Sound Desk for Church

[BozInOz]

The brief:
A secured desk to hold a 24 channel mixer, and 2 x 19" racks for amps, computers, eq etc, and two computers (projection and sound.)

Plans are falling into place. I've got part of it in google sketch up on another computer. Roughly make it in three components a central work bench to support mixer, with wooden lid and drawer, and bolted to two cardboards for the racks on either side.

I'm keen to see if anyone has attempted anything like this or has any tips from either a sound or wood perspective.

Cheers
Dan

[AV Elec]

I have done plenty before. What exactly would you like to know?

[nev25]

Me to
What would you like to know
I used to do FOH/ Monitors and own and operated a system

Also made a lot of road boxes and Speakers (mainly Ws)

BTW Ive got a touring System almost compete for sale if you are looking for gear

My old Page
http://www.geocities.com/nevsutt/Index.html

[BozInOz]

now that's some quick replies. i'll get my plans off the other comp and post them up for comments.

[BozInOz]

I've made most of the model in Google Sketch Up. Some of it's a bit rough but you get the idea. It's 640K and too big for the forum but can send it to anyone if interested.

The plan is to build it in three units, two to hold the racks and a table top and drawers to bolt together when in location.

Racks.
19" racks for amps, eq, comp etc.
Front doors should slide back into the unit. Inspired by Australian wood review 54.
Back panels made of secruity mesh to allow ventilation.
Pondering adding a slide out keyboard drawer at top.

Roof
Flip top roof. Not excited about this but easy and can't think of anything better.
Two sound desks, one left out unlocked and run mainly front Mic and PA gear and the more complicated stuff locked up in the main unit.
LCD, I need to work out a way to lock the LCD. My friend suggested a worm drive but I think it will get complicated with the cords behind, and I thought attaching it to a flip top. Not sure.

Boz

[noodle_snacks]

I can make a few points.

The racks are hard to get to, and it will be hard to see and adjust equipment when there isn't much light about.

The stuff on the left and right sides of the desk will be hard to reach in a hurry and without straining the back. Anything there would have to be seldom used.

How are cables getting from the desk to the racks and back? Will those wooden panels get in the way should you decide to get a bigger mixing desk in the future?

Here are my suggestions:

If it is no problem taking up a bit more room:

Ditch the racks from underneath, then whoever is mixing can slide back and forth on an office chair and reach everything at the desk easily. Place the racks to one side and higher up so they are at eye level and more easily adjusted. This way the racks will be next to each other, so placement won't be so critical as far as what goes in which rack, signal runs will be shorter and with a bit of height it will be much less of a chore to plug things in etc. Additionally 2 seperate boxes like this will make things more portable (or sellable), should the church ever want to take their gear anywhere.

If room is a big issue:

Make the desk more circular so there is more equipment that is within easy reach of the engineer.

Possibly tilt the racks upwards slightly so they recieve more light from above (no pun intended), and are easier to see.

my 2c.

[AV Elec]

These are my favourite LCD mounts for lecturn/desk applications. You will not be dissapointed:U

http://www.atdec.com/Content_Common/pr-SPACEDEC_Articulated-Arm.seo

[AV Elec]

The racks are hard to get to, and it will be hard to see and adjust equipment when there isn't much light about

I would prefer the panels surrounding the rack to be removable for access when working on the racks

The stuff on the left and right sides of the desk will be hard to reach in a hurry and without straining the back. Anything there would have to be seldom used

I agree

How are cables getting from the desk to the racks and back

This needs to be considered. Perhaps a timber channel for cables.

Will those wooden panels get in the way should you decide to get a bigger mixing desk in the future

I agree. Also, I don't think they are necessary.

Make the desk more circular so there is more equipment that is within easy reach of the engineer

I agree

[BozInOz]

Cables:
Behind the main sound desk there is a large hole in the desk, and circular holes in the two side cabinets connecting them to a space behind the drawer. Does that make sense? I've included a picture.

[AV Elec]

Have you thought about power points?

What about portable equipment people might bring in. Can they easily plug it in into connection points accesable?

[BozInOz]

I had a good look at the new mixer today, which allowed me to take some measurements and make sure it fits nice and neatly.

