Which Five Combination Machine?

[gazallo2003]

Hello,

I'm looking for a combination machine and I'm considering these ones:

Hammer C3 31
Minimax CU300 Smart
Minimax LAB300
Rojek KPS300A

I'm a hobbyist and I will do small to medium projects. My budget is around 9000 $ USA.

I read a lot of stuff in woodworking forums and reviews but still I have some trouble to decide which one offers better price / quality.

Is there someone who owns any of these machines? Wich one performs better wood job?
What about Felder? Are their high-end machines worth $16000 ?

Any comments will be apreciated.

Thanks a lot.
JCarlos, from Spain

[Zed]

The current issue of Australia Wood Review has a article about the Felder Combo. it retails here in Australia for $24,000.00 I dont know what that comes out to in Euro's no doubt being a european machine it would be cheaper.

Thier high end machines are definately worth the effort if you can afford it.

I understand the Italians make some good machinary too.

http://www.woodreview.com.au/

[silentC]

I'm incredibly envious that a hobbyist has that kind of money to spend on machinery but I think this argument has been made before:

With US$9000, you could buy yourself seperate machines to perform each of those functions and have money left to buy a bandsaw, drill press, wood lathe, you name it.

Add to that the fact that if it breaks, your whole workshop is offline until you get it fixed. Also there's the time it will take to setup when swapping between functions.

Maybe you don't have the room for all those machines. With the change from the $9000, you could buy a good sized garden shed to put it all in and still have money left over for beer.

That's why I wouldn't buy one. Even if I had US$9000. Which I don't. :(

[joez]

I suggest you checkout yahoo groups, there are groups for Minimax and Felder/Hammer. There might be groups for the other machines you mentioned there.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiniMax-USA/


I personally like the Minimax CU300 Smart, but if price were no object, the felder sounds pretty amazing.


SilentC you make some pretty valid comments about going for seperate machines, but I am having problems finding seperate machines that measure up to the Minimax, what would you recommend?

Buying seperate machines would also allow me to stagger my purchases. I am not too fussed about change over times becuase I figure it will probably take longer for me to wheel seperate machines around when swapping between them all in my workshop.


The minimax combo I am looking at has :

300mm Table Saw with scriber (4HP)
Sliding Table with a 2450mm rip capacity
4 Speed Shaper which also works with the sliding table (4HP).
300mm thicknesser(4HP)
300mm Jointer
Morticing Table.


TIA

Joe

[silentC]

Joe,

I'm the last person to give advice on what to buy as I tend to shop at the lower end of the scale because for me this is a hobby and I can't justify nor see the need to buy high-end equipment.

For example, I've just bought a 13 1/2" thicknesser which cost me $649. It's only got a two blade cutter head and the motor is 2.2HP, not 4. For my purposes it will do me fine. My jointer is 6" and cost me $429.

For the sake of argument, you could buy a 15" thicknesser with a 3HP motor and 3 cutter head for twice what I paid for mine. If I'd done that, I wouldn't have the jointer.

The point is you could easily spend all that dough and more buying high-end machines if you wanted to match the specs of the Minimax:

Thicknesser - $1200
Jointer - $1200
Table Saw - $3500
Spindle Moulder - $2000

Then the argument simply becomes whether you want one machine that does it all but has the associated compromises, or whether you want the flexibility of a machine for each purpose.

I've never worked with a combo machine but I have worked with a Jointer/Thicknesser. When you are using them all day, it becomes tedious to have to change modes all the time. For hobby use, that's probably less of an issue and perhaps it's more important to you to save space.

Perhaps someone who actually has one could comment.

[Mr. Minimax]

I've got a minimax lab300n.
It's no hassle at all changing functions - in fact it's trivial apart from the spindle moulder which takes a little while due to the fact that I am wary of the machine (not through experience but because ppl keep saying how dangerous they are) and thus I am super careful to check that everything is just right. Probably an advantage tho - if it was permanently set up I might be less likely to do my "Cockpit Drill" each time.
Changing to jointer or thicknesser takes only seconds -
I just don't understand what ppl are talking about when they say this is a disadvantage.

[Caliban]

Guys
Who cares?
The important thing is that you all learn how to spell SEPARATE
THAT'S SEP--- A-(THAT'S RIGHT "A")---RATE
EASY.
If the Spanish guy has the money let him spend it on one (not "won") machine.
cheers
Jim.

[DaveInOz]

One disadvantage of a combo machine, that can be avoided by careful planning, is that when you change functions you lose your setting for the previous function.
That means if you butcher a piece of wood you have jointed, thcknessed and ripped, and need to create a new one you would have more trouble getting exactly the same result a second time. On individual machines you can leave them set up for re-use.

