Newbie questions.

[Ch4iS]

I've been only ever dreaming of owning a cnc router till 1 night of searching I found you can actually buy kits you build yourself for a fraction of the price. Actually considered a 8 grand setup but it was small as.

Now I am wanting to build one of these but do not know where to start.


I have never done woodworking/metalworking before (I am 19 and the school I went to never had anything like this which I would have loved). But I do have the basic tools for cutting ect. and anything else I can borrow from my dad.

I have done small odd things but all amatuer.

I was just wanting to know where can I start for building a budget machine? As I did not want to put too much money into my first major project. I have been seeing the controller kits but I was wanting to know if their are any australian sellers and if anyone can recomend anyone as the sites I have seen look dodgy and I dont even know if they are still in business.

If anyone could point me in the right direction to get started with all the electronics that would be great.

[Greolt]

Blue ray

Where are you located? Perhaps you may have an experienced builder nearby.

Take some time and do a lot of reading. CNCzone has an enormous amount of info but it takes a lot of trawling through the dross.

Don't be tempted to rush out and buy anything yet.

I think realistically you need to expect to spend at least $2000. Others may differ on this point. :)

Look around and try to spot the type of machine that you think is within your capabilities to build.

And as I said do lots of reading. Then you will be able to ask more concise questions.

Greg

[Ch4iS]

Blue ray

Where are you located? Perhaps you may have an experienced builder nearby.

Take some time and do a lot of reading. CNCzone has an enormous amount of info but it takes a lot of trawling through the dross.

Don't be tempted to rush out and buy anything yet.

I think realistically you need to expect to spend at least $2000. Others may differ on this point. :)

Look around and try to spot the type of machine that you think is within your capabilities to build.

And as I said do lots of reading. Then you will be able to ask more concise questions.

Greg


Campbelltown, NSW, Australia (45mins south of syd)

I run a small business so 2k is not much as said I was once considering the smaller commercial unit for much more.

Yea, been reading around and some awesome machines some of you have made.


Do you happen to know if anyone is close?

[Greolt]

Campbelltown, NSW, Australia (45mins south of syd)


Do you happen to know if anyone is close?

No but someone might stick their hand up.

Greg

[AV Elec]

What would you like to do with the machine?

[Ch4iS]

What would you like to do with the machine?


cut/engrave perspex
cut wood
cut sheet metal

is this all possible?

[AV Elec]

The sheetmetal will be the issue. Aluminium can be done. You are pushing the capability of a router if you would like to do mild steel or stainless.

[Ch4iS]

The sheetmetal will be the issue. Aluminium can be done. You are pushing the capability of a router if you would like to do mild steel or stainless.


Shouldnt be a problem then as I love perspex so it will be mostly perspex that is done.

BTW been reading up on the best kit and xylotex always comes up and just looking at their prices it doesnt look like a bad entry kit.

I was thinking of either of these

3 Axis System Kit (269 oz.in. motors)
======================
(1) 3 Axis System Kit(269) $325.00
(1) USPS Shipping $47.00
TOTAL $372.00

3 Axis System Kit (HT) (425 oz.in. motors)
======================
(1) 3 Axis System Kit (425) $325.00
(1) USPS Shipping $47.00
TOTAL $372.00


Is it better to get the bigger motors? I plan to make a mid sized cnc nothing too big. Being no price difference I dont know which one I should get.

Also the Drive Boxes are only a system kit setup in a box correct? Why are they $140 more?


Sorry for so many questions. If anyone can answer them I would be greatly appreciated.

[crocky]

Hi Blueray,

There is a bloke at nowra who has a CNC Router, I will try and get him over here :) it a little bit away from you but he is closer than Greg or me. He is decent chap too :)

[rodm]

Hi Blueray

The Xylotex is a good kit and proven to be relaible so long as you read and follow the instructions. Never connect or disconnect a wire or motor with the power on or you will smoke the board. This is not unique to Xylotex.

For a mid sized machine go for the 425oz kit. The control box is the same kit made up to a plug and play unit. The additional $140 is for wiring, plugs and labour cost to assemble and test.

As has been suggested try to see a machine that way you know what you need to do. Don't worry about asking questions as we all did when we started - actually I still ask questions. :)

[Ch4iS]

Hi Blueray,

There is a bloke at nowra who has a CNC Router, I will try and get him over here :) it a little bit away from you but he is closer than Greg or me. He is decent chap too :)

Thanks :), my granny lives in nowra.



