Assessment need on floating platform in St Helens. Anyone with ideas?

[frog's wife]

Here's one kinda odd.

We're looking at buying a floating restaurant in St Helens Tasmania. Its not technically a boat as there is now no motor or method of steering, however for all intents and purposes, it is a boat, it floats and has been floating for the last 13 years (apparently). Now to buy the thing we need an idea of its condition under the waterline.

Slipping is difficult but not impossible at a nearby slip. Anyone know what the hell we're looking for? Recommend a surveyor or boat assessor in the area?


Thanks in advance,


Sonja

[bitingmidge]

Sonja,

You do need a qualified Marine Surveyor, and there should be a number of them around in St Helens and Hobart.

It would be worth knowing what material the hull is made of, as some surveyors specialise. There's no point in getting a bloke that knows all there is to know about old timber trawlers if the hull is made of steel on a commercial barge platform!

On another note, we travelled from Davenport to StHelens looking for a feed a few years ago, on New Years' day.

We walked out to "your" restaurant, to be greeted by a chalkboard which said (and this is verbatum)
"We weighed up the financial gain from opening tonight against the stress it would cause, and though
NOOOOOooooooooo."

So we ate in the pub.

Hopefully you'll be open next time we visit!

Cheers,

P
:D

[manoftalent]

go and see a repairer ..I think there is a few down mordialloc way ...maybe talking to them would give you a better perspective, and if it were me I would ask him to fly out and have a look first hand ...expences paid of course ....it may cost you a $1000.....(meals, airfare, wages..etc)....but its way better than buying a dud.....and losing everything...and probably cheaper than hiring a marine engineer...

[frog's wife]

Hmmm, Good thought MOT. If Mahommed wont go to the mountain, we can always take the mountain to Mahommed (or some such proverby saying). You're right about cost. Better it costs a bit now than a whole lot later. Its such a crappy idea though paying for stuff if the boat and business isnt ours yet!


Oh my lord bitingmidge.....perhaps you can see why its up for sale! I promise you the best seafood dinner I can produce for your next trip down! If you see a short cook with a big long ponytail that's me. Make sure you let me know.

Ya the hull is steel with some poly pontoons under it. We're getting mixed reports on the condition and its getting a little confusing. However the only people giving us "bad" reports are those that have an ulterior motive.
there's one other person that wants to buy it but cant afford it for another 6 months and was hoping that it would still be for sale then (she told me) and the other was the bloke from the council that obviously had a personal vendetta against the original builder and current owner. Sheesh.

Its going to be a major event getting it slipped methinks as I believe it's too wide for all but possibly one slipway in St Helens.


Is a marine surveyor the same as a marine engineer?


Sonja

[bitingmidge]

Sonja,

A marine surveyor is a person who is qualified to do the work, and many engineers will be surveyors if that makes sense.

Being steel, and poly, it'll need particular expertise I would have thought. Why not ask the relevant government department in Tassy for a list of Surveyors?

Is this thing registered as a ship? If so, it will need to be "in survey" to carry passengers! Bizarre though that may be, it'd be worth checking out.

Cheers,

P (Looking forward to visiting Tassie now!)

[Ashore]

Is a marine surveyor the same as a marine engineer?
Sonja
Yes and no Marine Engineers often become Marine surveyors as they have most of the necessary training and qualifications
You could try AMSA the australian maritime safety authority ( they will have an office in Hobart or Launceston and definately in Melbourne) to find out what are the necessary survey requierments to operate as a restaurant weather it comes under their control or the Tas Government and they could porberly steer you to the qualified surveyors available , Quite often they are happy with an underwater video , depending on how clear the water is , but whatever you do check with the relivant authority as to what you need to operate , the last thing you need is to find out the boat requires some special survey before you can operate :rolleyes:

[manoftalent]

lets just say for safety sake ...you buy the boat ....do you have the relivant qualifications ?....in victoria, you Must have a "food handlers cert" to serve a hotdog at a stall..let alone cut a sandwich in a milkbar ...I am not sure 100%...but I think the same applies to tassie as well....in the long run you will need it to obtain a license to run the business as a food outlet..

