Help wanted: first timer re-springing armchair

[zenwood]

I am attacking an armchair with a collapsed seat, a broken arm, and a collapsed back. The pics show the general state of the innards that I revealed today. Yet to investigate the back. But I discovered that the springs in the seat had detached at the top, and the seat itself seems to be falling apart. A piece of thin ply was supporting the arm pad, and of course someone sitting on the arm has broken the ply.

Any advice would be appreciated here. My questions are along the following lines:

1. Is this chair worth repairing?
2. Is it doable by a person with zero experience with this kind of work?
3. Will I be able to reuse all the old parts (springs, webbing, padding, fabrics, etc. or will I need to replace some or all of these)?
4. The helical seat springs were tied to the underneath part of the seat and to the lower webbing at the base of the chair. How is this done?
5. I've removed a few hundred staples today and about a hundred hemispherical drawing pins with an old chisel. Is there a special tool to make this easier?

Many thanks to anyone who can help a rather daunted zenwood.:o


These pics show attacking the seat from underneath...

[zenwood]

...and these pics show the broken arm. The frame itself seems quite stout, but the thin piece of plywood supporting the padding is inviting a disaster if anyone sits on the quite wide arm of this chair. Any suggestions for beefing it up?

[neilb]

Gday Zenwood
You really have your hands full with this project for a beginner ! I must warn you however, this isnt going to be a quick nor easy fixit project:((
Firstly, you must decide if the amount of time and effort you will be putting into the restoration is justified . There are many who would say yes for maybe sentimental reasons ect.

You really need a pneumatic staple gun and an air blower to tackle anything like this.

You must strip it all down to the framework to do it properly. Take note of how the stuffing is layered and stitched. If you want to you can cut it all out in a big block and refer to it when you are ready to start upholstering it again. All woodwork must be done first and any painting or polishing completed . About the only re-usable items would be the Coil Springs and sometimes the fibre stuffing. Depending on the age of the chair the stuffing could be wadding (which is finely shredded rags) or even horsehair. Check to see if the springs are not bend over or broken. If they are , - in the bin. The rest you can throw out.

Look up your Yellow Pages phone book under Upholstering supplies and you should find a local trade supplier. Sometimes you will have to buy in whole lots because they wont sell cut lengths of some stock. Work out if it is cheaper buying only what you need from an upholsterer or bulk from a trade supply warehouse.

With removing staples / tacks ect, You can get what is known as a staple remover tool. Most upholsterers just use what is called a stuffing regulator but when you use it, NEVER put your spare hand in front of it . You can also make one up by grinding an old 6" screwdriver to a not too sharp point. Need I say what can and DOES happen ? You will also need a webbing stretcher to make the webbing taut. Also a buttoning needle with a blade on one end and an eye in the other for stitching your rolled edges on the stuffing.

Have a chat to the trade supply place and usually they will give you advice on how and what to do and use.

You can also re-use the stuffing if you are prepared to "tease" it, by pulling it all apart and seperating it . It should end up about 6 times the size of what you started out with. And its dusty stuff. :((

Dont bother trying to use the old webbing , Its not worth it and the chair is only as strong as the webbing that holds everything up. A roll of 50mm Jute webbing is only a few dollars. If the chair has buttons, take some fabric to an upholsterer and he should be able to make them up . If not, send me some fabric and I can post them to you.

That should be enough info to get you started . Good luck and if you need to ask anything , fire away . :2tsup:
Neil.

[neilb]

Also , in the last pic where you've got your finger under the fabric, That is what is called Piping. You will need either jute or plastic piping which fabic is cut into 40mm or so strips and sewn around the piping cord. You may have to borrow beg or steal SHMBO sewing machine as well . :C

With closer examination of the other pics, it does look quite salvageable and the type of chair you have is known as a "Genoan " chair. they were usually made in a 3 piece suite up untill about 1960. If you can get the rest of the suite, you may have a nice investment in furniture once it is restored properly. Have a look in the Antique dealers shops. Mind you , they were never known as being comfortable as compared to todays lot but I will bet that long after the last Amart lounge has collapsed, the old Genoans will be still standing proudly.
Neil.

[zenwood]

Thanks for the informative reply, Neil. This chair is part of a suite of 2 armchairs and a 3-seater settee. We bought the suite about 15 years ago, apparently after it had been 'restored'. Maybe the restoration only consisted in recovering the tapestry fabric, given the state of the seat padding and springs after a relatively brief time. (See also attached pic showing a row of tacks along the outside of the seat frame which presumably did something in a former life.) Agree with your comments on comfort, and certainly looking at the frame of this chair, it is quite solidly built.

