Help with low line unit Joints, edg gluing and everthing else...Newbie

[Jonesy_SA]

Hi all.
Just joined the group after reading for a couple of days as you all seem quite knowledgeable and understanding to newcomers. I usually work with steel and mechanical items but have wanted to get into more woodwork for many years.

I recently purchased a 42in Plasma which weighs 50 odd kilos and my previous entertainment unit (set drawers modified with glass doors to resemble a type of low line unit) is struggling under the weight. I had a look around some furniture shops and found a nice unit for the 500-600 dollar mark but would really love to make one myself to gain some knowledge, have fun and possibly be proud of my work. I also have a unique but basic bed which my design in based on.

I have attached two images (feel free to laugh I don’t have time to master CAD ;-) )
The first image shows the bulky frame design and the second shows it filled in with the finer details. I would like to build the frame from timber approx 120mm +/- square. I like the look of this basic yet bulky/fat design and matches well with my bed. The total length of unit is approx 2mt, 700H, 500 deep. These are approx and may change slightly.
I also toyed with the idea of using two types of wood, i.e. pine frame work and a red coloured wood as the top etc. Also notice how the top does not sit on the frame but instead sits within the rails flush with top of the rails.


As this is my first project with wood I was hoping to build it as cheap as possible, i.e. recycled timber and cheap timber, nothing fancy.
Tools, I and my step dad have a collection of tools including: Triton bench, buzz saw, sanders, chisels, jigsaw, router etc However I am happy to purchase more if I can see it being used in the future i.e. biscuit cutter.

My questions:
- What are the best ways to join the frame?
as you can see from the image I have mitred the legs and front and rear top rails to create a clean finish, the front and rear are then joined by short side pieces. My understanding of a mitred corner joint is that it is simply to half’s cut at 45 degrees, attached with glue and possibly a biscuit? This doesn’t seem strong enough to me? Should I reinforce this join with a steel angle bracket slightly recessed to hide it? What is best way to attach the side pieces to the mitred section, I could only think of using an angle bracket again. Remember this is a heavy TV.
Should I use a different method to attach these pieces? I looked on the net at various corner joints and only the mitre was attractive to me except for this design I found on this forum:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=65116
I know I am using single big slabs of timber but I could probably create a similar joint by cutting male and female slots into the ends to join with each other. However once again I'm not sure how to attach the side pieces unless I use angle steel brackets and as im new to wood im avoiding complicated or difficult work.
What are everyone’s recommendations?

- as I am a Newbie to woodwork it came at no surprise to learn that the tops (or in my case my top inserted between frame rails) can’t be bought at the local salvage yard as one slab but is instead lengths of timber joined together in a near seamless finish. Probably something I should have learnt before spending an hour looking then asking a timber guru who gave me a funny expression towards my complete lack of knowledge :-D .

I originally thought of using old floor boards as my top but these are flimsy and I wasn’t sure how they would turn out, while at the timber yard I seen a finished piece made from some timber 'end joined' and sanded and it had a real nice professional finish to it. I noticed allot of you guys are doing the same thing and would love to try it myself. Where abouts can I find out how to do this, i.e. internet, books etc? Could a first timer with good hand skills do this or is it something only the experienced can manage?

- What timber should I use? When finished I will stain it ether a very dark gloss chocolate or if I use pine I could simply stain it in its natural light colour. I no doubt will make some mistakes so I am looking for a cheap wood suitable for my needs, any recommendations?

I am located in Adelaide so local stores would be great if anyone recommends any. Also, I know these questions are long and exhausted and I assure you I am not trying to get anyone to do the hard yards for me. Thus if there is a site or book, or p2p files that would help please let me know so I can save everyone’s time.

Thanks in advance and hopefully with your help I can put this thing together and get my new hobby rolling.

Regards
Jonesy

[IanW]

WElcome to the madhouse (forum) Jonesy. You must be well in contention for the longest first post! :D

Anyway, just a couple of comments on your project:

Doing a leg joint as you have shown is ok, but you should certainly use structural elements such as tenons (solid or loose) to give it useful strength. It is a staple of Chinese joinery, & there are at least 2 ways to do it. There was a long thread on the topic a year or two back (which I can't find in a quick search, but someone else may be able to dig it out for you) and there have been at least two articles in FWW (way back!) describing how to do it by hand or machine methods. You could probably use biscuits ok, especially if you used stretchers &/or made the bottom drawers/cupboard a structural part.