[frog's wife]

The premises is already a registered food service business. We're looking at buying the existing business so it's already trading with the relevant permits etc. I'm qualified, just not sure about the quality of the structure under the water.

Technically, as it is permenantly moored and has had both motor and steering mechanisms removed completely, it is no longer classed as a boat so doesnt require "survey" as most marine vessels do. That's where it becomes a little "grey". As it is not on land its not a "building" according to the council and its not a boat either, so it's basically a floating platform.

It still needs anti-fouling, just for cleanliness and ability to assess the hull, man there's some monster oysters growing on it! But main concern is the integrity of the old steel pontoons underneath, which as the guys here are suggesting will need a marine engineer or surveyor, probably wont matter which as we dont have to satisfy any "authority" just ourselves as to the lifespan and condition of the structure before we sign on the dotted line.


Sonja

[Ashore]

PM sent hope it helps
Rgds

[dazzler]

Your making me feel home sick :( . Love st helens :) and the pancake joint up the hill :D

[soundman]

Being in a legeslative vacume can be both a good and bad thing.....Is the whole concept just too hard to deal with.

At least one public servant thinks so...... how long will his vendetta last?

Id be more concerned at where the thing legaly stands that the condition of the hull.

Have you spoken to the local politicians.

cheers

[frog's wife]

Soundman,

Are you psychic?

How do you know there's one council man with a vendetta?

I'm serious! He's absolutely dead against the original builder, the previous owners and cant wait for the thing to sink. In fact was proud of the fact that he'd told all prospective buyers that it was going to sink within 18 months (now HE's a marine engineer?) and that the council only gave a mooring lease to the original people to "make them go away" (do councils ever do that?) and that all prospective buyers had also gone away and never come back! What the?

How did you know that?


Sonja

[frog's wife]

Dazzler,

I'll have to post some pics. There's some renos to do on the boat (oh boy is there what?) And they'd make a good thread here.


Sonja

[woodbe]

Soundman,

Are you psychic?

How do you know there's one council man with a vendetta?
[..]

How did you know that?


Sonja

Um.. because you told us in post #4?


the other was the bloke from the council that obviously had a personal vendetta against the original builder and current owner.

Looking forward to seeing some photos!

woodbe.

[frog's wife]

oh yeah,

Please excuse my blonde moment.



(but I look so pretty!)



Sonja

[manoftalent]

Sonja ....with all this "drama" surrounding your venture, it may pay to do your homework ......if it were me, first couple of calls would be to ..dept of health in that area .....find out if there are any outstanding/past/present issues in regards to operational requirements of said vessel.....if a councilperson has a bee in their bonnet, this may come back to haunt you ....you know how low they can get .....

licensing dept : find out any problems in obtaining the neccesary paperwork ....

who owns the waterway that the vessel sits on?....if its government ...this could be problematic later

and lastly ... talk to someone legally, and explore your options should any harrasment take place .....

I know this sounds a bit too much, but your there and I am not (lucky for them, I would slap a restraining order on his butt so fast he would get dizzy)....weigh up the pro's and con's and look at it with both eyes open
best of luck :2tsup:

[frog's wife]

MOT,

Good advice. I think I'm being persecuted for sins of past owners.
Have checked and there havent been or isnt any current issues in regards to Health department.

Unfortunately the General Manager of the council is the one that seems to have the bee in his bonnet. Not really anyone else above him to go to. As you say a legal opinion may be the next option.

The council is the one that owns the mooring. Absolute prime, pivotal to the success of the business location. Therein lies the rub. The old contract of lease has options for renewal and it was only when I contacted the council to confirm the number of renewals yet to be optioned that he threw a spanner in the works and said that even though it says in the contract "if the following conditions are met, the contract will be deemed as renewed...." conditions are all simple bar one paragraph a little earlier that states a new planning permit should be obtained. It doesnt say when or for what purpose or even exactly when that new planning permit is required but this guy is stuck on the sentance and is hinging his argument for the breaking of the contract on the fact that he is the planning guy as well as the GM and as far as HE is concerned, HE needs to do some serious and long term "investigations". Practically spelling out that he's going to drag it out so long that the original contract will have expired without a submission for renewal and the options will become void.

