Japanese chisels for beginner

[planetjag]

As a woodworking newbie, it's time for me to look at investing in some chisels. There is something about Japanese chisels that really appeals to me, but I'm not sure what. Maybe it's just because they're a bit different to chisels I've always seen in the past.

I'd be curious to know what the benefits of them are, especially at the lower end of the market which is where I'll be looking.

Also, a more specific question: are the economy butt chisels from Carbatec any good? The ones sold individually for $30-40. Or is it a waste of money to buy these? Further to this, what's the difference between a butt chisel and non-butt(?) chisel? Is it just length?

Is there a better option at this end of the market?

jonathan

[Sheets]

Hi, Jonathan. Always a bit of a dilemma trying to decide on how much to spend on tools.
When you're starting out, you don't need the most expensive tools going. I'd select something in the middle of the range, even low end cost-wise if you think the quality is there. Its certainly good to have a forum like this to ask others opinions. Just like the range of tools, you'll get a range of opinions about what's best.
Basically, a Japanese chisel is hard edge steel laminated to less hard steel. The hard edge steel can take a very fine edge and stay sharp longer than a comparable non-Japanese chisel. But all tools have limits. You can chip, bend or otherwise mess up the most expensive tools just as easily as less expensive. There is always a learning curve and part of that curve is to make mistakes. Better to make the mistakes on something you've invested less money on. After you learn from your mistakes, then you can "upgrade" if desired.
To me, if the tool is sharp, it will do what its supposed to do. Its cost is irrelevant from that perspective. Now, if you're someone who hates to sharpen, then you might want to consider the "blue steel", as its supposed to hold its edge longer than other steel. I think some people interpret blue steel's qualities as meaning "never-have-to-sharpen". But eventually, (depending on how much use a tool sees or if it gets chipped) you have to sharpen your tools and I'd rather be good at it than bad and sometimes, those mistakes you make happen during sharpening, so again, better to learn on less expensive stuff.
I'm not a professional, just an amateur, so my tools aren't expensive and I'm happy with them. I've made my mistakes, but nothing fatal to the tools, so they are still going strong (some are 20+ years old. I've bought from Lee Valley Tools and various sellers on Ebay). I do consider the more expensive ones, but I really don't think I could tell the difference. If the tool is sharp, it will do what you want.
So, my opinion. Hope it helps you decide.
Steve
Oh, and butt chisels are sort of like standard-use chisels. Made to be struck with a hammer in the course of normal woodworking. There may be regional differences in length and some other detail (bevel or not, etc.). There are similar chisels made more stoutly for more heavy-duty use and then chisels with much longer length for timber framing, etc. Also, there are special mortice chisels which have a uniform cross-section. I could go on as there is quite a long list of chisel types beside butt (oire nomi)
chisels. Maybe the tool glossary covers them more completely. If you can get a hold of Toshio Odate's book, "Japanese Woodworking Tools", it is very a comprehensive description of tool types and the differences between each type.
p.s.,
I just looked at the chisels on the Carba-tec website, and I think they'd be fine. You don't get a label, fancy box and the finish may be slightly less than others, but I think the basic construction and materials would be fine. I can't see a company like this selling something that would perform so badly or not stand up to reasonable use.

[Green Woodchips]

Hey there.

My Japanese chisels are a mix of old and new.

The newies were pretty cheap, but I've been very impressed with them. Kakuri is the brand. I had a Kakuri plane that had fabulous edge-holding ability. When an opportunity came up to consider their chisels, I gave it a go. No regrets.

I also have a number of vintage Japanese chisels that I've restored. I acquired these through trawling the 'Bay. They are all excellent quality pieces which were very reasonable in price. Though they take a bit of work to restore, the quality of these handmade pieces is something else.

Cheers,
GW

[planetjag]

Thanks for the feedback folks.
I think I'll start saving my $$ - I need to do this even for a cheap set, and might go ask some questions in the non-japanese forums to learn about other chisels too.

Green Woodchips - where did you get the Kakuri chisels from?

[soatoz]

Hi,
Sorry to post so late. Maybe you've already made the purchase. In that case I hope you are enjoying it now:)

But just in case I'll just write couple of things that might be helpful.

Japanese chisels are normally handmade, so the price tend to be a bit more expensive compared to factory made western chisels to begin with. So think maybe double to get an equal overall quality to western chisels with Japanese. If you spend $40 on J chisel, it should be half the quality of $40 western chisel. Somethng like that. The steel itself would probably be harder, but overall fit and finish should definitely be worse.

Basically you can roughly devide into three what you are paying for, one is the performance, two the finish, and lastly the rarity.

You'd probably want to be paying 70% for the performance 30% for the fit, and none for the rarity.