I ended up re-grinding my old chisel with a hollow 'v' profile, and reducing the sharpness: it now makes a better staple puller.


The chair doesn't have any buttons. But I was hoping to re-use the piping, since I don't have any spare tapestry fabric. Would that be possible?

The coil seat springs look to be in fine condition. I hope to get at the back springs today. I think I can reuse the coil springs at least.

I'm surprised you said the stuffing could be re-used. I guess the stuffing is horsehair -- since it is not shredded rags. The hair seems to have originally been held in a coarsely woven hessian sack, to which the springs were tied with string. This arrangement suprised me because it seems obvious that the springs would quickly dig-in to the stuffing and ruin it. I would have thought you'd need another layer of some tough material between the stuffing and the springs to act as a barrier.

Where do you get new webbing from?

I've seen the webbing stretching tools that look like pin-combs on one end, and a layer of rubber on the other end. I was thinking of making one myself, but I'm not sure how they are used. Any hint would be welcome.

Once again...thanks for the info, and the encouragement.:)

[neilb]

By the look of the pics your chairs stuffing is probably coconut fibre. This was one of the most common stuffings and you can still buy it by the Bale. With the piping, are you recovering the lounge in a new fabric or is the old one in good condition ?

If you are using the old fabric, yes you can re-use the old piping. You just have to make sure that when you re-apply it that you have enough to reach the other end as you staple it , stretch it. This will also make a straighter line. If youre a bit wonky with straight lines, use a 1mtr steel ruler or straight edge and put the piping up against it as you are stapling it on.

Now with the springs, there should be a heavy duty hessian cover over the top of the springs which is stapled on to the front and rear seat rails as well as the inner seat arm rails. Then each spring is tied in 3 places on the top ring of the coil to this hessian cover and dont cut the string when you have finished the first spring. Go straight to the next spring behind it and do the same. When you have tied a line of springs to the spring cover you then have to fasten the cord from the last and first springs to the front and rear seat rails respectively. Make sure that you dont over pull them one way or the other. when you have fastened them to the rails they must be standing up straight and not able to be lean over in any direction as this will in time bend them and will cause them to fall over or break with any weight put on the seat. When you have done the spring tying from front to back , do the same side to side but this time just tie them in the centre of the top of each coil. The only movement there should be now is straight up and down with compression.

You can get Jute webbing from Bunnings for about $10 a roll. With making a webbing stretcher, get a block of wood say 200mm x 60mm and drive 4 or 5 1 inch nails into the end grain of each end. Leave them sticking out about 12mm and then cut the heads off with pliers. You may have to sharpen then on the grinder if they wont poke through the webbing easily.

SHMBO is calling for dinner. This will keep you busy for a while.
Neil.

[woodcutta]

Zenwood,

Have seen this name come up a few times on this forum. Haven't purchased anything from them yet - but they look to have everything needed.

http://www.diyupholsterysupplies.com.au/

woodcutta

[echnidna]

Zenwood, have a look around youtune theres quite a few upholstery videos

You couls start here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+upholster+a+dining+chair&search=Search)

[zenwood]

Thanks for the link woodcutta. Might check them out for specialist stuff.

I'm getting thoroughly sick of removing staples, and I'm not yet half way through. So far I have revealed the underside of the seat, the back, and one arm. The top of the arm will need some significant reinforcing I think. The hessian will need replacing. The seat looks likes it's made of a layer of foam, wadding and coconut fibre. The fibre had formed lumps between the springs. Can these be teased apart, or should I try to get hold of new fibre as well?

Yes the plan is to re-use the old coverings, just fix up the padding and the springs. The coverings are made from tapestry fabric and tan vinyl.

Here are some pics of today's de-stapling effort. First the underneath part of the seat padding shows the sad state of the hessian, and the coconut formed into lumps.

[zenwood]

The chair back shows how the webbing has come adrift, and the springs lying askew. It looks to me like a shoddy repair has been done with new webbing tacked directly to the inside faces of the side frames, rather than the front faces. The webbing has also been woven into the rear coils of the springs. Is this standard practice?

[zenwood]

Finally the sad state of the arm is shown under the foam: the ply has been bent over the curve of the arm and has been destoryed by people sitting on the arm of the chair. How can I fix this, and at the same time make it strong enough to support someone sitting on the arm of the chair?