:no:

Like you said, legal advice is probably the next step.


Sonja

[woodbe]

Under those circumstances, I think I'd have my running shoes ready. The joint would have to have great potential and a cheap entry price to be of interest, I'd have thought. Do you really want to buy into these sort of problems?

Of course, you being the buyer of this 'going concern' can make a signed, sealed and delivered planning permit a condition of settlement... That could drag on for a long time and be quite costly.

woodbe.

[Nifty1]

Don't forget that you may need to antifoul the thing regularly, and that this will almost certainly require slipping anyway. Often when people buy boats they will agree beforehand to pay the slipping and inspection costs if they decide to buy - the seller pays if there are problems found that the buyers are not prepared to fix (talking about the underwater bits here). You will probably find your marine surveyor has a standard agreement along these lines. If you decide to buy, then it may be worth antifouling while it's out. Most boats need antifouling about every year, depending on water temperature and the amount of activity in the water. For a barge that isn't to be moved, that could be a lot less often.

It sounds like the sort of project to approach with a bit of research and caution, but there is no doubting the appeal of a floating seafood restaurant. Will it be open by the time of the next Hobart wooden boat show, Feb09?

[manoftalent]

Sonja, if you ring the "Law institute of australia ", they will offer some free advice andpoint you in the right direction of someone capable in this field ..I think you have good grounds legally simply because this guy has two positions and he is bias in his judgements .....and using his position with abuse ..( probably has another motive behind it)...talk to legal ppl and get advice ..

[soundman]

yep this is a weirdo project, it doesn not fall easily into a conventional outlook.
Public servents do not like a situation where there may be limits on their power to controll such a project.

there could be issues about town planning, because techniclay the "thing" isnt a structure and does not actualy lie within the town.....if it is pernamently floating it will be below the high water mark assuming the area is tidal it will then fall under the State marine regulator, so the coulcil's only means of control is its power over a councill regulated morring........Oh the councill wont like that...... particularly if the previous owner has used that situation to get around some council regulation or procedure.

I've seen deals like this come and go.

as far as the value of the "thing" and the business is concerned..... if it does not have the blessing of the local authorities the value and it future prospects plumet.
If it does not get " devine blessing" you are buying a barge with a big kitchen, that is looking for somewhere to park.

I would be having a cup of coffee and a chat with the bloke in question and ask him what the problem is and if the whole thing can be done in a manner that "the council" will be happy with.
now there will be one thing on his mind, making the " previous bastard pay" for the grief this bloke has "obviously suffered".
Letting him know that you will be considering, the inconvienience as influencing the purchas price ( hell yeh) may make him happy.

Me.... hell , my sneekers would be going .L R L R L R L R as fact as my feet could carry them in the oposite direction.

cheers

[Calm]

Without being judgemental and after reading the whole thread it seems to me that you have fallen in love with this "prospective business".

It appears you are determined to convince yourself around these problems that you have identified. Many of the contributors have indicated their choice would be hightail it out of there.

As the financial advisors always say

IF IT SEEMS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT PROBABLY IS.

Sorry if i seem blunt but i think you should really reread the whole thread with a clear mind and try to get a new perspective on the situation you are about to sign up for.

The golden rule is those who fail to plan ,plan to fail. I can smell disaster with this and think you would be wise to be very careful before you sign anything.

Sorry for the negative post but it is my opinion.

[ian]

Sonja

Have you talked to an insurance agent yet?
when you do I'm fairly certain you will find that you are looking at a boat (it's on the water, it floats) and will need some form of marine insurance.

In the long run it will probably pay to use a marine surveyor recommended by your insurer
Oh, and get ready for some really arcane language, I understand that the wording in marine policies hasn't changed much in the last 400 years.


ian

[soundman]

( In the voice of Henry Crun)

"Insurance..... oooh...... yes yes....... you have to have insurance....st st st.:no:.. then theres the rope...... you cant get the rope you know...:no:... oooo and dont for get the wood... you cant get that either...:no:.. you cant get the wood you know."

