but build that cost into your budget before you go shopping.
Working on the floor or on horses can be done, but it takes away from the fun and makes it difficult to achieve good results.

For a long time I had limited space, (if I'd swung a cat I would have knocked his head off.) and tended to set up a pair of horses out on the lawn next to the workshop, to break down the larger materials (like MDF sheets).

The other comments above are good, but take them in the context of how you think your hobby may develop.

Don't forget to have a simple wish list of smaller ticket items. Christmas and birthdays tend to be good for filling the gaps.

Enjoy your hobby, that's what it's for!!!

[Zed]

have I mentioned that I love this forum ???

Anyway, Mr Stink, there is a third school of thought that should be considered ; Ie : "I'll buy quality for high usage and compensate elsewhere" (IBQ4HU&CE).

As the name suggests Afficianados of IBQ4HU&CE (like myself) discover very early what they really need and buy a good one and compromise on others. In my case being a renovator it was a V.Good quality batt drill (Makita 7.2v - 12 yrs old and still kicking on the original batteries), 8" bench grinder, hammer & handsaw.

For example With a budget of $1200 you could get a bitchen batt drill, bench grinder, hammer and handsaw for approx $400 and get the GMC throwaways and other handtools as required when required and some timber to learn on whilst building your workbench!

Thats my opinion anyway.

Mind you I tend to lean towards the ES on occasion - my power tools all come in a nice dark blue colour.:D

[Eastie]

http://www.ubeaut.biz/tearjerk.gif Sniffle, sniffle, ah gee stinky I just read that message and you’ve put a tear in me eye. I was lost – I mean I didn’t seem to fit in at all. But thanks to Zed – another IBQ4HU&CE – I have found myself and can now see the light.
BTW Stinky, you can borrow my rotex any time, so log as you apologise to it – nicely too as it doesn’t like sarcasm! And you have to be sure to clean it before giving it back, I don’t want it to look all dusty!

[WNS]

Nice thread people but why is it in the woodturning forum?:confused:

[Zed]

NFI mate, Must admit I have recently started using the "Find todays active thread button" these days so as per my normal routine I have no idea what planet/forum i'm on. I still browse my favourites though.

hey Stink, why dontcha start a poll using your indomitable wit that begs the question : "What school do you belong to ?" I'd start it myself but I dont want to get in trouble for using the wrong forum...:D

[Sturdee]

Originally posted by WNS
Nice thread people but why is it in the woodturning forum?:confused:

Maybe because the original poster, being a nice sounding newbie, did not know which forum to use and so far nobody thought it necessary to point out the mistake.

Peter.

[Marc]

Stinkalot:
To find good used tools or power tools is a matter of being pacient and informed.
l live in Sydney so that is of no use to you, but there are 3 or 4 second hand tool markets on weekends and then there is the pawn brokers and the trading post, not to mention the second hand tool shops.

Cash convertors is a place to shop with caution since they tend to price their staff on the high side. Cash convertors in Fairfield has a Rioby drill press industrial line 16 speed floor stand for $399
A few phone calls quoting the model number revealed that when Rioby suggested retail price is $499, the retailer sells the same product for $380/

Having said that, I baught half of my workshop in places like Cash converters and I found some very good deals there. It all comes down to how much they paid for it. The guys that do the purchasing are not rocket scientist and if they pay too much for an item, they will try to sell it high, and unfortunaltey they usualy find someone that buys at just about any price.

[Jigsaw]

Aobed,
great to see some younger people getting involved. Using a bit of lateral thinking here, I would also suggest you join a woodworking club (if you haven't already).
The CVWC should be able to provide you with the names of clubs in your area.
You will find some clubs specialise in certain aspects of woodworking such as woodturning and some cover a wide range within the one club (cabinetmaking, scroll saw, carving etc). I have joined the later type wich is great. You can start off in one field of interest and dabble in the other areas. This forum is a fantastic tool but the ability to talk to people face to face, exchange ideas and see first hand (touchy feely experience) what others are doing is worth its weight in gold.
Joining a club is the best thing you will ever do.

[aobed]

Hi there,

Just thought I'd let everyone know what I ended up purchasing and how I've progressed.

Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice :).

I ended up purchasing a 10" compound slide drop saw, 1/2" router, belt sander, finishing sander, a heap of clamps and built myself a workbench to work off / store everything in.

Virtually all of the tools were "no name" brands, however they certainly to the job (atleast for my standard of work anyway!)

I went for the cheap approach for the majority of my tools and will progressively upgrade as my skills and needs increase.

I think this was highlighted in the clamps I purchased. I managed to pick up a heap of g-clamps / f-clamps from a "$2 store" for between $3 - $5. While not great, these were of equalivant quality of the cheap ones sold in bunnings for considerably more ($15-$20). For me, I couldn't justify purchasing record clamps until I can produce work that justifies the cost. (Or I win the lotto!)

Last weekend I built a bookshelf for my sister - which (aside from the workbench) was my first project since high school. I was quite happy with the performance of all the tools and look forward to my next project - a day bed!

My next major purchase will be a table saw so this will allow me to rip timber rather than having to get it all at the right width.

I also need to install a tow bar on my car and purchase a trailer. It's quite difficult to transport timber in a sedan :)

Hope everyone had a great Christmasn / New Years!

[Sturdee]

[QUOTE]
....... and look forward to my next project - a day bed!

[QUOTE]


If you are looking for a plan and instructions there is a day bed featured in the latest Triton Times which can be downloaded from
http://www.triton.net.au/ttimes_2.html

Regards,


Peter