open door policy

[weisyboy]

i have decided to work on an open door policy anyone is welcome to come around and watch and have a play or give me a hand with my chainsaw mill.:U

if you have a log that needs milling i would be more than happy for you to bring it along and well give it a whirl.:2tsup:

all i ask is you pitch inn a cupla bucks to help pay for fuel, oil, cain and spare parts whitch can realy add up.:o

i am not trying to make any money out of this simply offering my sevices to help out fellow woodworkers.:;

[wheelinround]

:(( just spoke to LOML and mentioned this she said great I will take you and a trailer load until I told her its in QLD:~

[weisyboy]

its not that far:U

[mikm]

cheers for the kind offer, weisy, but youre a bit far for me :doh:.
this sort of thing is what this forum is all about, i reckon. goodonya.

[BazzaDLB]

Carl,
Great gesture and i'm sure many of us will take you up on it.
Do we have to supply caramel tarts for morno???

[weisyboy]

sounds like a good deal bazza.

[petersemple]

Awww geez, now if only I can get a crane and a truck out the back of dad's place to the scribbly gum out there.

peter

[weisyboy]

i could always come and do them.

for a fee.

all be it small enough for my fuel to get there and a chainsaw chain.:2tsup:

[artme]

Great idea Carl. HOWEVER, you had best check WPH&S policies and also your insurance. Hate to see your generosity land you in deep doo-doo.:no::no:

[BobL]

i have decided to work on an open door policy anyone is welcome to come around and watch and have a play or give me a hand with my chainsaw mill.:U
;

Weisy, while I'm sympathetic with your idea about "sharing the milling love"!, I agree with artme about watching out for OHS and insurance especially since you have stated on a public website that you have an open door "policy". Most workshops and workplaces would be required by their insurance company to have a closed door policy. Members of the public would have to be invited individually into the workspace, there would be a requirement for clearly marked areas about where the public could stand/watch, and it is very unlikely that this would be anywhere near machines or tools especially if they were operating. BTW, the words "chainsaw" and "play" is not a good combination to promote and could also end in more than tears where complete strangers are concerned.

A number of people including complete strangers have asked to come and watch me milling or learn milling from me. If they are complete strangers I attempt to get to know them first, if I can't or they turnout to be a bit flakey I tell them "sorry the yard owner isn't allowing allow third persons on site". Since I use my big mill mainly on another persons property I have to get permission from the property owner anyway.

I certainly wouldn't let anyone I don't know very well use my mills and when I'm cutting no one gets within 2 m of the mill. I also do not just let anyone use or borrow my chainsaws unless they are experienced users.

[whitewood]

Last year I posted an offer to members to visit my property to see my bandsaw mill in operation. I also offerred to mill a few logs for them. No one came. I spoke to my insurer before hand and he was concerned. My public liability is only for me to mill my timber and not as a commercial sawmill. He felt that if something went wrong I would not be covered.

I would not allow anyone other than my self to use my machine. The theory of operation is simple but in reality it is very easy to overlook some part of the procedure and do some costly damage. I did, too often, in the early stages of learing to use it.

I second the motion to be very carefull about your offer. In fact it would probably be a smarter idea if you withdrew it, at least until you made more inquiries.

[weisyboy]

i have been been cotacted about thi by email by a few people not wanting to make a scine on the public forum.

i have spokn to my lawyer and he advises me that it is on private property and i am not running a comercial sawmill so there should not be any problem.

i am not going to withdraw my offer if australia is being reduced to the level of america where you cant do anything without fear of being sued then it is a sad sad day.

[BobL]

i have been been cotacted about thi by email by a few people not wanting to make a scine on the public forum.

i have spokn to my lawyer and he advises me that it is on private property and i am not running a comercial sawmill so there should not be any problem.

i am not going to withdraw my offer if australia is being reduced to the level of america where you cant do anything without fear of being sued then it is a sad sad day.

I agree that it's ludicrous that it's got to this point but it sounds like you need a new lawyer. If someone idiot turns up and while giving you a hand injures themselves or someone else you have lost your first point of defence in that they can say you invited them onto your property. It's the same as saying anyone can come to my place and drive my tractor. If they run over someone, you invited them, you allowed them to drive so you will at least in part be liable whether it's private property or not. legally it's one thing to say publicly that "interested persons can PM me if they wish to see the mill in action" and something else to say your offering an "open house"

Whether it's computers or your property a standard first line of security is block all and then filter.

[flynnsart]

We (hubby especially keen) to come and have a look, will contact you in the next week or two. Petes been nagging and dropping hints about one of these mills for a while now.

Donna

[weisyboy]

sure thing flynnsart will be great to have you along.

i was most disapinted when "chooks74" asked to have a look at someones mill and noone responded there is alot of people with mills in brisbane that were not willing to have anyone come and have a look. well they lost them selves the privelage of meating a verry nice bloke.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=64941

[RufflyRustic]

Carl, I congratulate you on your approach to following through on your offer. Keep at it, I'm sure you will work out how to do what you want to do, while ensuring safety requirements/legal obligations are met.

