Nick's Eureka 155 [Archive]

nickpullen

26th March 2008, 03:40 PM

Hi everyone.

Firstly, a big thanks to Michael Storer for creating this beautiful design and then to all the other contributors on this forum, Im sold on the Eurika.

Ok, a bit about me... Im 26, been living in Aus for 4 years now, migrated from South Africa. Love the outdoor lifestyle in Aus. Ive dabbled in some minor wood work, and building model airplanes and even a real life home built aircraft with my old man... So I have some techinical skill... I think...

I have ordered my set of plans from duckflatwoodenboats.com this week and I'm eagerly awaiting them. I have also found a local supplier of marine ply for $43 per 4mm x 2440 x 1220 sheet. After reading all the pages on here about the Eureka and what size to go with I have decided to try a 4mm thick ply.

However I would like to cover the bottom in some F/G, 2oz cloth for the extra strength on the 3ply ply... BUT, I have an idea, some of the model aircraft guys have vacuum bagged there composite wings, basically sucking out any extra resin, giving a stronger/lighter end product. Here is a link explaining a bit more. http://bertram31.com/proj/tips/vaccuum.htm
Im pondering doing the same with the outer hull of the Eureka.... Thoughts?

I will get the ply and start the marking out and cutting first... Can anyone suggest a basic list of materials that would be good to order from duckflatwoodenboats.com? I was thinking something along these lines:

5-252-5Epoxy Kit 3L Bote-Cote Stnd
as per Michaels website....

5-254-5Filler Fillet/Glue 400g 2L
too much? too little?

5-255-11F/G Cloth 93gsm 2.3oz 965mm
5m, for the outer hull.

5-256-9F/G Tape 155gsm 50mm
25m only? as im glassing the outer hull....

Hows that? quantities OK?

Thanks, and I look forward to sharing my building experience with all of you.

Nick

Boatmik

26th March 2008, 10:37 PM

Howdy Nick,

Nice to have you aboard.

The 4mm ply does make the boat a tiny bit more tricky to build - basically don't pull the stitching too tight to start with and put the threetemporary spreaders in place to hold the boat at the right width as early as possible.

If you stitch tight and put the spreaders in later you can end up with a concavity in the hull bottom. Not critical to performance or handling, but nice to avoid if possible.

You can either use glass tape on the inside or a number of builders have used a different scheme internally. They have used epoxy fillets on the bottom chine for its full length and in the cockpit area of the upper chine. The buoyancy tank area of the upper chine is glass taped. It will never be visible and there is no angle for a fillet to go into.

Glass tape should be 50mm.

Depends on what you want to do. With 4mm you will have to move the holes a bit closer together.

The glass cloth - if glassing the outside the glass does not need to cover the whole topside panel. Just the bottom, the bilge and then only 25mm onto the topside panel - that way it holds all the joins together.

Epoxy - I would probably consider getting 6litres. there will be a bit more epoxy if the bottom is glassed and you have to be real careful to do everything with 3 litres anyhow.

If filleting the inside - 2 litres of powder will just be enough.

Hope this helps
Michael

By the way, I got a copy of Australian Amateur Boatbuilder magazine today and the full page colour ad on the back cover is a Eureka - the first one that was built light.

Tor

27th March 2008, 11:08 AM

Hey Nick,

Emerald Pete recently finished one of these and I went for a paddle in a local dam. He built it at the Duck Flat Boat boat building course. Nice canoe but not quite big enough for me and the family!!! Apparently from the shore we "went off like a shot" have to say that it felt quite relaxed from where I was.

A couple of observations, the internal fillets may be strong but I didn't think they looked pretty in a interior with a raw finish and although it can be difficult to feather the resin at the edges of the tape I still think tape looks nicer unless you're gong to paint it.

Vacuum bagging seems extreme to squeeze out the resin. Isn't this application more appropriate for veneers where you want an even epoxy bond between sheets of wood. In this case where will the excess epoxy go. I don't think you need it for this, but I could be wrong.

Anyway have fun with the build and keep us updated with plenty of pictures.

Tor

bitingmidge

27th March 2008, 05:34 PM

Tor,

It is quite possible to do a very tidy filletted joint. The secret is to mask both sides of the join. In my view it takes a lot less work and cleanup than a taped joint, but I guess it's differences like this that make the world such a great place to live!

I've got some pretty clear instructions (I think) here. (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/theeurekacanoe-t.html)

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/Resources/spreader3.jpg

Vac bagging is used when gluing two sheets together, or veneers onto surfaces, because it's a really easy way to maintain even clamping pressure across the whole work piece.

Cheers,

P
:)

Tor

27th March 2008, 07:48 PM

Mr Midge,

No argument with the neatness and to Pete's credit they were very tidy, yours are quite good in comparison :wink:.

As you say wouldn't be right if we were all the same.

Tor

Boatmik

27th March 2008, 07:52 PM

Also some people like the look of fillets and others don't. Go whichever way rings your bell.

I didn't answer about vacuum bagging - you won't use very much resin at all for the glassing and it is put on in a controlled way. Vacuum bagging is most useful when there are thick or complex layups are being used and the resin is to be added in one hit.

The method used in the plans relies on putting enough epoxy down to hold the glass in place (so it goes clear) then when the first coat starts to become tacky the next one is added and so on until the weave is filled - so it is a controlled process.

Vacuum bagging allows you to do the resin part in one hit and save a bit of time and reduce the risk of the fibres floating around in too much resin. It is not a possibility if you follow the Eureka plan method.

MIK

nickpullen

27th March 2008, 08:28 PM

Hi

Thanks for the comments... I am still unaware of the build method used, still waiting on the plans... So I just coming up wth ideas, but as I read somewhere, just follow the plans... hahah

thanks again chaps.

Any Idea how long the plans take to get sent? I ordered it on Tuesday, and nothing has come off my credit card yet...

Cheers

Boatmik

27th March 2008, 10:23 PM

Normally they are very fast.

