Idiot proof sharpening

[GraemeCook]

For years I have simply "sharpened" chisels, plane blades, etc on a course & fine oilstone, sometimes preceded by a touch on the power grinder if the blades were really bad. Now I find that my tools have never been sharp, and my technique is lousy.

I have just helped a friend, an 80 year old joiner/furniture maker, put a conservatory on his house and I used his tools. I found that "very smooth shave" sharp tools:

** were much easier to use,
** gave a much better finish,
** were probably safer,
** and the whole experience was very pleasurable.

He gave me instructions on freehand sharpening using oilstones but I find it virtually impossible to hold a blade at a constant angle without wobbling it. My multi-bevelled chisels attest to this. His "it's only taken me 75 years to learn..." is not really helpful.

Having searched the web and read most posts on this site on sharpening I now seek your collective advice. Basically I want a technique that is quick and easy and essentially deskills the sharpening process. I do not have 75 years to acquire Baz's expertise!

From what I have read it seems the best strategy for me would be to:

** buy a Veritas Mk II honing guide,
** set up a "scary sharp" system initially using melamine boards (trial) and then plate glass if I am satisfied with the system and results,
** use aluminium oxide or wet & dry sandpaper of grits 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2000 and 4000, and
** finish with a honing compound.

This system seems to eliminate problems in keeping oilstones or waterstones flat - mine are concave - and the alleged extra costs of sandpaper would be more than offset by my ability to grind away tools and gauge out sharpening stones. The skill required does not seem to be very high.

Am I on the right track? You constructive opinions will be most appreciated.

Thanks

Graeme

PS: Does one put water on the wet & dry or use it dry?

[China]

I can't help, Iv'e been doing it your friends way for the 37 years it only takes practise, oilstones only need to to be flattened if you have the wrong technique, go and spend a bit more time learning from your friend, some people make sharpening so complicated it is scary

[Wood Borer]

Graeme,

I use water stones nad recently ceramic stones.

Waterstones do not take much effort to flatten.

I use a honing guide only very occasionally for my chisels and planes but sharpen them freehand most of the time.

[Cruzi]

Using the system you are considering, sharp has a whole new meaning.
With sharpening, everyone has their own method, but if the word freehand gets mentioned, its all over for me.
There are plenty that can freehand, more power to them, but complete unco's like me need the MKII.
With the MKII, repeatability is assured and if you get used to the scary sharp system, scary sharp is possible.

I use scary sharp and MKII, and highly recommend it.
You can use the wet and dry either wet or dry (:U), just make sure you remove all grit from jig and blade before going up in grits..

[Howdya do that]

** buy a Veritas Mk II honing guide,
** set up a "scary sharp" system initially using melamine boards (trial) and then plate glass if I am satisfied with the system and results,
** use aluminium oxide or wet & dry sandpaper of grits 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2000 and 4000, and
** finish with a honing compound.


Graeme,

This is the go:2tsup:. My experience was exactly the same as yours and I ended up with the system you describe above and it excellent. I have the stitch marks to prove it.

The only comment I would add is if you have a damaged chisel, say from dropping it on the concrete floor:doh: it takes a lot of rubbing on sandpaper to remove a nick from the cutting edge.

I have since bought a Triton wet grinder which I use first, followed by my "scary sharp" board which now only has 800, 1200 & 2000 grit paper, last step is a micro bevel on the 2,000 grit which is a POP with the MKII guide.

I dont know if it is "correct" or not but my emery is on glass and I wet it lightly (mist) using a spray bottle.

[Geoff Dean]

Howdya,

Do you use sticky back paper?

Do you "grind" in both directions, ie. push and pull?

I have not been able to source any sticky back paper locally, and seem to tear up a lot of paper when pushing chisels forward.

[Howdya do that]

Geoff,

I use spray adhesive. got a good one though like 3m poster adhesive. The paper will roll off the cheap stuff in about 3 days. and I get the paper from a panel beater oddly enough it's 3m as well but for some reason lasts heaps longer than the stuff you get from super cheaper auto and the like.

I push and pull. I have also found that pressing down across the front of the guide rather than the chisel it self gives a more consistent result.

[Geoff Dean]

Howdya,

Thanks for the info.:2tsup:

[jmk89]

Graeme

The system you are considering ( a kind of scary sharp) will work well and give you good and repeatable sharpening. I used it for several years and would still if I hadn't put the WASP on my drill press and started to use it instead. The instructions are here (http://www.piricdesign.com.au/articles/hints-tips/sharpening-chisels-plane-blades.html), supplemented by this (http://www.piricdesign.com.au/articles/hints-tips/another-sharpening-device.html). This gives me more consistent results faster than the system that you are going to use.

But I am not saying that WASP is the only way to go, just letting you know that having been thru the same journey as you are undertaking, it works for me. And if the system you use doesn't work for you, there are alternatives.