Hi Blueray

The Xylotex is a good kit and proven to be relaible so long as you read and follow the instructions. Never connect or disconnect a wire or motor with the power on or you will smoke the board. This is not unique to Xylotex.

For a mid sized machine go for the 425oz kit. The control box is the same kit made up to a plug and play unit. The additional $140 is for wiring, plugs and labour cost to assemble and test.

As has been suggested try to see a machine that way you know what you need to do. Don't worry about asking questions as we all did when we started - actually I still ask questions. :)

Thanks for your input :) Might just grab the basic edition and if all goes to plan I can make a control box out of plex once its put together.



A couple more days of reading and ill place the order will see what type of design I want to build first. BTW is the official site the best site to order these off? http://www.xylotex.com or is there a reseller of theirs which is best to order from? if any.

[rodm]

Yes the official site is where you order xylotex. Look for the Aussie flag and click on there.

[crocky]

I think he is away on course at present and I have left him a message with this one attached so hopefully he will contact you. His name is Daniel by the way and I think he is really from Bombaderry and if you have granny at Nowra you will have reason to visit :)

Xylotex is a good buy and far better than anything else at a similar price :)

[Ch4iS]

Just a few more questions.


Does it matter what the motor ratio to the amount of turns is, is it all programmable via the program used? as I was thinking of maby going with a belt driven X and Y axis to save on costs (Yes I know the problems with belt driven useually a slower production eliminates all problems). Also does anyone know the best place to buy attachements for the motors?

Also I was thinking of using 25mm perspex for the main base. Is perspex acceptable as a replacement for MDF as I hate using wood for any project. The main body parts that require 100% accuracy will be cut professionally by a local laser/router cutting company (not cheap but its accurate).

My budget is $1000 or well trying to keep it under $1000 for the complete frame. I'm going with a basic dremel router and going to have a go with my own design.

[rodm]

Hi Blueray,
You calibrate your machine in the software so any screw/pulley ratio can be used.

Your table surface can be steel or aluminum plate, mdf or perspex so long as it is flat. I have found perspex to vary a bit in thickness so be aware of this. Most use mdf becasue it is flat and if there is an accident with a cutter then you do not loose too much sleep over the cost.

Simso had his machine laser cut and it looks a treat. By laser cutting you can be a bit creative with the design as things like feet and curves in the design are no problem.

[Greolt]

Xylotex is a good buy and far better than anything else at a similar price :)


Just so you are aware this may be going to change.

Gecko are about to release a cheap ($33) drive. 3.5 amp 50 volt

Here is Marriss' latest post about it

The list has changed a little bit:

1) Midband resonance compensation is now included.
2) A trimpot for low-speed smoothness is included.
3) The MOSFEts can be heatsinked now.
4) And get this! There is a genuine green LED power indicator included:-)

Mariss

Some of this is a bit of banter. You would need to read the whole thread. :)

Note this will be a bare drive.

If you need it all packaged up in a box with power supply etc. then Xylotex is still most likely the way to go.

But for me the features for the price are going to be irresistible. :p

Greg

[Ch4iS]

Just so you are aware this may be going to change.

Gecko are about to release a cheap ($33) drive. 3.5 amp 50 volt

Here is Marriss' latest post about it

The list has changed a little bit:

1) Midband resonance compensation is now included.
2) A trimpot for low-speed smoothness is included.
3) The MOSFEts can be heatsinked now.
4) And get this! There is a genuine green LED power indicator included:-)

Mariss

Some of this is a bit of banter. You would need to read the whole thread. :)

Note this will be a bare drive.

If you need it all packaged up in a box with power supply etc. then Xylotex is still most likely the way to go.

But for me the features for the price are going to be irresistible. :p

Greg


:P couple of hours too late. Ordered a Xylotex kit already. Still how much cheaper would it be once you add the motors and power supply kit.

BTW any recomendations on a easy to use 3d program?

[rodm]

Greg,
The Geckos sound like they are worth investagating - 3.5 amp :2tsup:
Any links you can send?


Blueray,
Xylotex are very relaible so you are on the right path there. There probably would not be a lot of difference as you need a drive for each axis with Geckos.

We are all chasing a good, easy to use and cheap 3D program. It extends a bit past this because you also have to be able to draw in 3D. 3D drawings are available that are suitable for CNC work but they cost about $25 upwards per drawing. Tools are being developed for the lower end of the market to be able to digitise solids for machine code but you have enough to worry about with building your machine. Stay with 2D for the moment until you learn how it all works.
For interest sake here is a link to 3D software that creates machine code.
www.vectric.com
They also have an excellent 2D program called VcarvePro that is worth having a look at.

