Beach boat

[Daddles]

My recent mumblings about boat plans and probable useage led me to conclude that if I want any regular use out of a boat, I'm going to have to accept that sailing off the beaches here in Adelaide will have to be part of the mix.

So me hearties, what characteristics am I looking for in a beach boat?
What designs should I be looking at?

My personal use?
I'm a muggins sailor so it needs to be able to teach me so that I learn not to be a muggins sailor.
Must be a good rower - I like rowing. Maybe you don't have to row out to hoist the sails, maybe you do, in either case, she'll be used elsewhere and I like to row.
Single handed ie, I rock up in me car with me boat on behind, the first mate is a small scruffie dog and everything from launching, sailing through to retrieving is done by my good self.
Beach dolly rather than immerse my trailer (makes the trailer more versatile too).
But it would be nice to be able to take someone with me.

Any thoughts?

Richard

[Daddles]

And seeing I'm me, I'll start by having a go at answering this myself.

An obvious starting place is Mik's GIS. It has everything I need except the style - I really am stubborn about wanting a planked boat, much like Sixpence (see avatar).

Lug sail yawl or single lug or able to do both?

I have this weird love affair with Iain O's double enders. Does the pointy bum really help in the surf? Especially for someone handling the boat himself? Which one?

It occurs to me that I may already have the ideal boat half built in the shed - Sixpence. David Payne's Yellowtail

http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=32147&d=1160544814

but with a Mik designed yawl rig

http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=24224&d=1149047681

She's only a 14 footer but she does strike me as being a bit heavy to manhandle on and off the beach on my own. As far as a sailing boat goes though, she should be ideal here in Adelaide.

Maybe a lighter, lither stablemate?

Maybe I should stop dithering and finish her?

Richard

[soundman]

If your are going in off the beach, I'd be looking at some form of lightweight design, yeh even roofrackable.

I'd keep your planked hull for the ocasional serious sail, and have a lightweight you can easily toss in.

cheers

[Daddles]

Oh go on Mik, convince me I need a GIS :-

Richard

[fxst]

daddles I agree with Soundy the sixpence is good but maybe a bit heavy for an off the beach boat. To get what you want/need forget planked unless maybe a plywood clinker. The GIS maybe just the thing for you. :2tsup: I have a dory I built and while it rows like a dream and sails nice too its a heavy bugger and I don't use it as much as I should because of that as most of my boating is single handed. Thats the main reason the Hartley 21 is unused and getting more like a selling venture. :~ Ian O has some nice lightweights and I love the trad double enders and after the kayak that maybe an option :D Its a hard decision though and it will take you a while to sort out I reckon.
Pete

[Boatmik]

Howdy Daddles,

Build an Oughtred - go on. Plans are excellent, boats sail like the wind.

Some of his rowboat double enders have sailplans but also have fewer panels 4 per side) than his full clinker jobbies. I think are few are specified in 9mm - do the bottoms in 9 and the rest in 6 and you will get something handleable on the beach too. Or all 6 if he lets you.

Tirrik looks like the best choice. Do it simply! Use the trad rig to keep the cost and rigging time (and the need for crew) under control.

There is no choice in this Daddles :-) It is the boat that makes the best sense.

MIK
You know enough about the Goat already - I don't need to argue the case. If you like it you will build it.


Good Choice - go for it.

[PhilW]

Howdy Daddles,


Build an Oughtred - go on. Plans are excellent, boats sail like the wind.

Greetings young Mik

Now tell me please. What is a Oughtred? I thought that it may be the outer end of the local football stadium or perhaps a boat on the outer limits. Almost spooky. :oo: Cheers and I trust that you are keeping well.

Daddles

You boat looks awesoome......

Phil

[Boatmik]

Howdy Phil,

Is that a serious question about Oughtred - I can't quite figure if you are teasing me or not!

Michael Storer

[Daddles]

What is a Oughtred?