Not a problem if you never make a mistake .... I always make at least one major mistake :rolleyes:

I have a cheapo combo and changing functions is the least of its problems

[silentC]

hovo, nobody likes a smartarse :p

[Caliban]

Darren
Of course they do. Otherwise why the smiley you included?
merry Christmas and cheers
Jim

[Darwin]

Hi,

If you can get hold of a copy of the February 2003 Fine Woodworking, it had a review on the US versio0ns of the Felder CF 731, Hammer C-31, Knapp Kombi 410, Minimax CU300, Robland NX-31 and Rojek KPS 300A.

Overall the Knapp and Felder were better (but more expensive, maybe over your budget, and the winner for around $9000 USD winner seemed to be the MiniMax with the Rojek a close second.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Darren
Australia

[ndru]

I've seen the Minimax CU300 Smart and Robland 310 changeovers and they were quick with the only real effort in lifting fences back on the machine. Most modern combos have effortless changeovers.

As said by DaveInOz and Mr. Minimax, change over time on combinations is not usually an issue, but the loss of settings can be. The typical stock squaring procedure is to use the jointer/buzzer, use the planer/thicknesser and then rip saw to width. On a combination this will require you to set up the jointer/buzzer and fence, then set up the planer/thicknesser table height and then, depending on your stock width and combo design, possibly take the jointer/buzzer fence down to saw. Depending on the combination's design a jointer/buzzer procedure will usually required the the thicknesser table to be dropped.

From what I have heard, typical projects will rarely require frequent changes between the saw and the spindle moulder, so loss of settings between saw and moulder are likely to be a minor inconvenience. How many hobbyists are really brave and cashed-up enough enough to use a 3hp spindle moulder anyway?

As a hobbyist your decision to buy a combination machine is really going to come down to how much space you have in the workshop. Aside from the issue of space, separates are ideal. The two machines you should aim to keep separate are the jointer/buzzer and the thicknesser/planer because it can be painful to reset these reliably (less so on the Felder) but combining these two functions into one machine will probably also save you the most workshop space. Other combo considerations are whether you need the spindle moulder and the type of sliding table you want.

Combos hold their value but they are a significant long term investments for the hobbyist (Mr. Minimax - you must be a QC!) so do your due dilligence. Don't rely just on combo reviews in magazines - they are usually too brief. I agree with Jo Zerafa - hang out on the combo user groups on yahoo for a while and ask questions. Also, see these machines in use if possible. For their price (especially Felder) the vendors should have good customer reference sites for you to visit.

If I were to go down the new combo path my preference would be the Minimax CU300 Smart, which accepts a dado head and has an excellent sliding table and optional scoring blade.

[silentC]

I may be at risk of further revealing my ignorance but my remark concerning the setup times when switching modes on combo machines was based upon my experience with a thicknesser/jointer combo in which the thicknesser table had to be fully wound down before the jointer could be used. The jointer outfeed table also had to be flipped up out of the way in thicknesser mode and there was a dust chute/cutter guard that was in one position for thicknessing and a different position for jointing. A very cleverly designed machine by all means but winding the thicknesser table up and down took more than just a few seconds.

In fact my main objection was based on the cost of the things and my wonder that if I had that kind of money to spend, how many more machines I could have in addition to the 5 functions provided by one of these jobs.

As for space, I suppose I will have the same problem in my little shed but I'm going to put wheels on things so that I can move them around.

My original reply to this thread was at least 50% prompted by jealousy. ;)

[ndru]

The jointer outfeed table also had to be flipped up out of the way in thicknesser mode and there was a dust chute/cutter guard that was in one position for thicknessing and a different position for jointing. A very cleverly designed machine by all means but winding the thicknesser table up and down took more than just a few seconds.

Some of the higher end combos (eg Felder, Hammer) don't need the thicknessing table to drop all the way down and the jointer table just swings out of the way like a car bonnet, taking less than 10 seconds. Lower-end models take more time to change (swing 1/2 jointer tables, raise/drop the thicknesser table) and some can be pretty painful. For the hobbyist like me this would be an inconvenience but something that could be reduced through project planning. For the production shop changeover and reset times would be critical and would be hard pressed to compete against separates. Combos are really designed as backup machines or for the artisan working out of his house with limited space.

Something else to consider about combos - will it fit through you workshop door? Some of these beasts are a lot wider than your typical 900mm doorway. If you don't have a car door your brand new machine may be sitting out in the weather until you knock a hole in your wall!