The quality of the steel performance greatly differes between more expensive ones and economy tools, probably more so than you would imagine, even when the two uses the same material/steel type. It's like food, where two chefs uses same materials and ingredients, one can taste much better if the chef's skill is better than the other. So I suggest not to just choose with the steel type. I can't emphasize this enough. Price is basically the easiest factor for you to refer to, the rest you might want to talk with the shop and see what would suit your need.

There are soft as butter Blue Steel tools and super hard and long lasting White Steel tools (these are of course more expensive). The general belief that alloys are longer lasting is not always true. This is true only after certain level, and reversed again after another certain level. Believe it or not, the longest lasting (staying sharp longer, not staying longer after dulled) tools are not the alloys but carbon steel tools.

So again, basiclally the price should tell you the quality. $40 blue steel chisels would be softer and shorter lasting compared to $70 white steel chisels. Blue steel is 30% more expensive compared to White steel becuase it has more expensive non-ferum substances in it, so if you are getting economy tools, I recommend getting white steel tools, because that way you're paying more for the final quality of the tool (skill of the blacksmith) rather than on the raw material.


Cheaper blue steel tools are not "longer lasting", but "longer lasting after it gets dulled", and yet harder to sharpen. Do you see what I mean? This is because the steel molecule is not fine and carbons not dispersed evenly. Imagine cement to ceramics. Better tools are like ceramics, finer in the grain (fine carbides = Fe + C) so easier to sharpen (the grains/carbides itself cannot be ground, but the grains can/will "fall off". that is what you are doing when sharpening) and can be sharpened to extreme sharpness (smaller pieces to construct the edge), where as cheaper tools are like cement where there are many larger molecules which tend to break off (because carbides cannot be cut with stones) resulting as a chip after one strike and doens't get sharp (because again the carbides cannot be sharpened). So, there's a good reason for the expensive price at least maybe up until $150 for 24mm, after that it starts to become about the fine finish, and after $300 it's about rarity. So unless you go over $150 for 24mm, this is my opinion so there might be many who disagrees, but I think every cent is well paid contributing basically solely to the performance.

I'd have to go deep into metallurgy in order to fully explain to the level where you can actually "imagine" the difference, but in short best tools can be super hard and durable yet very easy to sharpen (very contradicting) while cheaper tools can be hard to sharpen and brittle and soft. This difference, you'd only believe when you actually try it.

People might think that the price doesn't reflect the performance too much, becuase when they ask the shops what the difference is between the more expensive tools and the cheaper ones, they often cannot/don't answer properly, some shops might just say "it's the overall finish, the quality is the same...." The reason they can't/don't answer is probably either because they don't really know the difference (this is probably the majority of the case), or that it is as you can see too time consuming to explain the difference. I'm doing this as my hobby, so I spend a lot explaining, that's mainly why I can't post new articles on the forum these days.... I have too many enqiries these days.

If you work with harder woods, you might want to consider the quality of the chisel a bit, because it is really frustrating to be using soft tools on a hard woods. Sometimes it is basically useless, one bang and the edge is gone.

If you are only working with softwoods, economy tools should be just fine. No problem whatsoever.

My recommendation would be tho to spend at least $60 (for 24mm) if you are planning on woodworking for a long time. You go any lower and you might end up replacing it with a better one in the future after all. Please understand that this is my "personal opinion" and I never mean to say this is the "only truth". I have to be careful when I write this kind of stuffs in public.... Just in case, I'm not saying below $60 chisels are no good, but depending on the usage, it might not be as easy to use. For instance, you might have to sharpen 5 times to finish a certain job, whereas with a better one you only need to sharpen once, espcially when working with harder woods.

If I were to get you one I'd recommend Hidesada (this one is not listed yet) or Kikuhiromaru (this one will satisfy you for your lifetime. It is not as expensive because they use this secret technique to laminate the steel with less cost, but the quality is guarranteed).

Oh! but it might be a good idea to start with super cheap ones, if you have never sharpened J tools. Keeping the back hollow shape is very difficult, so you don't want to get a good one from the beginning and ruin it. In this case $15 China made factory laminated one should be the best. It still has the back hollow so it'll give you good practice. Groggy has one so he might be able to tell you where and how to get them.

I hope any of this would help.

Thanks

[STAR]

This thread really interests me. especially Soatoz contribution. My daughter is going to Japan next week for seven days. She lived there for five years, speaks the language, and now works for an international airline.

She has many friends in Japan and is staying with a family who I have met when they visited Australia. Because of the opportunity, I have asked her to see if she can purchase some Japanese Woodwork tools. Because she and I realize that the the steel in Japanese knives is vastly superior to what is ( normally ) available here in Oz I have given her a few pages from the carb a tec catalogue to see if she can improve on them.

It is not so much the price , but the quality i am looking for, They will be a collector's item that might get used for those special intricate jobs that need a delicate touch.