[Greolt]

:P couple of hours too late. Ordered a Xylotex kit already. Still how much cheaper would it be once you add the motors and power supply kit.


As Rod has said the Xylotex ix still a good choice if you want the whole package. You definitely have not wasted your money.

The Geckos won't be that much cheaper but are a bit more sophisticated and have some features that previously were found only in more expensive drives.



Greg,
The Geckos sound like they are worth investigating - 3.5 amp :2tsup:
Any links you can send?

So far as I know this has only been discussed on a thread that Mariss started on the zone. Called "Cheap Drives"

Here is a pic that Mariss posted

Greg

.

[Ch4iS]

Hi, been looking around and been finding good prices for everything I need but I cannot find couplings at a reasonable price. Any Recomendations? I would gather they are cheap but lowest ive seen is like $30 ea.

Ive also chosen to go with a pulley system with a open timing belt so I can have a 150cm long cutting space, ive found both timing belt and pulleys but I am limited to the ones in stock. So does anyone know a good US store for open timing belts + pulleys.


Also with 3 Axis can you still cut gears?

What is the 4th axis? is it the moving of the Z axis on a angle?

[Greolt]

I buy the Lovejoy spider couplings at a local engineering supplies for about $18 each

There is a supplier of belts that advertise on CNCzone but I forget the name. Something like "SDPI"

You can cut some gears. Clock gears are regularly done. See pic. Sorry it is small.

I have seen aluminium pulleys for toothed belt done with a small endmill.

But most gear cutting is done with the use of a fourth or rotary axis, or dividing head.

For a nice example of a belt drive machine look at this link. http://www.romaxxcnc.com/main.html

Greg

.

[Ch4iS]

^-- Found a cheap Ebay seller in the US with some reasonable priced alu gears/pulleys (Decided to go dual acme leadscrews with pulley system)


----------------


Dremel or Die Grinder? is there much difference between the 2? and also what cutting bits are best?

As always any info is greatly appreciated.

[rodm]

Dremil are not accurate enough for CNC. The bottom bearing is mounted in a rubber housing and tolerance is not good enough for fine work. Search for a Proxon which is basically the same as a Dremil but has far better tolerance.

If you are building a medium size machine say 300mm by 400mm then a die grinder is by far the best bang for your dollars. Cheap router work well but fail in 50 to 100 hrs use because they are not made to last. A die grinder seems to get around 500 to 600 hrs before brushes need repalcing and none of us have completly destroyed a die grinder yet - touch wood. Die Grinders come in about $250 upwards but make sure you get variable speed. The barrel type like this are the easiest to mount.
Example (http://www.justtools.com.au/prod2758.htm)

[Ch4iS]

Dremil are not accurate enough for CNC. The bottom bearing is mounted in a rubber housing and tolerance is not good enough for fine work. Search for a Proxon which is basically the same as a Dremil but has far better tolerance.

If you are building a medium size machine say 300mm by 400mm then a die grinder is by far the best bang for your dollars. Cheap router work well but fail in 50 to 100 hrs use because they are not made to last. A die grinder seems to get around 500 to 600 hrs before brushes need repalcing and none of us have completly destroyed a die grinder yet - touch wood. Die Grinders come in about $250 upwards but make sure you get variable speed. The barrel type like this are the easiest to mount.
Example (http://www.justtools.com.au/prod2758.htm)


I got a 1200mm by 1250mm table to work with so I am expecting to use atleast 1000mm length (Why not go all out on my first table :D)

Thanks for the tip about the dremel, ill be going out tommorow to buy a die grinder now :D

Also another post in the suppliers thread I wanted to know if anyone has bought from homeshopcnc and what are the postage costs? I wasnt looking to buy lead screws from Aussie stores as they are like 3x as much. (need 3x 48" and about 10" for the Z Axis)

[rodm]

The solid carbide cutters are the best and you can use upcut or compression mill cutters for cutting out patterns. Vbits 60 degree are best for engraving and ball nose for carving.
If you get solid carbide then you can use the same cutter on aluminum, brass, wood and acrylics. There are special cutters with different shapes for each material but as it is a hobby and there are not unlimited funds I find the standard cutter will work on all materials.
If you purchase overseas you can get these cutters for about $2.00 each for 1/8 up to $7.00 each for 1/4 mill or Vbits but you will be buying in 10 or more for these prices.
For cutting out shapes I mostly use a 4mm upcut spiral as they do not break as easy as a 1/8 bit and for inside cutouts you only have a 2mm radius corner. Engraving I use a 1/4 inch carbide 60 degree bit or a 1/2 inch 60 degree two flute tungsten tip router bit.