Is he allowed to use language like that in here? :oo:

Iain Oughtred. A funny little Scottish chap who probably didn't 'invent' the plywood, clinker method of building boats but who certainly took the method to it's current pinnacle and who seems to be one of the few who really understands it. His designs are based on traditional concepts but the boats are designed with consideration for the lightness and strength that this system can give. If it was designed by Iain Oughtred, it works very well and his plans are excellent.

Now you want his website don't you. Well bad luck, he doesn't have one, nor does he have an email address.

This is the best photo I could find of a Tirrik - pity the owner chose such an awful rig.

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/images/tirrik/tirrik_rigged.jpg

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/images/tirrik/interior_aft.jpg

Richard

[Daddles]

Your GIS would be quite a bit lighter wouldn't it Mik? If I remember rightly, in talking to you and Midge, the GIS can be dragged around on the sand quite easily.

Richard

[Tor]

Oughtred plans can be obtained through the Classic Marine (http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatsearch.asp)website.

Thanks for the inspiration... the Acorn skiff 15 looks intriguing given your requirements



Tor

[b.o.a.t.]

This is the best photo I could find of a Tirrik - pity the owner chose such an awful rig.

Richard

Oh....oh....oh...!!! That is gorgeous ! (apart from the sail plan)

Cross Shearwater off list.
Next-boat-but-one... Houdini / GIS / Tirrik ... decisions, decisions.

AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy Daddles,

The reason I am not strongly suggesting the GIS is even though it is a near 16 footer that is lighter than most racing dinghies 2 feet shorter - it is a big lift for a lone person and I know you are by yourself most of the time. A SMALLER boat would be nice.

One day I must get round to a 12 foot version - but one day...

That would be perfect for one bod to lug around.

MIK

[Daddles]

Howdy Daddles,

The reason I am not strongly suggesting the GIS is even though it is a near 16 footer that is lighter than most racing dinghies 2 feet shorter - it is a big lift for a lone person and I know you are by yourself most of the time. A SMALLER boat would be nice.

One day I must get round to a 12 foot version - but one day...

That would be perfect for one bod to lug around.

MIK

Ah ha. Thanks for that. I was pondering this point. I was chatting to a mate tonight (Mike) and he raised that very question. It also scratches most of the Oughtred designs too as I'd imagine they'd be a little heavier than the GIS.

Mike did advise that if I can get some working room in Redback, that's probably still my best option considering I already have her. He's seen her sailing and has quite a bit of experience sailing boats.

Let's face it, I'm a typical mug beginner who wants the 'right machine' to do the job and who keeps making the typical mug beginner's mistake of forgetting that once a machine that'll do the job (in this case a boat) is available, the next step is always 'lots of experience'.

It would be nice to have to give Redback a good workout to see how good she really is. Please.

Sixpence will definitely need at least a beach dolly but will maybe even need to be trailer lauched. As you may remember Mik, I was going to build her with the coach house. This decision was based on my having a coach house already built (by other bods from the TAFE course so I have no emotional attachment to the thing) and the age of my daughter who, at that time, was young enough to really need some protection. However, she's 7 now, will probably be 8 by the time Sixpence hits the water and arguably doesn't need the minimal protection of that coach house. The coach house will also add quite a bit of weight to the boat and will prevent easy access to the mast now that your yawl rig has moved the mast to the fore deck. The plans show an open boat version.

I'm now seriously considering building the open version. The advantages will be less weight (easier to man handle on the beach), less building because although the basic coach house has been built it needs a loooot of finishing - it can be returned to TAFE to be passed onto someone else too, it's not going to go to waste.

The big advantage of the open boat will be easy access to the mast for raising and lowering the sail on the water - I know this can be done remotely but if I don't have to, I think the simple option is better. The downside is less weather protection but the coach house never offered much anyway (even now my little girl has to curl up to get under it - makes a great cubby house in the shed).

So I'm going to stop annoying you about designs (ha - if you believe that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you) and try to get some time in Redback. Provided I'm not stupid with the weather, I should be able to sail her off the local beach and there's always Westlakes.

Am I making more sense at last? I hope so, because it's starting to sound more like what you've been telling me all along. I do listen, it's just hard to get it to gel inside sometimes.

Richard

[Aberdeen]

Hey Daddles are you dabbling in wooden boat again... hope so.....