When it comes to sharpening, the only thing that matters is whether it works for you. There is no perfect system, only systems that you feel more or less comfortable using. Experiment until you find that system and then stick with it, until you find something better!!

:rantoff:

[Ianholc]

Graeme,
For the first 20 years I used freehand (and with a lot of effort could get an average edge). A few years ago I switched and now use a honing guide. That way it takes the guesswork out of the angle and allows a repeatable process which takes less effort, takes less steel off the tool and produces a good edge. I have tried the scary sharp method and rate it highly, but still use stones. I do true up the stones every few years on a piece of sandpaper backed to glass.
I am interested in the physics of an edge. 25-30 degrees is recommended for chisels and planes. I used to use much less until I realised that the angle affect the life of the edge. Low angle edges may be finely sharp, but they appear not to last as well as more obtuse angles....Would like to hear others thoughts on this.
At this point a disclaimer: I learnt woodwork through careful observation of thirty years of errors (I'm still making them)...The blokes who do it by the book do it for a reason...the book is usually right. On the other hand by making mistakes we find out why the book is right...and occasionally if we are luck we conclude the book needs revision. Guess thats a lot of not so humble opinions...sorry for clearing my chest.

[derekcohen]

Hi Graeme

It matters less what you use to sharpen with - it matters more that you do it the correct way.

The MIROS (Most Important Rule Of Sharpening :U) is that you create a good primary bevel. It this is not done, you will never, never, never get a good edge on the blade. I come across so many woodworkers who slave for hours over their stones or sandpaper and still get crappy edges. They may have done this for years! When you look at their edges you see a silver line refllected in the light - proof that the primary bevel does not reach the back of the blade.

So grind until you get a wire edge. Then remove the wire edge so that the subsequent grit used can be judged to have smoothed the metal to the back of the blade again.

A good primary bevel made with 1200 grit will outcut a poor primary bevel made with 200000 grit. :C

The next question I would ask is whether the blades are for a plane or a chisel. And if for a plane, whether the plane is bevel up or bevel down. If bevel down and/or chisel, then I (this is my choice - your mileage may vary) would hollow grind first. Get as close to the edge as possible to reduce the amount of steel to hone. Freehanding a hollow grind is a doddle. Bevel Up blades are different in that they require a specific angle and thus a honing guide is best (the Veritas is the best on the market).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rhancock]

Hmmm... I've practised and practised for years, but I'm still not an Olympic swimmer!

Practise isn't the only thing, and there are some things some of us will never master.

I can get a decent enough edge on a chisel and a plane for site work using just a hand powered grinder with a white wheel, but for fine woodworking I'm setting up a scary sharp system, although jmk89's system will give me another reason to buy a drill press, so I might go that way in the near future.

[munruben]

I have the Veritas MK2 and it is really great piece of equipment but I still haven't been able to achieve the sharpness that is talked about in these forums. I use W&D on plate glass and I also have a piece of granite which I am going to use. I think it would help if I actually watched someone sharpen with this method so I could see where I was going wrong.

[Cruzi]

Buy a magnifying glass, something in the region of a 10x loupe is good.

You can then use it to examine the edge as its being formed or not. Once you have a good technique, the loupe is not required, but as a learning aid it is highly recommended.

[derekcohen]

Buy a magnifying glass, something in the region of a 10x loupe is good.

You can then use it to examine the edge as its being formed or not. Once you have a good technique, the loupe is not required, but as a learning aid it is highly recommended.

I think this is good advice for someone who complains of poor edges. Before you look at your sharpening apparatus, look at the results you are getting to understand if the problem lies elsewhere (as I noted earlier on).

I have lots of different mediums to use. That is not because they fail to work. They all work. I have them because I am curious and because I seek faster or more convenient methods. But they all work. I think that the original problem lies with technique, not the tool.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[GraemeCook]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful and considered opinions.

I envy the acquired skills of those who consistently freehand sharpen and get excellent results. My efforts are feeble - lots of facets on the chisel bevel rather than a nice smooth flat bevel. I have chisels and bevel down planes.

Jeremy, I don't think I'll do enough sharpening to justify a mechanical system, which looks like an electrical scary sharp system! But I can see why you like it.

The next step has been taken and I have put is put in an order for a Veritas Mk II. Then some practice and I'll find out if it works for me.

Incidentally, one of the things I didn't expect was simply the psychological effect of using properly sharpened chisels. It was somehow calming and therapeutic.