Did you order the PDF email plans or the paper plan.

The email plan you should have had within a working day. Paper should have been debited.

Go to www.duckflatwoodenboats.com and email them to check.

MIK

Daddles

28th March 2008, 08:32 AM

Hey Nick, just a thought, but I wonder if you aren't complicating this boat building a wee bit. Boats are essentially simple beasts and you don't need to get all hi-tech with them.

In this case, why go to 4mm ply with an associated layer of heavy glass (not to mention your vacuum bagging and all)? I don't know what the plans suggest, but slightly thicker timber coated with poxy and paint will give a perfectly serviceable craft.

Just a thought. In boat building, usually the first hint that you've done something wrong is when the build gets complicated.

Richard

nickpullen

28th March 2008, 09:47 AM

Daddles

28th March 2008, 10:00 AM

HI.

Ok... so you reckon 6mm? with just the seams taped and then the whole boat coated in epoxy resin to seal it off?

Wouldn’t the 4mm + 2oz glass be lighter and equally as strong as the 6mm with just tape and epoxy? At this point I haven’t purchased any materials, so I’m open to persuasion either way...

Thanks.

I was only throwing in thoughts Nick. I don't know the design and I don't know canoes. Go with Mik's advice whatever that is :wink:

I was struck more with the vacuum bagging. The more I work with boats and the more I work with experienced builders with a commercial background (ie, bloke's who've done it for real as opposed to hobbyists like you and me), the more I've come to watch out for complication. There is always an easier way of doing something and it often produces a better result. The yanks are particularly good at complicating boats.

Richard

nickpullen

28th March 2008, 10:15 AM

Thanks Richard,
I, as a complete novice, value your input, your knowledge is invaluable to me...

I’ve dropped the vacuum idea, with Mik's explanation, I realise it is not necessary in the Eureka construction.

The reason I’m wanting 4mm is for the weight aspect.... And the fiberglass for some protection against submerged objects...

Boatmik

28th March 2008, 12:51 PM

Exactly - and 4mm ply makes sense with 2oz glass.

BTW have you seen the big ad on the back page of AABB. It is for WEST epoxy and displays a Eureka in its natural environment - and even gives credit to the designer! Very good of them

MIK

nickpullen

28th March 2008, 02:04 PM

So 4mm + 2oz glass it will be, with tape on the inside, I don’t like the look of the fillets, and I think the copper stiches will be cool to see as well...

Mik, got a question, when I glass the outside. I’m thinking I should cut out the glass cloth using the bottom panel and bilge panels as templates, making the glass cut-outs 1inch larger than the panels, I'll do this prior to stitching, that way I get the overlap on the joins and the glass lays flat on the hull with the different angles. I hope you understand what I’m getting at here...

Then when I’m ready to glass the outside, I can lay the one piece of cloth cut from the bottom "template" and then do the two bilge panels.. That way it avoids funny folds and such that would occur from using a single large piece of cloth?

Or am I complicating the boat building again?

Thanks.

PS> Im going to the news agent to see if I can find a copy of the AABB after work...

Boatmik

28th March 2008, 02:51 PM

Nah Nick,

That defeats the purpose. The glass covers the bottom and bilge panel completely in one hit but overlaps around 25mm onto the topside panel as well.

You see, the big advantage is that there is only one fibreglass edge that has to be smoothed down to match the plywood.

You will need to cut a couple of 2" wide ribbons out of the light glass to put over the topside panels where they join at the stems.

On the inside of the boat use the manufactured glass tape - the inside is the most vulnerable side for the reinforcing.

MIK

bitingmidge

28th March 2008, 03:13 PM

Nick,

The glassing process as Mik describes is shown on my Eureka pages here (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/theeurekacanoe-f.html#):

Cheers,

P

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/Resources/eglass-3.jpg

nickpullen

28th March 2008, 03:47 PM

bitingmidge (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/member.php?u=2450),

I see you only did the bottom panel, not the bilge as well...

Mik,
So if you use one sheet for the bottom and bilge together, then you just work it so that it is flat and trim the ends by the stem on the bilge panel so it is flat... should you have any overlap on the bilge panel stems? as the cloth wraps round..

Sorry for complicating this...

b.o.a.t.

28th March 2008, 07:43 PM

nickpullen

28th March 2008, 09:31 PM

On the Eureka being built at Flat Duck early last year, the glass was brought to the edge of the stems & trimmed off. I assume the plan was to tape the stems & fair them later. Correct?
AJ

sounds like thats the go, cause you still have to tape the top panel section of the stem, you can run a nice 2inch strip right the way down to the bottom panel. that way you still end up with double on the bilge stem.... but again, makes fairing it all out more difficult...

Boatmik

29th March 2008, 12:22 AM

Nick's got a good point MIK.
I've never quite been happy with my lay-ups around curved stems.
On my kayaks I've wrapped the glass around from each side for a double+ thickness around the join. While there's no doubting the strength of it, this is an absolute curse to do, & is an untidy job needing much TLC later.

On the Eureka being built at Flat Duck early last year, the glass was brought to the edge of the stems & trimmed off. I assume the plan was to tape the stems & fair them later. Correct?

cheers
AJ

Hmmm, I didn't notice that AJ, but that's the way I would do it. I don't like doing multiple layers of glass in an uncontrolled way by folding over - much rather trim off and finish with a tape. On the outside of the stems it can be cut out of the 2oz to cut fairing.

Also to get it to lie flat you can use some double bias tape (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/doublebias.html) cut out of the 2oz.

Inside of stems it is ideal for a fillet.

MIK

nickpullen

29th March 2008, 03:19 PM

I couldn't find a copy of AABB, but I did find a WoodenBoat mag from the US. It's got a nice article on fiberglassing a canoe in it... basically what we have been discussing here...

Boatmik

29th March 2008, 04:37 PM

I am so dumb sometimes!