Keep thinking about the advice and suggestions people have raised here. They are worth their weight in gold.

Cheers
Wendy

[weisyboy]

thanks wendy

r there any lawyers out there in woodland that can give me some advice if so could you please email or pm me.

if i realy have to i may be able to have sompthing for people to sighn to rlive me of any liability.

i would like to avoid that if i can as its not realy good when someone turnes up to shove a paper in there face and saying sighn here.

[rsser]

AFAIK the key thing is duty of care.

If someone suffers loss or injury and can show that you have breached your duty of care to them then you are open to legal action and payment of reparations.

This applies to any voluntary association whether money is involved or not.

It means that you need to make your activity safe for any participating individual having regard to the circumstances.

So if you took in Joe Bloggs without checking that the activity was safe given their capacities in the conditions in which they are going to do something with you, and things went pear-shaped, you would be liable.

Getting them to sign a waiver is pointless as people cannot sign away their legal rights.

[rsser]

... and just to add to that:

The more risky the activity the greater will be the expectation of the courts that you have informed the participants of the risks involved and checked, and asked them to consider, their capacities.

You can protect yourself to some extent by advising the particpants in detail, in verbal and written form, what the risks are and what the skills needed to manage them are. This would include whatever a 'reasonable person' would consider appropriate given the circumstances and cover protective gear as well. For milling I'd guess these days that would mean eye and ear protective gear as well as chaps probably.

I went into all this in developing a risk management policy for the motorbike club on whose committee I sat.

A ride leader under this kind of thinking would have to advise participants of the risks at the start of a ride, check the state of their tyres and protective gear, and if he/she varied the advertised route and conditions in such a way as to increase the risk, would so render him/herself open to an action for breach of duty of care.

Sound daunting?

It is.

[Vernonv]

It's a real shame that such a nice gesture is fraught with such legal dangers.:(

Before you know it, you will need to talk to your solicitor before you host a BBQ, or make a friend a cup of tea or coffee.:rolleyes:

[Ianab]

It's real sad if you cant even have a boys day out with some power tools without talking to a lawyer first :-

A workplace has a different standard (at least here in NZ) because it falls under OSH rules. But in a private situation a much looser standard applies, which is basically 'reasonable care'. Unless you are obviously negligant.

Think about it, NO sport or hobby more dangerous than stamp collecting would be allowed otherwise.

Would you take a friend out fishing in your boat?
Would you let them ride your trail bike or jet ski?
Teach them wood turning or how to use a table saw?

All potentially dangerous things.

Now if you know your boat has a leak, or your trail bike has no brakes.. then thats not reasonable care.

I just worry that we (or our kids) will all end up wrapped in cotton wool and scared to go even outside. A bit like America really.

Break out the chainsaw and plenty of safety gear and go for it :2tsup:

Pity I'm on the other side of the sea or I'd be there, with some extra power tools :D

Cheers

Ian

[weisyboy]

get in ya kiak it aint that far Ian

[Sawdust Maker]

You could ask your lawyer whether it would be worth while for you to get your visitors to sign a waiver

Wish I could come up for a gander - would be a good learning experience!

[BobL]

Signed waivers aren't worth anything.

Duty of care is what it is about.
Setting up a simple barrier and a sign saying all viewing to be done behind barrier, is duty of care.
Letting an inexperienced person drive your CSM while you take a leak, is not.
Telling people there are risks and how to minimize these is
Not saying anything about the dangers is not.
Saying publicly anyone can play with your saws is not.
Saying publicly accepted OHS practices will be followed is.
Exhibiting or modeling poor OHS is not.

I hate it too but that's how it is - unfortunately.

[weisyboy]

i have decided that i will be egnoring any negative posts in theis thread as you have made your pint and there is no need to harp on about it.

[rsser]

:rolleyes:

Well Carl, I'm sorry if you thought my posts negative.

If I see a friend or acquaintance running the risk of making what may be a costly mistake this sense of responsibility seems to spring up inside me.

Your lawyer reckons there's no problem, you believe him or her, so it's all good, isn't it?

[weisyboy]

i did not find them negative i just see no need to continue on with this discousion.

i will not change my mind but you have opend my eyes as to wat we (as austrsalians) arebeing reduced to.

[nfld steve]

I wish I was a bit closer,lol.I also love your woods down there!
I was reading the thread and I guess it'ld be nice if you get a feel for the person useing your gear.There are opportunists out there,lol.
I like your idea ,and I understand your disdain for all the little rules and things.Here in Newfoundland we're regulated to death.
Next thing you know we'll need a permit to pick blueberries in the fall.I hate that,and my father hates it more,lol.
But saying that,there is a person or two,who when I know they're dropping by,I make sure I got my icey walkway salted,lol.And I don't want them in my workshop.
I guess a person has to get a feel for a person.
Anyway,best of luck with everything.
Steve

[SAISAY]

When I come down to Brissy for my eye operation I will stick a couple of logs in the caravan and come visit you.
Deal?
Wolffie

[weisyboy]

sounds good wolfy

[Chooks74]

Weisy, just use the perspex I allegedly gave you to surround yourself and the log in an enclosure, that way people can press up against the plastic and be in no immediate danger unless the drool from their envy of your setup on the barrier, casuses the to slide down and bump their heads:U Won't stop me from coming round again some time, I still have lots to learn off you about timber varieties, let alone the mill setup.