[zenwood]

(http://www.woodworkforums.com/member.php?u=1292)Echnidna: good idea using youtube. I hadn't thought of that, and it's always good to see someone who knows what they're doing.

[neilb]

With the damaged arm ply you have a couple of options.
1. put a thicker ply on it.
2. instead of using plywood, staple 50mm ELASTIC webbing across the width of the arm spaced 50mm apart. Stretch it fairly tight but not all the way so that if they do happen to sit on the arm, there is flexibility available. Put some heavy hessian over the webbing , staple it over the side of the arm, not the top and then put the foam back down. Clarke Rubber sell Elastic webbing but make sure you get Elastic SEATING webbing. There are different grades for seating and backs and you can buy only what you need from them. Probably around $5 a metre.
3. Kick the backside of who ever dares to sit on it. :~

Note how the old foam has been stapled through the sides of the arm foam and not through the top. There is a reason for this. If you staple it straight down you will end up with lumpy bumpy foam which shows through the finished job. By stapling the sides, you will notice that the top edge line of the foam is a lot straighter and with the right tension on your fabric it is easy to get a nice straight smooth finish along the top of the arms.

That Jute seat webbing is not meant to be woven in and out or around the springs. The webbing has to be woven in and out of each webb, front to back and also side to side. A general rule of thumb, whatever the width of webbing, that is the space between the next webb. This strengthens the webbing. Dont staple the webbing to any timber endgrain . If neccessary, take it around to the side rails and make sure to fold the webbing back over itself and staple again. If you dont, it will fray out in no time.

Sometimes a small strip of webbing is put between the spring coils when they are attached to a hard surface to stop them from squeeking and clicking.

In the meantime, enjoy getting those tacks and staples out and dont leave any on the shed floor. They go through shoes with the greatest of ease. :o
Neil.

[zenwood]

Thanks Neil. Good observation on the foam stapling. Any problem using the old foam? Can it be glued to the wood, instead of using staples? I have a staple gun but it's one of the hand operated ones and basically takes two hands and alot of force to use. I can see me getting RSI using it here.

Another question: the sides of the chair has padding which is bulging into the void in the arm (see pic). Is it worth trying to reinforce the back of this padding with wooden slats, extra webbing etc.?

[neilb]

With regards to the bulging of the filling into the arm cavity, the usual remedy is to take off the stuffing and hessian and install either a thin plywood panel to the top and bottom rails. Or put in vertical jute webbs spaced 50mm apart and also 2 horizontals front to back evenly spaced. Tight tension on all webbs is needed. Then put back the stuffing and hessian. If you used plywood, dont bother with putting back the hessian.

Hey, I did warn you about the absolute joys of staple removing , and on the subject of stapling, do yourself a favour and get yourself a small compressor and air stapler. You wont regret it. One of the cheap ones is fine just for occasional use. Make sure it can handle a minimum of 10mm depth staples.

Yes you can re-use the old foam and glue it back on, however I would take a good look at it first. Has it lost any of its density or firmness ? Does it feel like theres enough "bounce" in the foam when you lay your arm on it ? If in doubt, replace it with 25mm GREY foam and you wont look back. I have highlighted grey because different colours of foam indicate the different grades and densities.

You can cut it to size easily if you borrow SHMBO electric carving knife from her kitchen (or just dont tell her) and it will slice through foam like melted butter. Mark it out squarely with a texta and allow an extra say 10mm on all sides so that when you tack or glue it back on you arent stretching it into place which will lose some of the foams thickness.

With reference to the earlier pics, yes the repair job was done by an in-experienced person. The fact that Drawing pins and Vinyl was put over the tapestry is a dead giveaway. The webbings are atrocious and obviously not done properly.

However, you will have got the worst part of the project over with when you have removed the necessary staples and junk and life does get better from here on. Believe me , I did that work day in and day out when I was an apprentice and I know what you are going through, but I did warn you. :rolleyes:
Neil.

[zenwood]

Took a day off from de-stapling yesterday, so no progress pics. Thanks for the hint about the foam. And I would never have thought about using an electric carving knife to cut it, until I saw it on one of the youtube videos on upholstering and you mentioned it above. How about a bandsaw? I used a bandsaw once before to cut some foam for the air seals on my cyclone. Is this an acceptable method?

It does seem obvious that the webbings were not done properly. What's the issue with putting drawing pins and vinyl over tapestry?