Having a floating panel as the top is also a typical Oriental construction method, and is quite legit as long as you are aware the panel is going to expand & contract a bit, i.e., allow for a bit of movement (wood moves ACROSS the grain, but hardly any movement occurs in the length of a panel).

As to what woods to use - that's a very personal choice, & depends on what's available (softer woods are easier to work, but may be less durable, easier to mark/scuff, etc.), what colours you are after, what wood-butchering weapons you have/are prepared to acquire, what skill levels you have/are prepared to acquire, and the depth of your pocket.....

I will add that to do that corner joint really well is tricky, there are a LOT of surfaces that have to meet very neatly to pull it off convincingly. So practice on some scrap pieces before you rip into the expensive stuff!

Go at it - the best way to learn is to do it....
Cheers,

[artme]

Welcome to our sanctum Jonsey.
Good advice has come your way already.:2tsup::2tsup:
Beware of madness.:oo::oo:

[BobL]

My questions:
- What are the best ways to join the frame?
as you can see from the image I have mitred the legs and front and rear top rails to create a clean finish, the front and rear are then joined by short side pieces. My understanding of a mitred corner joint is that it is simply to half’s cut at 45 degrees, attached with glue and possibly a biscuit? This doesn’t seem strong enough to me? Should I reinforce this join with a steel angle bracket slightly recessed to hide it? What is best way to attach the side pieces to the mitred section, I could only think of using an angle bracket again. Remember this is a heavy TV.
Should I use a different method to attach these pieces?

I agree with IanW, the method you propose is very tricky unless you have some experience it can end up looking very shonky and angle brackets are plain ugly. Seeing as this is your first project I would shoot for functionality over design. As strength is very important I would make a strong mortise and tenon frame (legs and ladder style frame) and place a simple top on top the frame . If you use enough cross pieces in the frame you can use floor boards for the top. To attach the top to the fram I would use something like Z-clips. I think it will look quite cool.

[Jonesy_SA]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the adivice, it has really got my mind going. Im pritty confident that with the tools i have, plus any i purchase i should be able to make something pritty close to the picture.
I havnt been able to find a good link or post on making 'Mortise and Tennon' joints or how to make 'benchtops' (glueing boards together to achive one larger plank) if anyone knows please help. However as im learning one stap at a time it might be a good idea to start at the begiining and build the Frame, or atleast achieve my skill level and then determine where i may need to adjust my drawings.

Im pritty set on the idea of keeping with the mitred front rails and legs, i would love a 3way mitred joint but ill leave that for another day :). Attached is a quick image i made which is self explanitory i think. Would this be the best way to join all 3 timbers without great difficulty.

1st image shows the mitred section simply cut and glued, with the side rail attached via a 'mortise and tennon' joint which cuts through the 45 angles. I thought this would add strenght to all 3 joints?

2nd image shows both joints with a 'mortise and tenon' joint staggered to so as not to conflict with each other. Im not sure if you can incorporate a joint as this into a mitred joint but i dont see why not? More work and difficulty? i guess.

Once i settle on a means by which to join my frame i shall purchase some pine (ive settled on this unless i find a nice cheaper timber of any colour) and try to cut some neat 45's on my triton(unless there is a better way to do it?).
cheers

[m2c1Iw]

Hi Jonesy,
If your set on mitres have a read of the threads on mitre joints (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=598176&postcount=1)for Z chairs and rockers, by Rocker. He has done a lot of experimentation and testing, should give you some good ideas and direction.

Cheers Mike

[IanW]

Jonesey - the joints you have shown look a bit awkward to me, but may work - try one in scrap & do a destructive test. The traditional joint is moderately complex, & needs to be, to avoid cutting into intersecting tenons, which would render any bits distal to the cut rather useless from that point on!

Since your sketch in the original post shows a structure underneath, I would advise incorporating that as a structural element. Use high quality ply, with a matching surface veneer, or other stable material, and screw it into the legs from inside,where it won't show. That way you won't be relying so much on the corner joints to hold eveything together.

I agree with you that the mitred corner joint looks very attractive. I've watched craftsmen in Asia execute it with the most basic-looking tools imaginable, and had a few goes at it myself, with mixed success (attached pic is pulled off the web, to give you an idea of what's involved). So if that's the look you want, go at it - you'll get it right if you practice a bit. The only way to learn in this business is to do. I have often quoted an old bloke who said to me many years ago (the man who never makes a mistake, never makes anything..."
Have a looke here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tUIBBzcRKnUC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=three+way+miter+joint&source=web&ots=neBfTqKJ8m&sig=Jg_6luGKHSVBD_sB9IPADJkl8I8#PPA132,M1

Cheers,