[rodm]

All my ballscrews I have purchased from HomeshopCNC and have found them to be very good. Freight is not loaded with handling charges and if you use USPS priority mail you should have your goods in ten days at a reasonable rate.
Australia Post has a limit of 1.05 metres on parcels so you may have problems this end.
I heven't purchased from HomeshopCNC for about six months so I hope my information is current.

[Greolt]

All my ballscrews I have purchased from HomeshopCNC and have found them to be very good.


I'm believe that HomeshopCNC are no longer selling the Nook ballscrews and nuts. :(

Looks like they have a new supplier. Suspect it might be the same stuff as that site you sent me recently Rod.

Greg

[rodm]

I'm believe that HomeshopCNC are no longer selling the Nook ballscrews and nuts. :(

Looks like they have a new supplier. Suspect it might be the same stuff as that site you sent me recently Rod.

Greg

Just had a quick look. Ouch does anyone know of a supplier for the Nooks?

[Ch4iS]

Got my system kit from xylotex, best part about it is the free screwdriver :P

Anyway, off to get some High tensile rods and bearings for my budget sliding mechanism on monday. also getting the leadscrew and ball screw hoping they dont burn a hold in my pocket or I will have to import them :(

Got some gears/pulleys from ebay USA for pretty cheap, awaiting their delivery, el cheapo couplings ($5USD I think) just basic tube with nut on each end (good enough for me). Also some quick connectors for the motors.

Bought a 220cm Belt from small parts to drive the 2 lead screws. (cost $32.80)

My design is pretty bad and I was wanting to put it in 3d like with edesigns with the demensions ect. but I cannot seem to get the trial version to work its just the viewer version. Does anyone know a free 3d program to use so I can plot out my design as I need to work out clearances ect. and get the design off to the perspex place.

[rodm]

I have never used the free screwdrivers yet. It was about the third delivery when I realised they were a screwdriver - I thought it was a pen. :-

If you can post your design it would be good as there are quite few CNC builders on or lurking around here that can point out any design problems. While it does sort of make you feel vunerable it is a good way to make changes now so you don't have it fall over down the track.

It satisfies our CNC voyeurism as well. :D

Have you checked out these yet:
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/20mmLinearMotionSystems
Freight can be calculated on their site and the goods are here in one week.

[Ch4iS]

I have never used the free screwdrivers yet. It was about the third delivery when I realised they were a screwdriver - I thought it was a pen. :-

If you can post your design it would be good as there are quite few CNC builders on or lurking around here that can point out any design problems. While it does sort of make you feel vunerable it is a good way to make changes now so you don't have it fall over down the track.

It satisfies our CNC voyeurism as well. :D

Have you checked out these yet:
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/20mmLinearMotionSystems
Freight can be calculated on their site and the goods are here in one week.

Dam nice prices on that site.

Just wondering I think it was you who said Australia post have a limit of 100cm length. Any problems getting these in?

BTW that site has the best prices ive seen :- "Mainly due to the fact most websites do not display prices"

[WillyInBris]

Dam nice prices on that site.

Just wondering I think it was you who said Australia post have a limit of 100cm length. Any problems getting these in?

BTW that site has the best prices ive seen :- "Mainly due to the fact most websites do not display prices"


I think someone needs to make a call to Australia post and see what would happen on this end, I wouldn't think they would send it back but you may end up paying a courier fee.

The best way to find out would be to call them they have the answers.

[rodm]

It would be worth a phone call for sure.

My take on it is Aus Post have a restriction of 105cm for international parcel and this can be confirmed on their site.

USPS make mention that there are size restrctions to some countries on their site so it is a double edged sword and if this end can be sorted out there is still the senders end to worry about.

[Ch4iS]

Max I was told is 42" ie pretty much 105cm (just over)

I'll have to buy locally.

Been a little delay in getting this off the ground due to my original perspex design costing too much money I have submitted a revision with thinner perspex and hopefully it is not too much.

Got my couplings and gears from the US, was better quality than I was expecting with some of the items, also a E-Stop button, but this was for my original design, so I now need more gears.

When I get some progress done I will post up some pics in a build log, so everyone can see what I was wanting to build :)

[twistedfuse]

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in posting but as Bob pointed out i have been away on a training course for my work and didnt get much of a chance to get online. Now im back i am willing to help out in any way. IF you are down this way to visit your Grandma, i am in Bomaderry and am willing to show you my machine and help you then too. Just pre organise it as i work shift work.