The No 1 on my list is a Japanese detailing Saw which does the inlaying with very fine cuts.

No 2. The Japanese Butt Chisel 6mm so I can get into those corners in very hard wood

No 3 the Japanese Flush Cut Saw

Am I right in that this would be a good start to appreciate if these tools are worth collecting.

[planetjag]

Wow. Thanks Soatoz. That's a huge amount of useful information.

I get the feeling from your post that you sell this sort of stuff yourself. Is that correct? I might be betraying my newbie-ness here.

jonathan

(http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/member.php?u=14833)

[Green Woodchips]

Hey there.

I got my Kakuri chisels through a member of this forum ... it was a while ago now, and the gent concerned was very generous of heart and very helpful. But I'm reluctant to give out his details as it was something of a personal favour.

If you know someone in Japan, then that might help. Or else try seeing if someone online sells them. Sorry I can't help much more than that.

Cheers,
GW

[soatoz]

Wow. Thanks Soatoz. That's a huge amount of useful information.

I get the feeling from your post that you sell this sort of stuff yourself. Is that correct? I might be betraying my newbie-ness here.

jonathan



Yeah sure, I can basically get any brand, whether it be a Kakuri, Kikuhiromaru, Funahiro, Kunikei, Tasai, Kiyohisa, Hidari Ichihiro, Fujihiro, Nagahiro, Hidari Hisasaku, you name it.:2tsup:

But again, I think Hidesada (this you can probably only get thru me) and Kikuhiromaru would be my recommendation for a beginner if you are after something you won't have to grow out of too easily, but not spend too much. Kikuhiromaru is basically impossible to grow out, definitely not an entrant model, but the price is affordable so I thought it could be a good option.

The most skilled J carpenters heavily rely on Kikuhiromaru's super cost effectiveness and their availability. Availability meaning, when you order a tool from say Funahiro or Kiyohisa (they are the best of the best in J in my opinion, performance wise they have easily surpassed the legendary Hidari Ichihiro, which cost over $400 each now in J.) it takes one year, some times even 2 years with Funahiro if you order something special, to receive their tools, and that kind of wait is just way too inconvenient for the professional carpenters. Whereas Kikuhiromaru can comply in a month to 3 months at most, and the quality is maybe 90 to 95% of the very best ones, and the price about 3/5 to 2/3, so Kikuhiromaru tools are very very ve~~~~ry popular among J carpenters.

But you might want to read the posts regarding J chisel sharpening in this J tool section, and see if you are up to start from a high quality ones (you probably need to get a couple right?) from the beginning, or get a second hand or super cheapo (I can supply both) to practice the back flattening (uraoshi). Front is not a problem, the back is the problem. 50% of the cutting performance is defined by the back polishing. No matter how well you polish the front, if the back is not properly flattened (it needs to be seriously flat) it will not cut as it should.

I've included in Groggy's set, a piece (was it the 24mm?) that has been polished (of course by me) to the max when I sent him his set, which he has posted a review of in this section. I've done this several times for someone who wanted to see what a properly sharpened and polished chisel should look like, but I normally suggest getting a second hand ones sharpened because if you have the new one you get from me sharpened, you won't be able to use it if you are going to keep it as a reference.

Anyway, no matter how badly you sharpen the front bevel, it can be recovered, but once you deform the back hollow, it's gonna basically stay that way for the rest of your chisel's life, so you might want to consider that a little bit. But if you are someone who can master things thru books with a bit of practice, the mentioned articles might suffice to enable you to make the back properly. If you don't fully get what I'm talking about here, there's a high chance you are going to ruin the back, so I suggest getting Odate-san's book on J tools (man this book is so~~~ good!) and in the meantime get a second hand or cheapo and practice!:)

I still have a couple of copies of Odate-san's book. You can get them for the same price from Kinokuniya bookstore in Sydney. Either way is fine but I strongly recommend you get this book, not just you, but anyone who's reading this and are into J tools. If you already have a copy, then get another one so that you can keep it at the office, toilet, in the car etc.:D Seriously it's tha~~~t good. Can't J tool without it.

You can read the detail of this book here.

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/books/Toshio_Odate_JP_WW_Tools/Toshio_Odate_JP_WW_Tools.html

Thanks~~~~

[soatoz]

Am I right in that this would be a good start to appreciate if these tools are worth collecting.

G'day STAR,

Is this question directed to me? I'm not sure so I'll just answer just in case.

It's really a difficult question.

Since you haven't mentioned which maker you are thinking of getting those tools from, I really can't say much. But apart from the 6mm chisel, both saws are quite specialized in their usage, aren't they?

If you are looking for general woodworking tools, then a couple of chisels (sizes would depend on what kind of things you make), maybe 48mm and 60mm double blade plane, a 8sun (240mm) saw, a gennou (without a handle), shirahiki (marking knife), and a kehiki (marking gauge) would be the standard set of tools to start out.