The Appendices of the Eureka plan have info on glassing. But it is repeated on this page.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/fibreglassinglargeareas.html

Many articles talk about applying epoxy before glass goes on. Not necessary and actually counterproductive unless the glass weight is very heavy or stitched cloths are being used.

Only caution is not to do glassing (or serious coating) on a day the temperatures are expected to get high while the temperature is rising.

Air inside the timber will expand and cause bubbles on the surface. On a hot day I would always glass when the temperature was likely to start dropping.

Best wishes
Michael

nickpullen

31st March 2008, 08:50 PM

hi folks...

my plans arrived today!! thanks...

now, where then hell do i find 5.1m lengths of oregon on rockhampton? any alternatives? ill try mitre10...

cheers..

nickpullen

1st April 2008, 11:09 AM

EISH!

I'm having a hard time tracking down any timber here in Rockhampton, No one has any Oregon, WRC, Paulownia. Closest I can find is rough sawn hoop pine in 150 X 25...

Any ideas?

bitingmidge

1st April 2008, 03:44 PM

The hoop's fine, (That's what Phil W used in the pic below) and don't get too carried away trying to find it in one length, a simple scarf in the middle will make it a lot easier to find timber of suitable size!

Cheers,

P
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2125/2261931429_8819338a18.jpg?v=0

whitewood

1st April 2008, 07:03 PM

Nickpullen,
If you think Paulownia is the way you want to go then send me a PM. I don't have 5m lengths but I do have a reasonable supply and can get it to Rockhampton. Check my web site www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au (http://www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au) for details.

nickpullen

1st April 2008, 08:48 PM

Hi.

So scarf joints are ok on the gunwales?
inner and outer?
stagger the joints?
so they are not all inline in the middle of the boat?
with a ratio of between 8:1 and 12:1?
what about 2 scarfs per gunwale(3 x 2m lengths of wood)?

Cheers, Im getting excited now!!!

Boatmik

1st April 2008, 09:49 PM

Nick - for gunwales 6:1 scarfs will be OK if you read the appendix about gluing end grain. You can do a scarf every 150mm if you get keen!

8:1 or 12:1 I would leave to sparmaking (and maybe aircraft for the latter - 12 sounds a bit crazy to meeeeee!)

MIK

nickpullen

1st April 2008, 10:00 PM

Thanks Mik.

Ive been doing some reading on scarf joints, So I understand now...

Is it best to cut the scarf on the 25mm side or 12mm side? I can see the 25mm side would provide more surface area for the joint but the joint would be in tension...But with the 12mm one it would allow the extra strength of having both sides of the scarf glued to the hull for "support" and the joint would be in sheer.

;)

Boatmik

1st April 2008, 10:29 PM

Doesn't make any effective difference - generally if you do it in the narrower dimension side then you use less timber and get the max surface area.

Michael

nickpullen

4th April 2008, 09:48 AM

I have ordered my timber from whitewood www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au)
Great service, Thanks John.

I think I have enough for the canoe, and the 3 paddles... Ill go get the Gaboon ply in the next week, as I have a week off work...

I also need to get some tools, Planes, spokeshave, sharpening stone, jigsaw, and some other bits, the Mrs said she will get me the jigsaw for my Bday next weekend...

All coming to gether now. Just have to get the epoxy system next...

Hmmm... and maybe the drop in sailing rig plan ;-)

nickpullen

4th April 2008, 09:50 AM

Oh, here's where we plan to go paddling and sailing (one day)... http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=causeway+caravan+park&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=50.303435,71.894531&safe=strict&ie=UTF8&ll=-23.201691,150.784049&spn=0.012819,0.017552&t=h&z=16

nickpullen

4th April 2008, 11:36 AM

Just went to the Library and got some books on Canoeing, Sailing and wood work techniques....

Boatmik

4th April 2008, 01:48 PM

There is a nice long river just to the south too!!!

And the back of Curtis Island and - wow I think you need to spend a month there!

Michael

nickpullen

4th April 2008, 01:59 PM

Yeah, the river is the Fitzroy, one of the biggest in Queensland. Its runs right through rockhampton. Also about an hour north there are some truly amazing little creeks that are set in the forest... not to mention the whole huge ocean!

Lots of boating places around here... And the weather is perfect 99% of the time.

Now I really want to get this ship going.

Boatmik

4th April 2008, 06:32 PM

Howdy Nick,

Do you mean it is time to get your ship together!?

MIK

nickpullen

4th April 2008, 08:58 PM

Yeah!!! I'm so excited! got my ply this arvo! 4mm Gaboon at $42.50 a sheet. Its such a beautiful color, almost pink...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3449/00214el6.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00214el6.jpg)

BTW, I downloaded those podcasts to listen to on the drive to work... Well, all I can say is I hope I am able to build a boat that reflects the quality of your plans and as well as your passion for small wooden boats...

Thanks for creating these incredible vessels.

nickpullen

5th April 2008, 03:59 PM

Bilge stem curve, pinned up and marked...
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4797/00005gl1.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00005gl1.jpg)

Bottom panel, pinned and marked.
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2794/00006ex4.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00006ex4.jpg)

One side done, just have to transfer and cutout the other.
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8135/00009ug9.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00009ug9.jpg)

nickpullen

7th April 2008, 12:55 AM

All 10 panels cut and plained to size... Just have to get the epoxy now...

nickpullen

8th April 2008, 02:35 PM

Just wondering, What is the reason for doing 3 coats of epoxy over the glass? do the extra coats actually add strength, or is it just to make it smooth? or to ensure the timber is sealed?

also, I see botecote has uv protection in it already... why varnish as well?

thanks.

Boatmik

9th April 2008, 10:15 AM

Howdy Nick,

UV is the downfall of all epoxies - it starts breaking the molecular bonds. UV protection gradually gets used up - its bonds are broken rather than the thing it is protecting.

That's why we have to revarnish boats stored out in the weather yearly where paint will go for a few years before needing more treatment.

So the purpose of UV resistant epoxies is twofold.
To prevent it breaking down during the building process
To prevent it from yellowing as the boat ages.

