Modifications to a Whilly Boat

[Paul A Atkins]

Hi All,

In 1988 Michael drew a wonderful sail plan for my Ian Oughtred Whilly boat, as you may see by my avatar and signature pic, it all works swimmingly.

My most amazing wife has recently given me plans to a Norwalk Island Sharpie 23' (7m), and before I launch into it, I promised my Whilly boat that it would finally receive some attention of the maintenance variety. You see since launching in 1989, I have done nothing but sail it.

I now have two little girls (3.5 and 4.5 yrs old) and they are being taught the magic of sailing and the Whilly boat needs some tweaks to make it more child friendly (plus the NIS is years away!)

My questions to Michael are:

1 - To minimise the chance of the center plate chopping little fingers off, should I weight the board and cover up the slot in the cockpit?
2 - Will this put any additional stresses on the board being weighted?
3 - How much weight?
4 - Lead on the tip/in body - I like the tip idea, as protection.
5 - The lovely curved tiller makes sitting on the back deck (nice when the boat is loaded with kids) impossible, I was thinking of swapping to a yoke and push pull stick, your thoughts?

Michael, thank you for your consideration, you work is first class, the Whilly is a treat to sail.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Paul,

(the standard lug rigged Whilly has a single lugsail - my original job was to play with the main and add a mizzen. The whilly is aroud 13ft long.

Paul's boat was carefully built using the full epoxy catastrophe and entirely clear finished. 18 years with no new coats of varnish!!! (were we really all that young then, Paul?)

Paul does use the boat carefully and keeps it out of the sun when not in use - but that is it - so if someone tells you that epoxy doesn't reduce maintenance ...)

First of all a return question. I don't understand (yet) what the problem is with the centreboard. If it is ballasted or unballasted it still works the same way and is a risk to little fingers. I would think adding ballast would make the action more vigorous and so be more risky for fingers. I'm asking this because there is something I feel I am not understanding.

With the tiller - I suspect that having your weight so far back in a pointy sterned boat may not work so well - sink the stern and float the boat on a much narrower part of its anatomy for a reduction in stability.

Maybe shortening the tiller a bit might give you a bit more freedom. Generally I don't like the push pull yoke - the yoke on the top of the rudder needs to be a similar length to a tiller to get the right mechanical advantage and I do know very experienced sailors that have pushed when they should have pulled. Also the mizzen will get in the way when you have to go sit on the other side.

[Boatmik]

Any chance of putting a few more pics up - it is such a pretty boat.

Paul is a photography nut, but he is always the one SAILING the boat

MIK

[Daddles]

Why do people avoid making those long, curved tillers to get around the mizzen mast that Iain shows on his plans? I haven't made one but I've laminated other stuff and it's not hard. Makes for an elegant solution.

Mind you, my yawl's getting an offset mizzen which removes the problem :wink:

Richard

[Boatmik]

That is exactly what Paul has now - a long curved tiller.

MIK

[Daddles]

That is exactly what Paul has now - a long curved tiller.

MIK

I can see I'm going to like this Paul bloke :D

Richard

[b.o.a.t.]

Howdy Paul,

Maybe shortening the tiller a bit might give you a bit more freedom. Generally I don't like the push pull yoke - the yoke on the top of the rudder needs to be a similar length to a tiller to get the right mechanical advantage and I do know very experienced sailors that have pushed when they should have pulled. Also the mizzen will get in the way when you have to go sit on the other side.


What about a long cross-yoke on the rudder head & a rope tiller running around the boat? Reachable from anywhere in the boat. I tried it with an old Moth rudder assembly on a canadian one time & it worked ok. Also started with that arrangement on my Teal. Would have been better if I'd had the cash to do the rope in 8mm kernmantle rather than 4mm polycord.

That said, a tiller still feels more satisfying..
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy AJ, I know Herreshoff (Nat) used it in his beautiful Coquina.

But to get the mechanical advantage you still need quite a long yoke on the top of the rudder or have a multiple part purchase - I think Herreshoff used a 4:1 purchase.

I don't know, but I would try to think about it in terms of moving crew around before resorting to mods that may or may not work. MAAAAAAYBE a bit off the end of the tiller.

I am a little worried about Paul's assumption that the problem is that the tiller is preventing him from sitting far enough back - the boat has a canoe stern after all.

After all it would be a shame to compromise the handling of such a nice responsive boat.

MIK

[Paul A Atkins]

Thanks Michael, and others for your thoughts.