I guess I've been hedging a bit so far with this project: I don't want to remove ALL the upholtery because I wanted to reuse the fabrics and vinyls. I can see that it might be very difficult to reinstall these when you don't have excess material to work with, and trip down after stapling. So I've been trying to leave as much in place as I can in order to repair the springs and webbing. So my question would be: is this feasible, or should I go the whole hog as you advised above and strip it all down to the bare frame? Or, would it be at all possible to try to find new matching tapestry and vinyl?

I can see now why we've been quoted a minimum of $800 to re-spring these chairs.

[zenwood]

Some more destapling today, revealing the layering of fabric, foam, new wadding, old wadding, coconut fibre, and worn-out hessian.

The final pic shows a strange strap of webbing across the back of the arm frame. Does this serve any purpose?

I think I'm close to having to buy some stuff. New hessian and webbing at least. And maybe an air stapler. Anyone know where to buy these in Adelaide? Should I re-use the wadding, foam and coconut fibre, or are there modern replacements for these?

[echnidna]

supercheap autos has cheap air staplers, mine has done a lot of upholstery

[neilb]

From reading between your lines, I get the impression that this project is starting to lose its enthusiam because of the labour intensity involved. Dont worry, I am about to make life easier further on if you choose to go that way.

You can re-use the stuffings, tease and puff it all up first. Then put it back the way you found it. That webb across the lower back and the arm is probably continued right across the back, they probably just tacked it to the outer frame for convenience. Sometimes you just cant get a tack hammer in tight nooks and crannies. Leave it alone if its not hurting anything.

Ok, now thats the original old school way of doing it. That way I know it is a lot of work but it will be still classed as original and it will maintain its value. Now for some sneaky shortcuts. Now be aware that although some upholsterers use this way it will be no longer classed as an original and will lose considerable value as far as antiques go.

Forget about all the springs.
Forget all about the stuffings.
Forget all the padding to be stitched.
You like the sound of this dont you !!!!!!! :U

Apply the webbs as I have mentioned previously but this time staple them on the top seat rail instead of at the base of the chair.
Get yourself a hunk of say 2'' - 3'' GREY foam (the thickness depends on the finished height you want the seat. ) Staple a layer of hessian over the webbings and then once you have cut the foam to the correct size, glue the foam onto the hessian.

To get the correct foam size , measure between the side seating rails and the same front to back allow for overhang. If you have done it right, the foam should go at least all the way from under the lower arm rails on both sides and the same front to rear. You will have to look at the original finished height because this will determine the height of the new foam block. It usually is 2 - 3'' max.

As per you question about using a bandsaw for cutting foam, Yes you can but use as fine a tooth blade as possible. If you use too vicious a blade it can chew the foam up and drag it down the clearance hole around where the blade comes out of the bench. In any case, fill that hole up before you start cutting any foam. The bandsaw is good for cutting foams thicker than 1''. Anything thinner, just use a pair of scissors or SHMBO trusty electric knife. Dont tell her though, she may get upset. If you wanted a bandsaw dedicated to just cut foam, one of the small el cheapo ones at Bunnings for about $80 is fine. When you are cutting foam there is nowhere near the workload on the machine like their is cutting wood. I use one myself and its been going for the past 20 odd years.

Now if you want a nice curved finish on your seat, if the seat is say 50mm x 50mm , cut a piece of 1 '' foam 25mm x 25mm and glue that on the hessian before the top layer of foam. Cut the top edges off the smaller block to get rid of the square look which may show through to the top foam. Now if you have to put a seat cushion on the chair, dont go for the curved seat look because you will have a gap where the front of the seat cushion sits on the chair. Just glue the hunk of foam straight on and then start putting the cover on.
Neil. :2tsup:

[neilb]

Sorry, that seat foam measurement just above should have read 50cm x 50cm. :doh:
Neil.

[zenwood]

Neil: now you're starting to talk my language! :)

Certainly I don't think resale value is an issue here.

Does the diagram represent what you were describing?

A youtube video I saw mentioned that a layer of cotton is required between the fabric and the foam, otherwise the foam is abraded. Is that right?

How big should the overhang be? Should I use the same method for the back as the seat, and ditch the springs etc.

Echnidna: thanks for the tip on supercheap auto staplers. Do they have a long neck for reaching into tight corners?

[neilb]

The pic of the foam seating is spot on. Just make sure you have the right height foam and if it is too hard to go under the seat rails, taper it so that it can do so , so that youre not "crushing " the foam to get it under the rails. Taper the edges from top to bottom of the first foam so that the edges dont show up as square through the top foam. Dont forget that after the foam goes under, you still have to get the top fabric cover under as well.