The epoxy that is coated over the glass (don't try to use too much epoxy thinking you can get the job done faster - it will end up on the floor and the runs will give you weeks of work) is to fill the weave of the cloth to provide a smooth surface for it to be sanded flat without sanding away much glass.

The plans explain the most efficient method and tell you when there is enough too.

If you are painting the boat it is possible to add some lightweight sanding filler powder to the epoxy- not so much that it becomes a paste - it still needs to be liquid - and that allows the weave to be filled faster.

BTW I would never paint the inside of a dinghy or canoe - always varnish - because varnish hides the defects better than paint does.

CAUTION - if using the lightweight filler method to fill the weave after doing the normal first coat - it is REALLY important that the initial coat be holding the glass down to the boat effectively, but still be tacky enough to make a bond with the new coat/s.

If the first coat is not holding the glass down well enough the thickened epoxy will be forced through the weave and float the glass off the surface - making a terrible lumpy job.

The lightweight filler coat method does usually require a lot more sanding - easier to sand -but getting into serious "swings and roundabouts" territory.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Sunlight during the building process is

nickpullen

9th April 2008, 09:00 PM

HI,

My Paulownia timber arrived today from Whitewood. Its great, and fast service delivered to my door. Nice clean straight planks. Thanks John.

Mik, thanks for the explanation...

nickpullen

15th April 2008, 10:26 PM

Hi.
I chopped all the paulownia up. Now its just assembly... sort of...

Here is my idea for a center spreader

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3337/centrespreaderfi7.png

Holes on the ends for fishing rods(40mm)
Gap in middle 40mm wide, thickness in middle 30mm each side. Should hold up?

Cheers.

bitingmidge

16th April 2008, 07:58 AM

Nice!

P
:2tsup:

Boatmik

16th April 2008, 09:43 AM

That looks like fun! I'd make it out of timber a little deeper or wider than normal. Or you could laminate some extra on the front and back edges after shaping the middle part.

nickpullen

7th May 2008, 04:00 PM

Ah Well... After a long weekend, I got some more work done... but not to say it was good work.. I'm disappointed with the end result...

First mistake:
I decided not to precoat the panels before stitching them together:doh:... And I really can remember why, maybe I was just too excited to go "3d" Anyway, The panels came together really well, boat sat nice and square everything lined up, put in the spreader bars and it was sweet...so I wetted out the 30mm each side of the panels where the tape was to go and stuck the tape down. worked the epoxy through with the 1 inch brush, came out great... Mixed up a bit off fillet for the inside of the stems, could have been a bit stiffer mix, but it worked ok... now heres where things went off track, badly... In my great moment, I did not use a roller to apply the next layers of expoxy to the inside of the boat. That is the 2nd layer on the tape and first on the wood.. And, I was impatient, I didnt wait long enough between coats.

Now the end result is that i have wavy runs on the inside everywhere and the epoxy seems uneven. however, luckily, as far as i can make out, the tape has stayed flat on the wood and hasnt lifted, so it looks like the structural integrity is not compromised... The bottom pannel is as flat as glass though, came out beautiful, But I do think I ended up using way too much epoxy in the end. about 1.5l just on the inside...:(( thats 3 coats on the tape and 2 on the ply.

Ok, so after milling over it, and even considering going and getting 2 new sheets of ply and starting over, I decided to take to the inside with the orbital sander to see if i can flatten it out a bit. Looks like it will work out ok, a bit of extra work, but I think it is salvageable and the boat should still come out ok.

Hmph...

Boatmik

7th May 2008, 05:15 PM

Howdy Nick,

Yep - it can be so tempting to get what looks like serious progress sometimes.

All I can do is say I have been there too!!!

I would suggest trying to get rid of most of the ripples on the inside. Keep the paper sharp and watch carefully the shiny bits. Blunt paper will tend to adapt to the different levels but fresh stuff will tend to take off the tops.

If you get rid of most of the ripples then when the interior trim etc goes in it will hide most of the rest. Then when it is varnished (yes, varnished) that will hide more. Paint would make every lump and bump highly visible.

Best wishes
Michael

Daddles

7th May 2008, 07:17 PM

Get to the poxy quickly - it sands nicely for a day or too, then turns into flint :oo:

Don't get too paranoid about the finish either, she's a boat not a piece of furniture. It's nice to have them perfect, but if a few runs in the poxy are all you have to worry about, she'll be a ripper of a boat :wink:

Richard

nickpullen

7th May 2008, 07:31 PM

Thanks guys.

I got at it a bit more with the sander, looks promising...

Whats the best way to apply the varnish? roller as well?

Boatmik

7th May 2008, 07:41 PM

Howdy Nick,

I generally use a good quality brush. But you don't do it until the boat is completely together - seats, decks, spreader, inwales - all fitted, shaped and cleaned up and epoxied.

MIK

KJL38

7th May 2008, 10:59 PM

Hello Nick, I've found a cabinet scraper works well for initially removing the extra resin. It's faster and you don't produce as much toxic dust.

Kelvin

Daddles

7th May 2008, 11:12 PM

Hello Nick, I've found a cabinet scraper works well for initially removing the extra resin. It's faster and you don't produce as much toxic dust.

Kelvin

ONLY if you get to it the next day. After that it's far too hard.

Richard

b.o.a.t.

8th May 2008, 12:47 AM

Get to the poxy quickly - it sands nicely for a day or too, then turns into flint :oo:

Richard

Funny how preferences vary.
Green epoxy clogs paper too fast for my tastes, even Al-Ox.
Prefer to leave it for a week or two. It's slower going, but the paper lasts longer & I feel I have better control of the job. (I'm talking hand sanding here - haven't fired up the orbital in the last 3 boats.)

cheers
AJ

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 11:06 AM

Kelvin ...

Toxic Dust is a bit strong :-). Cured epoxy is just dust! Safer than .... cedar.