The Whilly is 14'6" and is quite a mover. Twice I have had it planing on a broad reach, I felt it break the surface and scoot. Rooster tails from the centre board case are not uncommon.

You will note in the new pics shots of the boat reefed. I approached Michael at the WB festival to ask how to tame the boat, I asked about lead ballasting etc, he said "have you thought about reefing it?". I thought those silvery rings things in the sails were for decoration! Well it was wonderful, a new boat. It was blowing that day, and the reef made it a heap of fun.

The isssue with the centreboard is the scissor action the top of the board makes as it kicks up, and the little fingers can get in the way. I have to watch it like a hawk, you may see the front edge of the case in one of my pictures labelled "Jo astern".

I agree about the weight distribution..when single handing. But when ladened with people and/or gear I need to get back away from the clutter, then the curvy tiller becomes a brute.

I have considered the rope running aroung the boat, a nice idea. How would it work when hiking out?

PS - Ask Michael about secret hand shakes...

[b.o.a.t.]

Dunno Mik. If there are so many kids aboard that the only space left is the rear tank, the handling is probably already shot !!

That's one trouble with double-enders. As the entire canoe stern is swept by the tiller, that entire section of the boat is lost as accommodation space. A 14' boat with a 4' tiller becomes a 10' boat... You may have noticed that my 12' Teal with a 3'6" tiller had no more useable room than the TB or the Nutshell.

When carting kids, there is no corner to prop in & regularly count noses. Harder to keep tabs on a tribe of littlies if you have to sit amidships & look both ways ! Sitting aft also gives one a chance to grab the odd escapee :oo: as one glides past them, without having to put about & do the full man overboard thing. :2tsup:

In these ways, Paul's query makes much sense. Maybe if he built a whole spare rudder box with a cross-yoke to experiment with loads & etc...

Paul, can you post photos of this finger-eating centre-board assembly ? I'm intrigued...

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Photo - Good Idea AJ,

Do you have a cockpit shot too Paul?

What I'm thinking is that the normal maximum situation is that you will have your family aboard. Your wife and two kids doesn't seem like a lot of people to deal with to me.

There might be some occasions when there are lots more kids aboard. But I imagine that they are occasional. I don't think it is worth changing the function of a boat for an occasional situation.

Sailing boats go best with the weight central. They go fastest, they handle the best and they handle difficult conditions the best. If the nose starts going under a bit you do need to move aft, but that is it.

Also I really can't see the problem. Paul sits behind the centrecase on the floor or on the mid seat and moves up onto the gunwale when he is by himself.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/oughtred/WhillyTernPlan.jpg

Where does your wife sit Paul, when it is just the two of you? If she is on the mid seat and pushes you a little back then there are the two wells either side of the centrecase for the two girls.

This suggestion of mine might be a bit like the old primary school joke ...

How do you get 5 elaphants into a Morris Mini Cooper?
Two in the front seats, two in the back seats and one in the ashtray.
(I didn't understand the joke 40 years ago and I still don't)

But, point is, I don't have enough information to see what the problem is yet. I can see that as the girls get bigger there are going to be problems - but that is because the boat is not designed for four adults.

I can't say - go for the rope - because I have serious doubts that it works well. It might work OK - but for me sailing function needs to be simple fast and precise - because that is where safety is. Again I don't know for sure - but I do know how sticky putting a few blocks in a rope system makes it. Also the chance of someone leaning where they shouldn't and preventing a needed point up or bear away. Just that instant.

That doesn't mean I am right either (again), but the systems that are being suggested are ones that haven't caught on in 100 years. I always find myself in a strong position of doubt as to their efficiency when this is the case.

They have failed either because they don't work particularly well - eg canted rigs - or because the existing paradigm for their execution is wrong (sailing hydrofoils until the paradigm changed in the late '80s - they barely worked in a straight line, then suddenly there was glorious manouverability) - and paradigms are very hard to avoid in one's own thinking.

If you do go for the rope you will need a yoke on top of the tiller (a transom sterned boat allows the ropes to run off the back of the rudderbox to the corners of the transom so doesn't need a yoke). Use a small diameter rope compared to the size of the blocks that it runs through (the best way of reducing friction) and where the rope goes through a serious angle it may be worth considering ball bearing blocks for that one.

Best wishes
Michael.

[Paul A Atkins]

I am hearing you about the helm. I might try the push pull, it will be nothing permanent, i will keep my "curve".