It became apparent that with the flip top it will be hard to access the top of the mixer. I've quickly knocked up plans for a sliding top. Which added some curves I didn't want. Functionally it should be very good. However, I'm not happy with the design which seems to be confused as in what genre and era it's from.

With the larger mixer and the dual screen it's blown the top to 2746 x 700mm. The only issue in making the desk longer is in transport to the install. However, because it will slot in where a pew currently sits I can't make it too deep. Which also rules out making the desk more circular.

[bucket1]

You could hinge the front part of the slide and keep the square shape. :)

[nattybyrne]

at my church the cover over our sound desk is like byfold doors on its side mostly using piano hinge timber width is say 100mm. works well as there is enough room to access top of desk. this way keeps it square

[BozInOz]

A company that makes roll top desks....
Looks straight forward I think I'll run with that for the desk.
http://www.hsarolltops.com/index.html

[soundman]

Roll tops..... ARRRRGH... sorry.

I have a real problem with roll tops......in short there is no free lunch....they actulay take up a lot of room and there is always an overhang.
I've been involved with a few and they are always a PIA.

In churches they always want you to take up less space.

the best option for the to is mulit fold sectional...where the to folds up & stacks at the back of the desk.....I've seen plenty of variations on that theme....... but the best is being able to either remove the stack of lid or slide it forward on its cleats to facilitate repatching.

Racks under the desk is pretty well unavoidable in churches.....apart from the fact..... most of the time you don't want the operator touching anything in the rack, particulary EQ & compression.....I will frequently fit security covers or place the thinks you dont want touched in a seperate section keyed to differ from the rest of the cabinets.

Its best to close in the entire desk top with lockable covers rather than sections, that way things can be left beside the mixer, locked up, such as headphones, radio mic packs & other stuff.
bringing record and playback machines above the desktop can be a good idea. Payback more so than record..... make sure you have a decent section of clear desk top so you can lay out, scripts for musicals, cd/ cass backing tracks for soloists & such.

Make sure you build this thing tough....I know of plenty of gear being knocked off from churches..... consider bolting stuff in the rack with allen key bolts.....that will slow down both the theves and the fiddlers.
remember a big look is pointless if you can just undo the screws in the hinges.


Pay good attention to ventilation in your racks....if you need to force ventilate......... you problay should....... use 12V fans runn on a lower voltage....I frequently use either multi voltage plug packs or voltage reg boards to controll fan speed and noise......most 12V computer fans will rin fine at 6 volts....a good may will be fine at 5 volts..... use big fans or lots of & run em slow.....even at 9 volts the noise reduction is significant.

For the LCD
there is a flup up bracket available for mounting LCD's under cupboards..... spring loaded all that...... you could just invert one of those or mount it under the back lip with the screen canterlevered so it pops up.


or just lay it on its back & shut the top.

make sure it is good & solid...... particularly that nothing squeaks or makes noises..........especilay chairs......

as for cable access..... a string of 50mm holes is hard to beat.

Do Not put too many power points where they are easily visible or accessable...people will want to use them and get realy cut when you tell them they cant.

having the racks underneath on wheels can be good and bad....if the racks are fixed have a door in the side or back.
don't bother with heaps of powerpoints under the desk..... put a 10 way power board in the back of the rack screwed to the side.

OH
You do have at least 1 power circuit for your exclusive use with is own breaker, and a seperate one for the AV guys with their dirty computer gear.:D

enough for now

cheers

[BozInOz]

I've just spent a good portion of the morning designing a way to mount the rails and a roll top, only to log in to share and see... "roll tops arghhh!!" lol

I'll post what I've done this morning then I'll take detailed look at soundman's thoughts.