It is very non reactive in that state - that is why it is so good for water and fuel tanks and can resist acids and alkalis. It just stays ... as dust as far as the body is concerned. Uncured epoxy on the other hand is a rather bad thing to allow into you lungs - for both reactive and more obvious reasons - eeeek.

AJ
Might be a bit of wax (amine bloom reaction byproduct) on your 'pox clogging the paper first - if the paper clogs really quickly this is usually the reason. Certainly it sands a lot cleaner when fully cured - though I like to have a go at glass tape the next day when it is hard but has not reached the full strength of full cure.

MIK

Daddles

8th May 2008, 11:58 AM

Funny how preferences vary.
Green epoxy clogs paper too fast for my tastes, even Al-Ox.
Prefer to leave it for a week or two. It's slower going, but the paper lasts longer & I feel I have better control of the job. (I'm talking hand sanding here - haven't fired up the orbital in the last 3 boats.)

cheers
AJ

I'm probably too ikey with the sand paper AJ, but when sanding green, and I ALWAYS use a power sander (I'm lazy too :rolleyes:), you knock it back really quickly and the clogging is about as much of an issue as your paper going dull. I've done too much sanding of cured epoxy to have any love for the job.

CLEAN UP PERFECTLY AS YOU GO!

The basic hull for Sixpence was built by a mob of novices and you could tell where one bod took over from another, where someone who was dilligent in cleaning up took over from someone who wasn't. I could remember some of the bits I worked on and fortunately, I was one of the good ones :rolleyes: There was actually a lot of satisfaction in digging out plank landing fillets done by others because they weren't as good as ones I'd done, though I suspect part of that was perfectionism strengthened by a desire to remove all evidence of other people working on 'my' boat :D But yes, you don't realise how important the clean up is until you've had to sand back the results :oo:

Richard

Daddles

8th May 2008, 12:01 PM

Might be a bit of wax (amine bloom reaction byproduct) on your 'pox clogging the paper first - if the paper clogs really quickly this is usually the reason. Certainly it sands a lot cleaner when fully cured - though I like to have a go at glass tape the next day when it is hard but has not reached the full strength of full cure.

MIK

I'd second the waxy bloom. Quickly scrub the surface down with a scourer and some water, then sand it. Makes a huge difference to the sanding :2tsup: (cue some funny looking boat designer fellow touting the virtues of BoteCote which doesn't need this step :rolleyes:)

Richard

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 01:30 PM

I'd second the waxy bloom. Quickly scrub the surface down with a scourer and some water, then sand it. Makes a huge difference to the sanding :2tsup: (cue some funny looking boat designer fellow touting the virtues of BoteCote which doesn't need this step :rolleyes:)

Richard

It sometimes needs that step - but usually not.

MIK
(I don't mind you thinking I am funny looking because I dont believe that there is any link between form (of the aesthetic type) and function. Form is just a fad!

b.o.a.t.

9th May 2008, 01:58 AM

AJ
Might be a bit of wax (amine bloom reaction byproduct) on your 'pox clogging the paper first - if the paper clogs really quickly this is usually the reason. Certainly it sands a lot cleaner when fully cured - though I like to have a go at glass tape the next day when it is hard but has not reached the full strength of full cure.
MIK

Shouldn't be amine - I use BoteCote.
Mind you, with the exception of the recent Teal mods, most of my epoxying is done Aug - Nov on an open back verandah. It is possible I don't get the same degree of curing in 12-24hrs as you wusses in enclosed sheds.... :wink: There's been a few times I've done some poxying, worked a shift, & come home to sticky pox. Slept, then scraped green pox more-or-less smoothe.

I now own a small bottle of poxy accelerator. Worked well last spring. And also the other day when the toilet cistern float fell off its arm. Up & going again in 9 hrs on an 18degC day.

AJ

b.o.a.t.

9th May 2008, 02:03 AM

I've done too much sanding of cured epoxy to have any love for the job.

AMEN BRO !!! I do it by hand on the canoes for the exercise... offsets the calories in the booze & the negative effects of a sedentary job (or so I tell myself).

CLEAN UP PERFECTLY AS YOU GO!

I whole-heartedly endorse this product/service !!!

cheers
AJ

coogzilla

10th May 2008, 05:12 AM

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue028.jpg

If you use one of these, it makes quick work on poxy.

regard's Keith

Daddles

10th May 2008, 09:19 AM

Lookit it the delicate little clamps he uses. You canoe builders have it easy. I don't even use those Quick Clamps anymore because I've broken too many. It's nice, strong F clamps for me :D

Richard

Boatmik

10th May 2008, 12:04 PM

Lookit it the delicate little clamps he uses. You canoe builders have it easy. I don't even use those Quick Clamps anymore because I've broken too many. It's nice, strong F clamps for me :D

Richard

Howdy Richard,

Don't you use them? They are the single most useful clamp in the universe.

Cheap (but get the ones that are a bit of an effort to squeeze - some are a bit (lot) light on.

I use them for any situation where they have enough width to grab what you need to hold.

Often you need a third hand when building ... now you have seen it (and the fourth, fifth, sixth and 25th hand.

My preferred building toolkit would have a dozen of these and then a some G or bar clamps - maybe for a canoe or dinghy you would only need 2 or a half dozen (if you had money to buy 'em)

The other thing about the more boisterous spring clamps is for simple glue up jobs their clamping pressure is about right for using epoxy which you don't want to overclamp.

MIK

b.o.a.t.

10th May 2008, 12:23 PM

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue028.jpg

If you use one of these, it makes quick work on poxy.

regard's Keith

Strewth Keith !
That's a complicated sanding block.
It'd be a heavy mongrel of a thing to push to and fro. Have arm muscles like tree trunks after a hull or two.
Can't see how you'd wrap the sanding sheet securely around it either.
Reckon I'll stick to me cork block for the moment. :wink:
AJ

nickpullen

12th May 2008, 01:43 PM

Hi Mik.

Just wondering, What would the maximum carrying capacity be for the Eureka? Built from 4mm with glass cloth on the bottom, and taped on the inside.