Seriously
when you are looking for insurance go in person and ask to speak directly to the underwriter, so you can see the look on their face and watch their eyes roll back in their head....:sad3:.:stars:.. after a little while they will come arround, shuffle some papers or look at some tables on the computer...... then are likley to come out with something like...:shakehead:.." I don't think we cover that sort of risk"... or..."I don't think that fits with in our protfolio of coverage"......or..." our underwriting guidlines are not consistent with that combination of risks"

Then sure as eggs there will be one ...... a look of both shock, surprise and smugness will come over their face & they'll say........" OH here it is :fineprint:"floating restaurant", right under "fire twirler" and "fish squirting factory" and in the risk catagory as " manufacturer of exploding foot powder"".

Now you should sit down and ask for a glass of water..... you;ll need it when you hear the figure.:erm_smile:

cheers

[frog's wife]

Lol, guys! Some great information delivered with terrific wit and smarts.

Let me see if can address some of the points raised.....

The restaurant has been running quite successfully, almost despite itself for the last 6 years. Current owner has taken his hands off the wheel a little after his wife left. Too much for just one person. I'm pretty confident about the business just the snag of the mooring lease and hull condition are left to iron out.


Definately didnt know about the "standard" we pay/owner pays for repairs once its out of the water. Top info Nifty1. We spoke to the owner yesterday and he's arranging slipping and we already spoke about getting it antifouled so that's on the list with the inspection.

Soundman, you hit the nail on the head with the obtuseness of the situation and the apparent dislike of council of having a structure they have little control over. As much as I tried to assure the council fellow that sins of past owners were not my MO and that we were presenting him with an opportunity to "straighten" this thing out once and for all for the good of all future parties, he just couldnt get his mind away from the past. Ive put all my intentions with the restaurant in writing in my request for action from the council and will probably try for support from a very good chamber of commerce within the town.

Calm, don't worry, we wont be signing anything till we have this locked up tighter than a fish's proverbial. I'm not in the habit of parting with my hard earned too easily. (did someone say fish's proverbial?) As I said, it's already a flourishing business, current owner leaving coz his wife left and he wants to return to Victoria but he's more than happy to trade out any settlement period and even offered to lease back from us if we needed longer to get ourselves organised. The business is making money and I think he's gonna miss that! No doubt about that. It has miles of potential to make more, have done all my costings, market research and am coming from a similar successful business (not a boat) in country victoria.

Ian, havent yet spoken to the insurance guy but checked over the last two policies from the current owner. After the motor and steering mechanisms were removed it became a "marine hull commercial policy" So not technically a boat, just a hull was how the insurers viewed it.

Soundman (alias Henry Crun?), got a family member in the insurance business -(dont hold that against me) and previous policies were actually quite reasonable. I too thought that it would be a policy that insurers would go to town on but I was surprised to see that it wasnt too bad but its on my list to do while these council negotiations are going on.

Thanks guys for all your input. Very valuable good food for thought here.

Oh and Nifty1, if we do manage to negotiate our way into a solid contract and the hull is sound, you can bet your dorsal fin the thing will be open in Feb 09! If you're looking for a good serve of blue eye trevalla, caught the day before just off the coast, come and see me.


Sonja

[dazzler]

If you're looking for a good serve of blue eye trevalla


Even talks like a south islander :p

[Nifty1]

We'll be there - promise! You sound like you have a good handle on the project, so good luck with it all.