Here are some cockpit pics and other boat pics. (http://www.atkins.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=441)

[b.o.a.t.]

I am hearing you about the helm. I might try the push pull, it will be nothing permanent, i will keep my "curve".

Here are some cockpit pics and other boat pics. (http://www.atkins.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=441)

Thanks for the pics Paul.
Sweet boat. Better in colour than in B&W in the DF Book of Dreams.

MIK is right of course. Except that rope systems are (or have been) fairly common, but not on sailing dinghies - most often combined with a wheel to operate a rudder from a remote helm. Think old speedboats & riverboats. Half an idea even a whipstaff used rope or chain linkages.

Compared with a tiller, yoke or rope are far less positive or intuitive. I dropped the rope system & went back to a tiller on Teal for exactly that reason. They offer far less feel, & unless your yoke is about as long as a tiller, or you use a pulley system for mechanical advantage, it is harder to input tiny corrections. From the little bit I've done with them, 8mm is as small a rope as you'd want to go for hand operation.

I've taken the liberty of doodling on the Whillyboat plans to give an idea of the size of yoke & etc you'd need.

A push-pull tiller has a nasty habit of disappearing overboard unless restrained somehow. Also, to be useful, a push-pull tiller has to be darn long to reach across the boat to where you are hiking. As per the blue line. Even more intrusive than a tiller on the 'wrong' tack.

Now, having said all that, I re-read your original posting & see you are only worried (at this stage) about getting around with 2 kids. I was thinking half a dozen kids, as was frequently the case with my old TS16.
In which case, MIK is doubly right. Leave it alone, or maybe add a bit of extra seat forward of the rear box & ahead of the tiller sweep arc.

Returning to the centre-board.... is a rope pull down/up system not an option?

cheers
AJ

[Paul A Atkins]

Currently the rope is used to pull down, but I recon a weighted board with a rope to raise hence allowing for a sealed case top. I am just concerned that adding weight to the board will change the stresses on it.

Hey on a slightly different topic, the board has some bare 'glass showing on it, how do I cover it? Do I sand, add 'glass cloth to the wear area, and re-epoxy it. Or do i need to sand it all back past the 'glass and re-do it all?

Thanks for your interest and advice.

[Paul A Atkins]

PS: that yoke is big and ugly! I had envisioned a foot long arm on one side and the stick going forward. I know the stick would need to be long, but I think with the leverage I'd need, the yoke would be ungainly.

[b.o.a.t.]

I doodled the yoke full width for the rope tiller I drew around inside the hull. One side is all that is needed for a push-pull tiller.
As for yoke length.... how would you like to steer her now with a foot-long tiller ? Think of it as a very long tiller extension... Still needs a decent length tiller to work against. The push-pull on my canadian worked ok with a 300mm side-arm. But that was only a little Moth rudder - not much area to fight. Fine adjustment was hard & even that little rudder stiffened up at speed.

cheers
AJ

[Cybernaught]

I have used rope steering and push pull tiller on a Featherwind and on my Aquilia, when it was a decked sailing canoe. I prefer the rope. It can be got-at from anywhere in the boat and if you tighten the line a bit it will stiffen up and it can steer it'self for short distances. It also adapts easily to foot steering if you want that. When I sail I prefer to faced forward. Craning the neck fore and aft while sitting sideways is a bit bothersome with the arthritis. When Aquila-the-punt is in the water, soon I hope, I would consider putting rear view mirrors on her. Yes. Seriously.

With rope steering I suggest the the crosspiece on the rudder head be close to the beam of the boat in length. It helps to have the leverage. I have used screw-eyes without pulleys on 16 foot boats for guides without any problem. Push pulll stick requires a lot more attention and needs a keeper of some sort to stop it going over board and dragging aft. I also like a jam cleat for the main so I can have hands off sailing for enough time to pour a drink or fill and light the pipe without heaving to.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h94/Hunter1945/Punt7.jpg

Here's a picture of my setup and on the starbooard side is a simple adjuster that lets me set the tension I want on the rope. The adjuster idea is stolen from the old pup-tent tie-down adjuster.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h94/Hunter1945/Adjuster.jpg

Try it and see what you think. You can always remove it and go back to a tiller if you don't like it.

BTW, the yellow string, in the first picture, on the port side against the backrest is used to raise the rudder and has a loop that hooks on the port deck cleat to keep it up.

Good luck!
CN

[Boatmik]

Thanks for the pictures CN and the words of experience. AJ - good stuff on too short tillers/yokes
MIK