Thanks.

Boatmik

13th May 2008, 12:46 AM

Howdy Nick - maximum carrying capacity would not vary with the materials.

I'd like to think of it as canoe for two people plus gear.

For taller frames it can be worth moving the seats around a bit to give enough leg room at the front.

Michael.

coogzilla

20th May 2008, 10:02 AM

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue031.jpg

Not a Eureka
Pirogue

Boatmik

20th May 2008, 05:06 PM

Howdy,

Keep all the three spreaders in place until the bulkheads are fully bonded in place.

MIK

coogzilla

20th May 2008, 05:54 PM

Thank's Mik. I will. Whadda ya think of my little boat? It's a practise
lesson for me. I've botched it a little here and there, but all told it's
coming toghether ok. Coogs

coogzilla

20th May 2008, 06:31 PM

Mick, is 6mm sapele ok for ureaka?
Coogs

Boatmik

20th May 2008, 08:57 PM

Howdy Coogs!

I don't know much about Sapele, but most plywoods will be OK. The weight of the final boat depends mostly on the ply chosen and how little glass you use.

MIK

nickpullen

23rd May 2008, 02:29 PM

HI.

I have the bulkheads in place and the Gunwhales glued in. Will finish the end tanks this weekend and then get onto the inwhales.

Does it matter much what order you construct in? that is doing the end tanks before the inwhales?

nickpullen

30th May 2008, 09:41 PM

Hi all

Just wondering what to do about putting rope holes in the stems? any ideas?

thanks?

Boatmik

30th May 2008, 11:53 PM

Howdy Nick,

Did you notice how a whole bunch of people have been keeping your building thread quite active!!!! Excellent!

The bulkheads can go in any time. But what you do with the inwales depends on what you do with the decks.

Method A

If you make the back of the deck line up exactly with the bulkhead then the inwale will not have any relationship with the end deck. So you can do it in any order.

Method B

However if you want to extend the deck so it goes past the bulkhead so you can cut the back edge of the deck in a curve (which looks nice) - then you have to provide a rebate in the inwale for the deck to sit down into.

This means that it makes a lot of sense to glue in the inwale as per the plans so it sticks up above the plywood a small amount.

Then when the glue sets up you can trim down the gunwale and inwale so they are all flush with the ply top edge of the hull. It is probably only worth doing this for the length of the inwale as the gunwale also has to meet the edge of the sidedeck so you don't want to remove too much here. In fact be a little conservative and leave the gunwale and inwale just a shade above the side ply.

The side cleats and centreline support that support the underside of the deck need to be in place inside the buoyancy tanks and trimmed down to their final heights.

Then you trim the decks down to their final shape but don't glue them in. You need to cut the rebate in the inwale for the deck to sit down into. The rebate needs to bring the top of the deck down to the same height as the top edge of the ply. A mm too low is fine, but a mm too high will mean you are likely to go through the top ply veneer when you do the final shaping on the gunwale and inwale.

The rebate in the inwale is a bit of a fiddly job, but remember the deck will hide everything except the back of the rebate in the inwale - so that line needs to be the only truly correct bit of shaping - a few hollows in the top of the inwale - a slightly bumpy rebate doesn't matter as it will be hidden.

When the deck goes on it is important to work out how to hold it down BEFORE you use the glue. You can see some of the methods we used here

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2020/2439241043_4045d3284a.jpg

Note the ply pieces wrapped in brown packaging tape that are used to provide pressure where it is needed. We only used three screws in this deck and by putting them through ply blocks (wrapped in brown plastic packaging tape so they won't stick) the holes can be minimised.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/2440067120_29c1d04e14.jpg

Does that explain it Nick? In reality there are many ways - and it is important for each person to work out what they feel comfortable with. The most important part is getting the clamping method right when you are gluing - because if you do a neat job of that then the whole thing will look great.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2461847454_9594f2a780.jpg

And without glue you can take time to get it all right beforeheading to the epoxy pumps.

MIK

Boatmik

31st May 2008, 12:17 AM

Whew!

Now the holes in the stem for a rope is easy!

Before the deck goes on you have to glue in a block.

So usually I measure and mark a location for the hole on each side of the hull at each end. Don't drill it too far back from the end of the boat - maybe about 35mm back from the outside of the stem.

Make sure all square. Then drill a smallish hole - say 6mm in each of those 4 locations.

Then make up a wooden block of some lightish density wood - it doesn't need to be hard or heavy it needs to be around 45mm thick. Shape it so it will fit inside the tank at the right height - you will have to round the front of it to fit up against the bow fillet or glass tape. The fit doesn't need to be perfect because you can trust the 'pox. Draw an arrow on the back so you know which way is up.

Hold it in place and put a screw through each of the holes to hold it in place - they don't need to be tight. Then pull them out.

Make up a nice thick epoxy mix - peanut paste - and make enough to fill the gaps around the sides and front - jam in place and put the screws back in the holes.

When epoxy cures remove the screws and drill with a 6mm bit toward the hole in the other side - take some pains with looking from the front and the top to make sure you are heading in the right direction.

It won't quite be accurate but with a bit of going backwards and forwards you will find the hole coming from the other side. Use the drill to straighten the two hole directions so there is now a straight hole from side to side.

Now get a big drill bit - maybe 15 or 20mm and run through following your pilot hole carefully - the bigger bit will want to rush right through - so REALLY easy on the throttle and pull back to prevent it from rushing too much. Just go halfway from each side.

Make up another thick gluing epoxy mix and fill the hole you have drilled.

At the end put some packaging tape or paper over the holes on both sides and put a little hole in the tape in the middle of the holet with a sharp nail or pin or screw.

now comes the cool bit. Put a skewer or thin bit of wood or bit of twig (straight please) into the middle of the hole on one side and feed it through to the other piece of tape.

leave the epoxy to cure. When cured get rid of the tape or paper - get your 6mm drill bit and follow the stick through - it will want to follow as the gluing mix is so hard.