If you were to get the collectible level tools (by a Japanese standard) from each category, just by sending someone who's able to speak Japanese might not suffice. The shop masters, especially from the shops which carry such special tools, tend to "choose" customers.... They could seriously be arrogant and sometimes even hostile. When a westerner recieves such "treatment", they always think it's because they are not Japanese, and that's natural, but trust me that isn't the case! They are the same to Japanese as well. Even I am treated like that more often than not until they get to know about me a bit more.

You'd have to pass their test in order for them to even just show (not sell) you anything special, and you'd have to keep visiting them and buy cheaper tools to start out with, and then they might start to sell you one or two special ones. I know this sounds weird from a western standard, but that's part of the Japanese culture, and you could even say the reason why J tools are so sophisticated. I won't go into this here but in short I think this kind of culture is coming from sword shops' attitude....

Sword shops will never ever show a first time customer anything special. You think this kind of attitude is arrogant, then try this, the most exclusive shops/restaurants/etc. have this policy called "Ichigen-sama Okotowari (this is a very famous expression in J)" meaning first time customers not accepted! You'd have to be introduced by a long time customer in order to just enter....

So, they won't just sell to anyone, no matter how much you are willing to pay, so unless you send someone who speaks fluent Japanese and be able to convince that he/she knows how to properly use them, it is likely that the shop master(s) would just recommend entrant level tools, and not even "show" the best ones.... Also, no single shop would carry all the above mentioned items, so you'd have to go around various shops, and still might not find anything special.

Tsuchida hamono-ten would probably carry everything, but this shop is way too difficult to buy anything for your daughter, she might have a bad experience, so I don't recommend. Your daughter might not even be able to find the shop. The shop is basically only 1m x 2m square, so only one person can enter the shop, and there's a small counter and Tsuchida-san will be sitting on the other side. No where to hide, no where to wonder around, no tools are displayed, so you HAVE TO talk to the master what you need and what you are going to use it for. So in a sense entering that environment itself is a test to begin with. Not that Tsuchida-san is an unkind person, but he does test the customers. He starts out really grumpy, and unless you can convince him that you have the skill set, he stays that way thru out. Once you convince him, he is super kind and helpful. So, so many people love him, and so many people detest him. No one in between.

Tools that are worth collecting.... that really depends on the defenition of collection I suppose. For instance, Tasai Mokume chisel set which cost well over $1000 would never be considered a collection piece in Japan (because it can readily be bought as long as you have the cash) unless it is an old one made by Akio (father), but it is beautiful piece of tools which would definitely be considered a collection piece if it was out of Japan. Some might consider an old rusty used chisel bought off ebay for $15 a collection piece, simply because it looks old and rustic and very Japanese. It does make a nice ornament or decoration of some sort. But again in Japan, as a tool it might have no value at all.

Sorry I'm not too clear but this much is all I can write for now.

Thanks

[Groggy]

I've included in Groggy's set, a piece (was it the 24mm?) that has been polished (of course by me) to the max when I sent him his set, which he has posted a review of in this section. This is a special kind of mental torture invented by Japanese tool-sellers. They provide one exceptionally sharpened chisel just so you know you will never achieve that standard of perfection - ever :C .

Seriously though, the benefit of one chisel being well tuned cannot be underestimated. By looking at it I have been able to know whether I am on the right track or not when doing the others. I think it was finished with a high quality natural Japanese stone as the finish is 'smoky' or 'pearl' in nature, not shiny, like the Shapton finish.

I am very happy with my J chisels (other than the fact that one of them makes the rest look bad :- )

[Groggy]

So, I find the history and background that you provide very interesting, thank you. :2tsup:

[STAR]

Soatoz.

I am well over my head here. Thank you for taking the time to answer my request for information. Your reply was appreciated and the contents noted.

My daughter is an accomplished Japanese speaker but her knowledge of tools is below basic. She has many friends in Japan and the family she is staying with own 22 racehorses and live in a unit on Nagoya racecourse. He is an ex jockey who was very successful. We have met him and his wife in Australia and they have been to our house.

I think for this trip i have told her about " Tokyu Hands " a Japanese craft Store that apparently cater for all crafts and hobbies including wood work. In Tokyo apparently it is over six floors of crafts , etc.

In Nagoya there are two stores and she says she has been to the one in Tokyo but unlike her sister is not that craft orientated.

It may appear to you, that the difference between Tokyu Hands and a Japanese Master is greater then a GMC and a Festool, which should not be mentioned in the same sentence.

I am at the bottom of the food chain, a lowly amoeba, when it comes to wood work , but I like to have some nice items , as a collector piece,

I will let you all know what she gets and hope to follow up with you so that you can advise me and hopefully organize and supply, some Japanese Cutting tools for a beginner.

Thanks.