Cheers
Boz

[soundman]

The biggest problem with roll tops apart from the extra space they take up is that it makes the entire length of the wall behind the desk completely useless for any form of cabling access or mounting of cabling hardware such as power points and plate mounted connectors. unless you add a false wall in front of where the top ends up.

the entire back wall becomes a no go area.

another problem with roll tops is once they get some age under them, they can get very unreliable.....I had one client that had a roll top where the track was routed in MDF..... guess how long that lasted.
I told em but the architect wouldn't listen......
roll tops.... trouble from start to finish.

sectional panel is definitely the way to go......the carcas work is very similar to the roll top but you don't beed any curves or tracks or....or....or.... or having to be precisely square and paralell
its just a whole lot simpler to build & live with all round.

just cut your lid into near equal slabs & alternate the hinging...secure it in place with draw bolts.......if you want the whole thing to come off or slip forward for patching just bake the back panel with a lip that goes under a toungue at the back.......4 sections is the go....back section lays flat next section hinges up, next down and the front swings 270 deg
3 across the top and one down the front.
or 3 sections and the flat bit hinges up and the front hniges down to meet.

it also gives you a working shelf for bring in gear when stacked.

cheers

[noodle_snacks]

Another consideration, I was doing some sound work for a theatre production. Myself and the audio gear (2 mixers and a couple of racks), was set up at the back of the audience at the Theatre Royal. It was dark and the christmas tree of lights from all the gear was distracting to the audience members seated at the back. Some black cloths were used to take the gear out of the audience's field of view. This will likely need to be taken into consideration if the gear is in a position that would be a distraction to the audience.

[BozInOz]

Latest pics...

[BozInOz]

Roll tops..... ARRRRGH... sorry.

I feel the passion. You sound like like a man that's had your heart hurt one too many times by those roll top and I like the multi fold idea.

I am however young and perhaps naive :) and I think roll tops are the best plan so far. I worked out that they should only cover about 15cm at the top on the racks and will sit infront of the persons feet under the mixerdesk.

Although I have a jig or two which has proven MDF true, this time it should, only be of solid wood. But we're not up to timber yet.


Racks under the desk is pretty well unavoidable in churches.....apart from the fact..... most of the time you don't want the operator touching anything in the rack, particulary EQ & compression.....I will frequently fit security covers or place the thinks you dont want touched in a seperate section keyed to differ from the rest of the cabinets.

Exactly the thoughts I had. Behind the desk is an asile then more pews. Can't stack racks on the desk and block pews. And also I don't want people fiddling. Have two racks with seperate locks will aid in this, and the plan is for the small mixer to be operational without opening the racks.



Make sure you build this thing tough....I know of plenty of gear being knocked off from churches..... consider bolting stuff in the rack with allen key bolts.....that will slow down both the theves and the fiddlers.
remember a big look is pointless if you can just undo the screws in the hinges.

It should be tough. That's the plan. The wood for the roll top on last plan was 18x5mm which isn't that solid. But if someone's going to hack off the rolltop, they might as well hack into the side. The security mesh will be built inside frames, so no exposed screws or bolts etc.



Pay good attention to ventilation in your racks....if you need to force ventilate......... you problay should....... use 12V fans runn on a lower voltage....I frequently use either multi voltage plug packs or voltage reg boards to controll fan speed and noise......most 12V computer fans will rin fine at 6 volts....a good may will be fine at 5 volts..... use big fans or lots of & run em slow.....even at 9 volts the noise reduction is significant.


Now ventilation I haven't got my head around. I like the idea. Where would you put the fans. I'm thinking near the persons feet to get cross flow out the back.

I've also thought of putting some slim line flouresences or LED to light the racks and desk. But not sure how it would happen.


For the LCD
there is a flup up bracket available for mounting LCD's under cupboards..... spring loaded all that...... you could just invert one of those or mount it under the back lip with the screen canterlevered so it pops up.
Yeah, not following 100%. Need to keep thinking about this one.



or just lay it on its back & shut the top. not on a roll top

[BozInOz]

Here's some pics of the current sound desk... you have too look hard.

My thoughts were to follow the theme of the existing wood... but I just don't like it.

[soundman]

the best option I have come up with for ventilating racks is to make the back section of the rack pretty well airtight and blow the air in from the bottom at the side or the bottom right near the back.
if there is a desk...putting the intake fans under the desh also lowers the noise aparant in the room.

for exaust air fit 1RU vent panels at various places in the rack....leave no empty spaces if there isnt a piece of gear or a vent panel put a blank plate in to fill the hole......the air will then enter at the back and the whole cabinet will be preasurised and a flow will come out between equipment.
manipulating what equipemnt is where and where blank and vent panels are you can realy get heat under controll.........remember to allow a 1RU blank between some items to minimise hot spots.