Then change to an 8mm bit (around there) and run it through the same hole. Go halfway from each side. Now you have the hole.

To prevent the rope from chafing you need to round the corners of the hole with sandpaper.

This is one of those things that takes longer to explain than to do. The block doesn't really need to fit very well - providing you mix up enough epoxy. And it is OK to have to feel your way and use many attempts to get the angle of the original pilot holes right. As ... it all comes out in the wash!

Best wishes
MIK

gdf26562

31st May 2008, 06:36 PM

Hi

Just the other day I was driving along the Murray River near Wentworth talking to my coworker about getting a Kayak so I can do some fishing, having just chatted about the things I have built, he says "why don't you build one":doh: Why didn't I think of that.

So with my imagination fired up I started looking on this site and lo what did I find, the Eureka canoe, and having read this thread and looked at ALL the pics I have sent away for the plans.

I have read the thread from start to finish and will be following in Nicks footsteps and trying to avoid the pitfalls and to make it easy for me. I like the idea of the fishing rod holes, might pinch that one.

Damn I wish I bought all the timber I left at my other house, mostly long lengths of Oregon, might have to make a 3000 round trip to collect it.

So in advance I thank you guys for your advice to nick and others and hope to have a Canoe to be proud off.

Graham

nickpullen

31st May 2008, 09:39 PM

Hi All.

Thanks for the ideas Mik. I have already stuck the gunwhales 4mm higher than the ply sides so that when the deck goes in it hides the endgrain of the sides. Still debating if I should curve the end of the deck, cutting into the inwhales. Clamping should be fairly simple, Ill use a similar method to the ones in the pictures, using some strips of wood and ply along with the clamps to hold it down flush. But first ill do those rope holes.

Not long off finishing it now.

I actually decided not to put the fishing rod holes in the centre spreader. with the 75mm spreader and the 40mm holes, there wasn't much meat left on each side...

But really, I am very happy with the Paulownia timber I used. It is light, easy to glue and very easy to sculpt/sand... I highly recommend anyone looking for timber to contact whitewood....

As always, hindsight is a wonderfull thing. I would like to build another Eureka one day, knowing what i know now, and just taking my time and be a perffectionist, building a showboat... But for now, this one is really just for some fun paddling. And im fairly happy with the outcome so far.

Also, how do you recommend transporting the Canoe? I have read a few Canoeing books and the idea I have is to get some roof racks, cover with some protective high density foam, and strap the canoe upsidown to that, and the tie the ends down to the cars bumpers...

Thanks for all your input guys.

nickpullen

31st May 2008, 10:29 PM

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3492/img1683zr4.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1683zr4.jpg)http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6293/img1684tx3.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1684tx3.jpg)
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5696/img1694gx2.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1694gx2.jpg)http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1367/img1734hn7.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1734hn7.jpg)
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/723/img1687ng9.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1687ng9.jpg)http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9285/img1738bh7.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1738bh7.jpg)http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5917/img1735ic6.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1735ic6.jpg)

Boatmik

1st June 2008, 11:25 AM

Howdy Graham,

Very welcome!

The little PDRacer class has records for just about everything - including the biggest fish caught.

I can't see why the Eureka should be different!

Boatmik

1st June 2008, 01:45 PM

Howdy Nick,

As we have a thread devoted to trailers - I am just making one devoted to roofracking boats.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=747203#post747203

nickpullen

1st June 2008, 09:07 PM

I only had a 13mm drill bit, so I figured once its dried ill drill it out with a 8mm bit, should be big enough, and have a bit of meat left... easy as.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8684/img1743ti1.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1743ti1.jpg)http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/816/img1745tr6.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1745tr6.jpg)http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5150/img1746yx8.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1746yx8.jpg)http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7153/img1748bx0.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1748bx0.jpg)

Peanut butter?
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8529/img1750pu6.th.jpg (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1750pu6.jpg)

nickpullen

2nd June 2008, 10:36 PM

One end deck on. NO SCREWS!

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9214/img1753id9.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1753id9.jpg)http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5075/img1751ux2.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1751ux2.jpg)http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/949/img1755jw3.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1755jw3.jpg)

Boatmik

3rd June 2008, 12:48 AM

Howdy Nick - I think that you definitely took less time to do it than I took to write about it.

Thanks HUGELY for these pics!!! Nice to have these methods documented. So my text and your pics work together very nicely!

Michael

nickpullen

4th June 2008, 09:38 PM

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5075/img1751ux2.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1751ux2.jpg)

One other advantage of sticking the gunwhales a few mm higher than the top of the deck is that it stops the clamps from slipping off the deck. See the picture above, the 6 clamps on the left. Just make sure you wrap the clamps in some packing tape. I put the gunwhales on first, and then had to shape the decks to fit into the space... not to0 difficult.

gdf26562

5th June 2008, 08:08 PM

Well I got the plans today and went straight to the local timber place, having just arrived in the area, Mildura I have no idea of the best place to go, so I thought I can order the marine ply through Mallee Timber, well I told him what I wanted, 2 full sheets and 1 half sheet of 3 ply, gaboon, "Never heard of that" I will ring our supplier they supply marine ply.

Well I received a call from him 1/2 hour later, they only supply full sheets and don't have gaboon but highly recomend hoop pine (from memory) but the cost is.... $95 a sheet, me thinks I might be taken for a canoe ride after reading that nick got the sheets for about $45

Ouch, thats expensive marine ply, I will look on the net for better prices, or can anyone in my area point me in the right direction.

Apart from that I am really excited and eager to start but don't want to buy anythig at any price.

Cheers
Graham

b.o.a.t.

5th June 2008, 10:29 PM

hoop pine (from memory) but the cost is.... $95 a sheet, me thinks I might be taken for a canoe ride after reading that nick got the sheets for about $45
Graham

G'day Graham
the hoop pine is Aussie made, & guaranteed to the AS/NZS for marine ply. Premium quality stuff.