[Daddles]

Hey Daddles are you dabbling in wooden boat again... hope so.....

Yeah mate. I haven't been ignoring you, just finding wednesdays amazingly difficult to control. How's the build going?

Richard

[Aberdeen]

Hey Daddles me old mate, if you are worried about not enough wind in your sails then I'll give ya a tow if ya ain't feeling up to row'n !

Once I get the next round of TRITON machinery it's back to building the good old, tried and tested, Hartley VIXEN..... no wind needed for that one. But my only question is: 'Is 18 foot really enough for any man?'

Aberdeen.......

<I'm a muggins sailor so it needs to be able to teach me so that I learn not to be a muggins sailor.
Must be a good rower - I like rowing. Maybe you don't have to row out to hoist the sails, maybe you do, in either case, she'll be used elsewhere and I like to row.
Single handed ie, I rock up in me car with me boat on behind, the first mate is a small scruffie dog and everything from launching, sailing through to retrieving is done by my good self. >

[STEPHEN MILLER]

Daddles me hearty theres plenty of boat ramps around Adealide to lauch that yellowtail off , you dont need to stuggle beach lauching and maybe you will finally get it finished

[Aberdeen]

Daddles
For my two bobs worth (whatever that is today) you've gotta great little girl down the shed.... go on, get down there and finish her off !!!!

You are so close, she looks so great, need I say a lot better looking than that old 'clinker' out the front......

I've been waiting years to see that boat finished, would like to see her afloat before I pass over to the other side..... and I don't mean cross over to plastic boats.... :roll:
Aberdeen

[kenjamin]

Just for the record, Iain Oughtred is an Aussie like Michael Storer. He just happens to live on the Isle of Sky, Scotland. Nice chap he is – let me experiment with a birdwing mast on one of his Caledonia Yawls.

http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?t=609&sid=dac96249f9e2227bc29e2c20106192ae

[dognest]

It occurs to me that I may already have the ideal boat half built in the shed - Sixpence. David Payne's Yellowtail


I see a Yellowtail (bare hull only) has just been listed for sale down South of Adelaide. "Owner pursuing other interests."
Timber Sailing Skiff - ebay.com.au (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Timber-Sailing-Skiff_W0QQitemZ320232755924QQihZ011QQcategoryZ158337QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Surely this is just a coincidence? :)

[Boatmik]

<I'm a muggins sailor so it needs to be able to teach me so that I learn not to be a muggins sailor.
Must be a good rower - I like rowing. Maybe you don't have to row out to hoist the sails, maybe you do, in either case... >

Only if there is restricted water that prevents you from sailing off the beach. For example you can sail off the front lawn at Biting Midge's place and there is a good area of river to sail in, however if you want to go out on the lake or the sea you need to go under a low bridge.

In that case we don't raise the mast, but row out (it is about a kilometre so takes about 15 minutes plus or minus tide). Immediately after the bridge there is a little beach - we go in there and raise the mast and go sailing.

With small boats raising and lowering sails is much more convenient from the beach, though reefing and other actions, like going through a lock, or coming into a crowded anchorage or having to land downwind onto a dodgy shore in a blow all might require striking or raising sail while afloat.

No great problem with that either - but it is easier on shore.

MIK

[Boatmik]

I think he is originally from the UK but spent most of his childhood here and started building woodenboats here too. As well as racing up to National Championship level in Gwen 12s.

There were a series of articles written by him on how to build a Moth in Australian Sailing magazine around 1975. He did everything in wood - wings (for sitting out on), mast etc.

I do remember that as he was explaining the design of the hull he strayed away from the conventional way at the time a little and he "thought the boat would go faster backwards than forwards" so he corrected that back to something more conventional.

I am not really sure but I think he had narrowed the stern which was the biggest handling improvement of the scow moths. Narrowing the stern reduces nosediving - whereas the methods for dealing with the problem had always dealt with the front end of the boat.

Amazing conceptual shift that has influenced lots of OZ boats, but the rest of the world doesn't really know yet.