[Calm]

Hi Carl

Am leaving sunny Ballarat for Brisbane tomorrow night to spend a week with a mate at Brown Plain.

He is going to work Tuesday and Wednesday, I have the use of his car and thought i would take you up on the offer of your "open door policy".

So would Tuesday or Wednesday suit you better.

Do you have much of the "uncollected orders still for sale".

I have your address & mobile number so i can get in touch with you before i come out.

Cheers

[weisyboy]

sure thing mate

yer ther is still a bit more here and plenty of off cuts and dud blanks that i use myself.

and iv always got plenty of logs lying around.

wednesday will probly be best. give us a call on mundy and il make sure im here when you come out

[icetea20007]

Hi Carl,
Goodonya mate, good to see there is still aussies out there that is not surcumming to the American influence. This suing business is really terrible and I sure hope when my son grows up, he will still have the freedom to do simple and enjoyable things in life without the fear of getting into a financial nightmare. I'am no lawyer but if you type up a page of "do's and don't' or what guests is required to do when they are visiting your property, and emailing them this info before you accept them, would that not be your part in the duty of care? And I guess if you have a beer after and not before or during the visit in the mill, you should be pretty safe maybe?:U

Cheers

[Calm]

Well i made it to Carl's on Wednesday and spent about 3 hours being a pest.

What a talented young man. His knowledge of timber and machines had me in awe.

Had a demonstration of slabbing and the ease of cutting a 18 inch wide slab was impressive and showed his saw sharpening ability. I didn't take a camera so no photos but thanks Carl i had an enjoyable time.

I recomend a visit by anyone who has the chance, he is a most accomadating forumite.

Nearly forgot yep i brought home some timber (Camphor Laurel, can't wait to try it) and had too much to fit in my bags so i posted some home. 15.5 kg $34 from Brisbane to Ballarat

[weisyboy]

calm

what saw sharpening all i can remember is everything posible going rong with the saw.

$34:o i coulda sent 25kg for $26 max.

[artme]

You are spot on Calm. Carl is not afraid of hard work, nor afraid to give things a go.

[flynnsart]

Well we managed to make it to Carls as well the same day, so got to meet Calm as well.

Thank you so much Carl, we really enjoyed our visit and I found it very interesting, and think some time in the near future might end up with a slabber ourselves. I was amazed at the simplicity of the slab jig. I am so sorry I forgot to put some bikkies in your pocket before I left,:doh: will see to that next time we drop in and have a look at your wood. I would have liked to have looked at some of the things that you have made, perhaps next time? Peter says thanks too, he really enjoyed the visit.

The pic is of Calm, explaining something to my hubby Peter whilst Carl cuts a slab off a Swamp mahogany log.

Donna

[weisyboy]

thanks for the setter donna

the planner breezes over the spotty now with verry little noise (i had to wear earmuffs before or my ears would start ringing after 10 mins) and leaves a verry verry nice finish.

you are welcome anny time.

[STAR]

I met Carl at Neil's Gold coast Woodies BBque. For someone so young, he is an inspiration to the young people of Australia.

It is obvious he has a love for his art, and when we see this in a young person I feel it is our duty to help as much as we can.

Thank you Carl. We all appreciate your enthusiasm.

[funkychicken]

You guys do know that he has an alaskan mill not a bandmill or lucas or canadian or anything..


Oh and I'll chuck in my "Carl's a great guy" :D

[BobL]

It's terrific to hear that Carl has all this enthusiasm and passion - qualities that seem in short supply these days. Now let's see if we can get him to look after himself so that we can keep him around for long enough for us all to benefit from this.

[Chooks74]

I agree BOBL, I talked to him extensively on the trip to Maleny and ended up imploring him to wear all his rpotective gear and be careful around the saws... Stay in one piece Weisy:wink:

[weisyboy]

now your starting to sound like an old woman.

i may have found a second hand lucas to buy. (insert finers crosed smiley here)

[Chooks74]

now your starting to sound like an old woman.

i may have found a second hand lucas to buy. (insert finers crosed smiley here)

Lucky bugger, I was just a month late on one, you have to be quick.

i will let the "old Woman" comment slide, just don't make tell on you!

[Sigidi]

i may have found a second hand lucas to buy. (insert finers crosed smiley here)

Hope I helped out a bit with the the Lucas you found. Probably talked your ear off on other unrelated junk, but if there is anything you want to know about her or cutting with her when you get her, drop me a line. They are pretty easy but some short cuts make a difference and take a while to learn.

post us pics when you get her:D

[weisyboy]

good to talk to you mate and the frase "underwatter" comes to mind.