The $45/sheet stuff is usually SE Asian origin Pacific Maple (Meranti)
It is stamped BS1088, but whether it really meets BS1088 is up for debate.
Fit for purpose.
Comparing the two is like comparing Jacobs Creek with Grange.

There is a bloke operating from a backyard at Heathfield whose prices are always very keen.
Wasn't thrilled with the quality of the couple of sheets I bought off him, but it could have been my poor storage.

I now pay a bit more - maybe $50-60/sheet (Pac.Maple) & get mine delivered from Duck Flat, partly from loyalty - they have never stinted with advice when I've asked for it (worth every cent of the extra cost), & partly because they've never sold me a dud sheet. Give them some extra denarii & they'll precut your sheets & save you some donkey-work.

Otherwise, get a copy of Australian Amateur Boat Builder magazine from your newsagent & choose one of the many advertisers. Also look at the plywood suppliers thread current in the boat building materials sub-forum

cheers
AJ

Boatmik

6th June 2008, 12:06 AM

Howdy gdf26562,

Hoop pine is not suitable as it is a smaller sheet only 2400 x 1200 rather than the more common 2440 x 1220 that the Eureka is designed for. The Hoop Pine is a very nice quality board - usually the exterior grade of Hoop is fine for boats.

Now be patient with me while I work through this...

I would strongly suggest getting three sheets - I would recommend it incase you have some problems on the way through - it sounds like it would be a big problem to get a bit more plywood.

Now if you go to THREE sheets and get 2400 x 1200 then I thought it might work OK to get the panels cut out.

I have just checked exactly that on the computer ... and it looks like it all fits except for the topside panels where you lose 5mm off each panel. This is not enough to be worried about at all.

So I would recommend ...

Have a crack at getting some 2440 x 1220 marine ply from Boatcraft Pacific in Qld - maybe the freight will be prohibitive, but it might be less too. They can supply epoxy and a lot of the other stuff which might bring the freight into some sort of perspective. I know some ppl in NSW and Vic country areas can get stuff cheaper from them than from Sydney or Melbourne
http://www.boatcraft.com.au/agents.html

If that doesn't work out get three sheets of Hoop pine exterior ply locally either in 4mm or 6mm. It should have very nice faces - don't accept anything less. Then we can talk about what you have to do to rearrange the sheets.

Now some other links which I dug up ... you probably have checked them all already ... but maybe...
Mildura Woodturners and Woodworkers Inc. http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/woodys/web/index.html

Hood J R & Son
115 Ninth St, Mildura, VIC 3500
p: (03) 5023 1567

Mildura Discount Plumbing Supplies Pty Ltd
132 Eleventh St, Mildura, VIC 3500
(they say they have plywood)
p: (03) 5023 6591

New Age Building Products Pty Ltd
428-430 San Mateo Ave, Mildura, VIC, Australia
Phone:350234114

Perma Laminating
46 Madden Ave , Mildura, VIC 3500
(03) 5021 2899

nickpullen

6th June 2008, 08:35 PM

I got those sheets of mine at a Farm Produce store...

I also reckon 3 sheets... An then you can make paddles and don't have t worry too much about squashing every bit in perfectly...

On the paddle subject, because I only have 4mm ply, I was going to cover the blade with a section of woven cloth, on a bias, for strength. should give some extra protection on the front face as well.

I hope to get all the building on the boat done this long weekend, then the paddles. I've got 4 weeks till we go camping at the Causeway, and hopefully the maiden voyage!

Also, what sort of provisions should I keep in those sealed end tanks? I was thinking a couple of those cool Tech Towels, First aid kit, duct tape, ???

Cheers

Daddles

7th June 2008, 03:53 PM

also, what sort of provisions should I keep in those sealed end tanks?

Rum, chocolate, brandy, chocolate, port, cashews, chocolate, money for more rum ...

Richard

Boatmik

7th June 2008, 06:13 PM

On the paddle subject, because I only have 4mm ply, I was going to cover the blade with a section of woven cloth, on a bias, for strength. should give some extra protection on the front face as well.

....

Also, what sort of provisions should I keep in those sealed end tanks? I was thinking a couple of those cool Tech Towels, First aid kit, duct tape, ???

Cheers

Howdy Nick,

AJ (B.O.A.T.) did some gorgeous paddle blades using the Storer plan using 2 layers of 4mm.

He planed the backs of the blades down for about 50mm round the edges to end up with the face side plywood completely unthinned, but the piece on the back with only one veneer round the outside (more or less).

The glass is too heavy - wood is much much lighter so his solution looks very nice. When I first saw them I thought they were a fancy store bought paddle because of the shininess of the different grains on the back of the paddle.

AJ ... I can't find me pics - do you have shots of how you finished the backs of your double paddles.

MIK

b.o.a.t.

7th June 2008, 11:18 PM

Howdy Nick,

AJ (B.O.A.T.) did some gorgeous paddle blades using the Storer plan using 2 layers of 4mm.

MIK

Awwww... shucks MIK... :B
About 3/5 the way down page 16 of the Eureka thread.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=531279&postcount=235

Tapered the second course of ply from the edge to the shaft - the edges are just the front 4mm sheet rounded off. No glass at all. Rough profile below. Keeps the weight out of the ends while retaining blade stiffness. Also the slightly foiled shape allows them to work a bit like sprint blades for even more power using a sprint stroke.

So far haven't looked like breaking, even in small surf. Wondered about glassing the face too. So far the odd rock doesn't seem to have had much effect other than surface scratches in the varnish (10 coats). With a layer of 1oz or 2oz glass on the face I might think about taking them thinner again. Or maybe not. My 'big' 2200mm paddle with larger blades than MIK designed weighs 950g (according to my dodgy kitchen scales). Just over half of the weight of the ABS/ally paddle it replaces (1.8kg).

BitingMidge has put together an amazing hollow-shaft single paddle that weighs a whisker more than a feather.
Any chance of pics Midge?
cheers
AJ