Means the boats can be pushed a lot harder without the nose dropping in.

To think that Oughtred may have thought it up (or my recollection could be shakey)

But everyone thinking about fast keelboats is doing these wide sterns (except for some of the canting keelers which can have more moderate sterns and still enough righting moment) which are difficult to handle requireing a high level of skill.

But the design thinking is moving into production boats. Ever wider sterns and bigger sail areas. Faster, but more piggy as conditions get worse.

MIK

[Daddles]

I see a Yellowtail (bare hull only) has just been listed for sale down South of Adelaide. "Owner pursuing other interests."
Timber Sailing Skiff - ebay.com.au (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Timber-Sailing-Skiff_W0QQitemZ320232755924QQihZ011QQcategoryZ158337QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Surely this is just a coincidence? :)

He wants four grand for the thing. The man's nuts :oo:
(and no, it's not me)

Richard

[Aberdeen]

Daddles & Co.
If you look deeper into his ebay site he is also selling a David Payne designed Restricted 21 class racing yacht, only wants $8k for that one....

http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZeasytiger.09

I think that also is just the hull.......

[RossL]

A friend of mine has been nagging me to produce a full set of drawings for a 19' 6" x 4' version of a Double-paddle Canoe I drew for my wife. The canoe is 11' x 27", and has substantial rocker, and a subtle amount of reverse curve in the sections, resulting in a similar reverse in the profile of the stem and sternpost.

This is a dream boat, as I haven't got time to devote to the detailed drawings required at this stage, but the idea of a slim double-ender with a very simple rig (I already have the options in mind) and a half-decked layout is really appealing.

As drawn in the attached pdf, Whispering Rose displaces 450kg to the LWL, but could easily carry more as she can settle aft (and forrard) with little penalty to performance, due primarily to the shape aft.

Ross Lillistone
www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au (http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au)

[Daddles]

She's gorgeous Ross :D

Richard

[RossL]

Thanks for the kind words, Richard.

I'm not trying to push my design here, as it hasn't progressed beyond the hull-modelling stage yet, and given my current workload, it will be a fair while before more is done.

The reason I showed the lines drawing is that for many years I've been fascinated by long, lean double-enders. I am realistic enough to accept that I'll never be able to afford a Rozinante, but maybe there can be something of the same spirit gained through a light beach boat of similar proportions (but without the deep keel - although the International 110 and Joel White's Fox Island Sloop lie waiting in my imagination like Sirens).

The closest I've got to experiencing the dream is with my Iain Oughtred MacGregor sailing canoe. The window between 'not-enough-wind' and 'too-much-wind' is only about five knots wide, but in the correct conditions (say 10 to 12knots) she is a superb thing to take out into lumpy water.

Regarding your beach boat requirements, all I can say is, 'If in doubt, go smaller', and 'Choose a boat with beautiful proportions'. A beautiful boat will give pleasure independent of her size, and beauty will encourage use. At the Great Tinaroo Raid there were three clinker double-paddle canoes - all were nicely made, but one had a certain 'something' in her lines which took a person's breath away. In my eyes, the other two just faded out of view, even though they were good boats.

I guess that you have read L.Francis Herreshoff's chapter on Beachcruisers in The Compleat (sic) Cruiser? I love his 13ft imaginary boat, and I reckon that you could get a lifetime of use out of such a thing.

Cheers,

Ross Lillistone

[Wild Dingo]

Richard... listen young sprog get yer backside trackside to the friggin shed and get the damned boat FINISHED!!! :2tsup: ...strewth mate even Ive been hanging out for centuries for you to bloody launch the thing!! :~

Stop droolin over other designs me hearty an get to with gusto!!

Personally I still DROOL badly over anything Oughtred... and sure as heck miss my plans of Grey Seal those plans would have to have been the clearest easiest read set I bought over the years... sigh...

a boat a boat a kingdom for a... oooh right shes taking the kingdom okay then a car for... mmm okay nix that... a bottle of grand mariner I was savin for a rainy day for a boat!! YEAH THATS IT!! :2tsup:

ah well boats are a fine dream eh wot :;

Shane