if you want to run with the door closed..... the best bet I have found is to fit the dorr accurately for width but leave a gap of 10 to 20mm....depending on airflow required at both top & bottom.

the air space between the front of the gear and the door acts as a plenum taking exaust air and providing a muffling effect for fan & other noises inside the rack....... remember your amps may have fans also that make noise.


one other problem with roll tops is they are realy easy to break into....unless they are the metal or plastic ones you get from hafle all you need is a knife.
just stick the knife between a pair of slats toward the front & slit the backing cloth It the whole top section just rolls back:o

then there is the problen where some idiot jumps on the roll top popping the slats out of the track..

cheers

[BozInOz]

Cooling.
I've been pondering this. The current design includes large areas of secruity mesh to allow open ventilation.

I was pondering your thoughts and strangely my computer case. An antec number which has tunnelled ventilation.

I found these 200mm 12v fans. http://www.antec.com/pdf/flyers/BIgBoy_sellsheet.pdf.

Roll Tops.
Hmmm... secruity... the idea of breaking in with a craft knife... or sharped credit card doesn't excite me very much.

Options as I see it:
1. roll tops - as above problems
2. multifold top - I like it
3. solid top
4. solid top - slides back into box... original plan

[BozInOz]

Doors

Pros
Cons
Roll Tops

Easy to open/close
Relatively easy to build
Allows cables to be easily tunnelled through sides.
Sides open for ventilation.
Space saving.
Wood panels are held together with canvas... any one with a craft knife will be able to cut the canvas and separate the panels. Not much security, but it is locked within building anyway. Could place lock at top, so that if cut the locked panel won’t move and keeps it closed.
Multifold (byfold) doors

Space saving.
Simple.
Ugly.
Simple Door

Simple.
Large swing space required and will stick out.
Doors which slide back into unit

Technically impressive, easy to open/close.
Space saving.
Easy to secure.
Will have to cut into support slide to allow cables through side.
Will have to redesign ventilation as sides will be covered.
Slide off
Simple.
Removable parts that could get damaged.
Ugly.
Remember need design for racks and for mixer.


Power
I thought a simple way to give power to the desk was to use a computer PSU and use case mod parts...
Cooling
Was looking for low voltage fans and found antec 200mm fans, that have speed control and should be relatively quiet. I’m using a antec case it’s pretty quiet.
~$40 each.
www.techbuy.com.au

Could leave the system open and for passive ventilation or could develop a duct system and develop a cross flow effect.

Lighting
Was pondering LED lights, a friend suggest slim line florescence... I fold this cold cathode ones that reviewed nicely.
~$40 for 2
www.techbuy.com.au

Finishing
There are various finishing products available. The two products I’ve been most happy with are Organoil oils and Feast Watson Satinproof poly.
I prefer to use organoil hard burnishing oil.
http://www.organoil.com.au/woodcraft/index.html (http://www.organoil.com.au/woodcraft/index.html)
http://www.feastwatson.com.au/ClearSatinproof.asp (http://www.feastwatson.com.au/ClearSatinproof.asp)

Tools
I plan to join up with the Wauchope wood workers group.. they have a Men’s Shed where members can use thier machines as I don’t have thicknessers, planers, jointers etc.
I’ll need to pick up some router bits and a few other things.

LCD mount
I’ve done a fair amount of searching on the net for LCD mounts... nothing’s come up that’s very impressive. Either very expensive (1-$3000) and for plasmas or fixed non movable.

Price
I added up the wood this morning for the frames and panels and bench... not including the internal system and misc pieces.
Wood came to around ¼ cubic m – wood will be around 1000-2500 cubic m.

Wood - $500-750
Oil - $40
Metal (hinges, latches, locks) - $100 (depends on design... haven’t thought much about this yet.)
Lighting...
Cooling...
Total.... less than $1000.

Ways to save money... use cheaper wood, use ply for the interior, use milk crates...

[skermo83]

Hi, i just starting researching on the net for some ideas for a new sound desk console and stumbled across this thread, very informative thanks! i was just wondering how boyfromoz ended up and if he has constructed anything yet? cheers

[BozInOz]

Unfortunately the church leadership opted for something else. I have a great dread of MDF on saw horses but anyway.
Perhaps next summer when I have more time I'll check in on them and see how it went.