As for an earlier question, about the vinyl being put over the tapestry ect. That would have been done by a backyarder who knew nothing as to what they were doing. Dont put the vinyl back on, its not meant to be there at all.

An inch all around is a good foam overhang. It just makes it easier to fasten it down on to the rails if you dont have to stretch and pull it.

With the issue of the cotton layer over the foam, dont worry about that , you only need to do that if youre using a velvet fabric. It is to protect the underside of the velvet pile from wearing abrasively on the foam. Most manufacturers dont even bother these days anyway. Its not a real issue with other types of faric.
Neil.

[neilb]

Same method applies to the back. Just use a lighter grade foam. Ask your supplier to show you the different grades . White is mostly used for back cushioning ect.
Neil. :2tsup:

[zenwood]

Dont put the vinyl back on, its not meant to be there at all.

Neil.

You want me to cover the whole chair in tapestry? Problem is I don't have enough of it, and the vinyl is integrated into the design of the other chairs in the suite. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Another question is regarding the webbing base for the seat foam. The side frames and the front-back frames are at different heights. Can this be worked around, or should I add extra frame members to make a nice frame in a single plane?

[neilb]

With the vinyl question - I thought there was vinyl put over the tapestry previously. If there is an underlying reason , like maybe the tapestry is torn / stained or whatever, then put the vinyl back on to match the rest of the suite.

With the different heights of the rails, you may have to put in another pair of rails front to back to match the plane of the front and rear rails. Allow yourself room to be able to get under the bottom arm rails with the foam and fabric. You can even arttach these 2 rails to the outer sides of the base frame if you want to , its easier to do that . Make sure you put in 45 degree corner blocks in the corners to give all your rails with webbing attached extra holding strength. Its also a good idea to put blocks say 50mm x 50mm in all frame corners to strengthen the chair. Nail and Glue them all.

Hope all this is making sense. :doh:
Neil.

[zenwood]

Pics 1 & 2 show the rest of the suite, and how the tapestry and vinyl are part of the design.

Pics 3 & 4 show how the side rails, and the front and back rails for the seat frame are at different heights. Will have to figure out some way to make a frame all in the same plane for the foam.


I think I've reached the limit of unstapling this thing. If I go much further I'm not confident I'll ever put it together again. So I decided to make a start on repairing and beefing up the arms. I replaced the plywood, nailing it down onto the curved arm, and will strengthen it by gluing bracing to it underneath (pics 5,6,7).

In the process of hammering the nails, a top arm frame split where it is nailed to an upright (pic 8). A little glue shoved in with a matchstick repaired this (pic 9). For good measure, I added some extra bracing by gluing a piece to the upright to support the arm joint from underneath (pic 10).

[neilb]

With the split arm rail, put in either a good sized corner block say 75mm x 75mm x width of rail under the arm rail or a vertical rail say around 50mm thick screwed to the back post from under the arm to the chair base. This will strengthen it very well. Even though you may have done a good repair to the split, that area will be under a lot of stress when someone sits on the arm. That is all that supports the whole of the rear arm section.
Neil.

[neilb]

With putting in the extra rails for the seat webbing, you can put in a rail across the very back of the chair between the 2 vertical posts at the required height of the webbing. The same for the side rails. :2tsup: Corner blocks as well to stop the webbing from eventually pulling them forward or even out completly.

[jane123]

Hi Zenwood
Like you, I also am an amateur upholsterer. I am now onto my third or fourth project and have already stripped down, re-webbed, re-sprung and the rest of it, an antique three piece lounge and am in the throes of doing another. You ask is it worth it? If you go into it thoroughly you will find (as you already are finding with the removal of staples and tacks) that it is hard work. However, upholstering is a process and each stage of the process has a set and proper method which is not at all difficult to learn. I thoroughly researched the subject to begin with and have the names of a number of books that have immeasureably helped me and which are a constant reference source. If you would like the titles of these books I am happy to send them to you. There is also a website http://www.upholster.com/ that I have found to be extremely helpful. I have also sourced a good number of suppliers, don't forget garden suppliers re coconut fibre, where you might find it cheaper. I get a great sense of achievement from taking an old beat up piece of (quality) furniture and tending it until it is restored to its former glory imprinted with my own preferences and skill. I hope this is of some help and that perhaps I may have encouraged you to take this project on.