I look forward to helping and following the build. Definately get on and do a build log as you'll meet great people with great ideas who all are very knowledgable. Just look at Bob,Greg and Rod(and the rest). Talk soon,

Daniel.
P.S Greg, were those gears something you made yourself? if so do you have any pictures of your rotary axis?

[twistedfuse]

Never mind Greg. Just browsed the great CNC section now and saw your post. Will definately have to do something like this

[Ch4iS]

NP, Thanks for the offer.

Just been organizing this perspex, its going to burn a hole in my pocket.


The total budget for this project is $2200 so far doesnt look too great.


BTW found a good video tutorial website for a MDF based design http://buildyourcnc.com

Even though the kits he sells would cost too much to ship to australia, I am interested in buying his stepper motor driver kit when it becomes avaliable http://buildyourcnc.com/driverkit.aspx (all dependant on price) "Already got mine just planning ahead :P"

[twistedfuse]

hello again,

yeah that site is great. The expandable version will be a very solid and versitile machine for anyone wanting to get into cnc but who wants a slightly bigger machine. I have a mate ehre at work that ill be helping build a machine and i think he has decided to go with that design. He is going to place the plans and dxf's online soonish he said.

Daniel

[Ch4iS]

Does anyone know where to source the ozito plunge router? bunnings said they would have stock monday or tuesday this week but now im told stock will not be in for about another month.

Been looking online ect. and can only find expencive brand name die grinders/plunge routers/trimmers.

Any online stores that anyone knows of that stocks it?

[echnidna]

Can't help if it must be Ozito brand but Supercheap autos sell a similar type plunge router to the ozito

[AV Elec]

and aldi had one on special last week...

[twistedfuse]

I remember speaking with a guy from bunnings but he said that ozite is an offshoot company that supplies directly to Bunnings. I dont know how much B******T this is but it might explain why there arent any others anywhere. Ebay has one but its a used one. Like Bob said, supercheap has some other brands and i also saw one yesterday at mitre 10 and also one at Kmart. Only difference is that alot of the others wont have as good warranty like the ozito or GMC.

[echnidna]

supercheap has a good warranty

[Ch4iS]

supercheap has a good warranty


how much is the supercheap one?

Also does it have the additional mount for ease of mounting like the ozito one? not 100% sure on what you would call it.

why does supercheap sell a router?

[crocky]

A lot of those of us who started with and Ozito have gone to a Die Grinder, mine is a Millwaukee DG 30 QE and it run out at over $200.

I know that price is the thing that most people look at when buying a router but performance is a big thing too :) and the Ozito just does not have the worlds best bearings and lets face it, it is a cheap router that you use _occasionally_ and not meant for continual use.

It is fine to learn with but you will want something better when you start cutting for real :)

[echnidna]

how much is the supercheap one?

Also does it have the additional mount for ease of mounting like the ozito one? not 100% sure on what you would call it.

why does supercheap sell a router?

1. Most supercheap power tools are 2 years.

2. Dunno what you mean

3. To make money.

[Ch4iS]

A lot of those of us who started with and Ozito have gone to a Die Grinder, mine is a Millwaukee DG 30 QE and it run out at over $200.

I know that price is the thing that most people look at when buying a router but performance is a big thing too :) and the Ozito just does not have the worlds best bearings and lets face it, it is a cheap router that you use _occasionally_ and not meant for continual use.

It is fine to learn with but you will want something better when you start cutting for real :)


I was originally going to buy a die grinder but I was wanting to keep it under the build budget, I dont mind buying a die grinder later on once its all up and running its as you said something to start with.


echnidna I was wanting to know the average price that the supercheap one sells for, also by the additional mount I mean the part when they mount the guide onto it is spose to make it easier to mount it in the cnc router.

http://www.ocm.com.au/images/cnc/Bob%20mount.jpg

^-- Like above.

[echnidna]

are the bearings the only problem with the ozito?

I think the supercheap one is around $68
looks very similar to the ozito

Dunno about the extra bit

[twistedfuse]

I agree with Bob. Money was a big issue for me when i started but performance is critical if you want the best output. I use a metabo die grinder. Very reliable and run for hours and i think its much better than using a massive router(tested my fathers ryobi plunge router in a pre-made mount). I found it easier to mount and smaller which gives more area. Price was alot more than a router but worth every penny from my point of view.

Daniel