[harry40]

sonja
hi i am aware of the paddle wheel restaurant and apart for the fact that it has had the ability to take on water all rumors that you ave heard about the original builder are probably founded , however it would pay to have a talk to mr Russell montgomery from st helens as i feel that he should be able to shed some true facts on the barge. however i am certain that the restaurant was never designed to float out in the bay and for steering it probably should have wheels as to cruise along the bottom. however i have visited the paddle wheel a few times and always enjoyed the evening however it doesn't take to much to see it needs a lot of qualified carpentry work to be done
sorry one more thing regardless on what yo have been told it all started from floating pontoons and was built from there and at no time was there any ability for it to be powered out into the blue , as i was not around st helens when it was built this is only founded on common belief throughout the town
cheers hope all goes well and for it going to sink in the near future your conciliar member is physic now to he he he

[frog's wife]

Harry,

There's definately a lot of stories going around about the history of the boat.

Apparently the builder planned to take tours round Georges Bay with it but on its maiden voyage it floundered round and round in a circle like a one legged duck totally unsteerable. from there it was bolted to the dock and there she has remained. The inclusion of a kitchen and lack of caps on a pontoon caused a rather nasty list that has been 'fixed' with 9x1100kg lift poly pontoons.

Absolutely it needs some carpentry, electrical and plumbing work but my dearest Frog is just the man for the job. With a tidy up she'll look a million bucks (ok maybe not quite a million but nice in the dark with the fairy lights on)

I guess what is the most important thing is what the status of the thing is now and how long it's going to last. (the real marine engineer's opinion, not the psychic councilman's)

Thanks Harry, if I ever run into Russell Montgomery (who is he anyway?) I shall make sure I get the history. Seems too many people are putting their own personal opinion of the builder into the story and I'm not getting too many facts. It'd be nice to just get the nuts and guts of it.

[harry40]

sonja
Russell was the building inspector with the st helens council however due to a better offer he has started a independent surveying business in pendrige place st helens and he is a straight shooter and i feel assured that he might assist you with advice on some issues you might have the the thing that knows all at the council
cheers and good luck and i will look forward to trying your cooking out at some stage mayby if you go down that path

[Boatmik]

Maybe a cup of coffee with the councilman has a chance of smoothing things over. It might be a lot of result for $6 (or $15 if you buy something to eat too).

There might be no good result ... but you never know ... particularly if you get the chance to sooth the guy's emotions a bit. Not in any nefarious way - but simply by recognising that he probably has had a bit of a hard time of it too.

Clear the emotions that have built up because he has had the feeling that no-one has listened and you get a chance to find out what the real sticking point is.

Usually in human relations it is something quite small relative to the emotional build-up that has occured over time.

Deal with the build up by listening and reflecting back and the emotion usually evaporates.
"that is not an easy situation, what happened next ..." "that makes life difficult, how ..."

It might not work at all, but is worth the chance.

Michael

[Theodor]

Maybe a cup of coffee with the councilman has a chance of smoothing things over. It might be a lot of result for $6 (or $15 if you buy something to eat too).

There might be no good result ... but you never know ...


Or you might shortly find yourself in front of an Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) like the whole of the current Wollongong City Council!! :U

[Boatmik]

Or you might shortly find yourself in front of an Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) like the whole of the current Wollongong City Council!! :U

She is blonde, but by no means silly!!!!

:-)

MIK

[frog's wife]

Boatmik,

You're absolutely right and that's the tack I'm taking (ooh look boat talk). In person I found it truly difficult do as he simply wasnt listening, just kept talking over the top of me, wandering in his subjects, generally waffling. So we let him waffle for 45 minutes but then when it was my turn to assure him that we WERENT the past owners or builders and were intent on running a fully compliant business that would be a successful and community focussed credit to the waterfront......nothing. nada. Didnt even hear it.

So I've put it in writing. Even suggested that this was his opportunity to create/solve something for the town where all before him had failed, i.e. find reliable, responsible new owners, sort out unclear contracts, lay the foundations for a vibrant and much vaunted marina area.

He's now gone over the 7 days to reply as per the council charter so I'll have to ring him which I would have preferred not to as it would have been better for him to act on his own rather than feel pressured by us. Basically the charter states he must reply within 7 days however he can then tell us that 'lengthy investigations must be undertaken' and he can drag it out as long as he likes. sigh.

We'll get there.

Harry, I've heard about this Russell guy. Will have a go at chasing him down and having a chat.


Sonja