Thanks again

Graeme

[barnsey]

G'day Graeme,

First let me say that Derek knows his stuff and you can learn a lot there but you sound a little like me. My recommendations_
8" grinder.
Blue wheel - they cut much cooler.
Adjustable tool rest to be able to vary the angle to the wheel.
Something to measure the angle of the bevel.
This will enable you to get the hollow grind bevel on the tool of choice. There are any number of websites about that will give recommendations on the angles required and they will vary depending on tool, timber, cut vs longevity. A bigger angle means more metal at the edge and supposedly a more durable edge within reason but material and circumstance have big effects too.
I have a Stanley honing tool which is fine but I find I now only use it to get an edge back on a gapped tool that doesn't warrant grinding - not so often these days but they have their purpose. A hollow grind lets you place the tool on the stone and feel where the 2 points touch the stone - then a slight raise of the back hand will allow you to sharpen on a stone.
A hollow stone is a problem and others have talked about flattening them. My dad always taught me to use the whole stone, I've gapped a blade or two using the end of the stone closest to me but you learn. Stropping a tool like a barber also has some merit.
Scary sharp is a brilliant concept but if I can shave my arm with a stone finish I'm happy.
Reckon scary sharp is for those that produce more quality than quantity of wood shavings. They didn't have that concept to produce unreal carvings, furniture, totems, tree trunk canoes in days gone by - nor did they have the steels we have today - so using what you have has a lot to do with it.
It will not take long to get a "feel for it" - it's just like sex!! You can go the automated/blow up version or you can do the real thing!
That clean, fine shaving from the real thing is twice that of the other version and has a lot more of your own skill to show for it.
You know what you want.
My ramblings for what they're worth.

[rhancock]

Is that the first time scary sharp has been compared to sex?

[GraemeCook]

So far I have consistently failed Derek's MIROS in that I have never achieved a good primary bevel. It seems that a honing guide may give me consistency and repeatability (love that word) whereas freehand I get wobbly and totally original results every time. Anyhow, the Veritas has been ordered.

Possibly I could get good results with a good guide on my wheel, but that might be the next step. The existing wheels are a sort of bluish grey.

Derek, Barnsey et al: When you talk about a hollow ground bevel, is that simply the slightly concave bevel from holding the blade against the electric grinding wheel? ie curve with same radius as the wheel? Or am I missing something.

Richard; in your reference to sex were you scary sharp or freehand....

Cheers

Graeme

[Clinton1]

Graeme,
Yes, the MkII Veritas guide gives great 'repeatability'... I got mine a while ago, and consistantly get consistant results.
I used to do Scary sharp, but switched to a 300 and 6000 grit waterstone set. Scary Sharp gets results, but I didn't like the fact that I needed a plate of glass with sandpaper glued to it hanging about the shed....kept thinking that it would be broken one day, and the sandpaper needs replacing, regluing..... the waterstones just worked for me, although I was happy with the scary sharp system.
Not trying to sell you on another way... just advising that you might like to try waterstones at some point.

Back to the MkII Veritas guide... its just.... easy.
I'd suggest that you both read the instructions and remember to write the bevel and micro bevel angles onto the blades you sharpen, so you don't end up scratching your head trying to remember what angle you sharpened at last time. I didn't do either and 'learnt from my experience'. :rolleyes: :D



When you talk about a hollow ground bevel, is that simply the slightly concave bevel from holding the blade against the electric grinding wheel? ie curve with same radius as the wheel?

Nope, you are missing nothing, spot on. Because the blade has a hollow in it from the curved wheel, less of the blade will be in contact with the stones or sandpaper, resulting in less effort and used up sharpening medium.

Have fun.....

[GraemeCook]

Graeme,
..... and remember to write the bevel and micro bevel angles onto the blades you sharpen, so you don't end up scratching your head trying to remember what angle you sharpened at last time. I didn't do either and 'learnt from my experience'. :rolleyes: :D


.....


Thanks for you practical advice Clinton. I am trying to learn from other peoples experience and thus steepen my learning curve.

Once I have mastered the scary sharp method then perhaps I will look at waterstones or diamond sharpeners or whatever. In the meantime lets keep it as simple and as idiot proof as possible.

Thanks

Graeme

[Aussie Wood]

Sharpening has probably occupied more of my time than anything else. A few years ago, whilst learning carving, I came across a technique of fixing fine sandpaper to a 8" wooden wheel which was then attached to a normal 8" grinder - this was great for gouges and the like, as the bevel just had to be smooth, and the important thing was speed, and sharpness. I actually submitted it to Fineworking a design idea, that was duly publised. The problem is that for planer blades and chisels it is very difficult to keep the right bevel, and have never found small manual jigs with wetstones of any use - besides they just take too much time.

A few weeks ago, I made two purchases, one a slower speed 8" grinder (1750 rpm reduces the heat build-up) and a Tormek T-7 in order to continue my experiments. Well, I have to say that my first experiments with the Tormek have been extremly impressive. My first trial was with a standard 25 degree Plane blade, that within about 5 minutes, including the set-up time was razor sharp and with a perfect bevel. My test, was to be able to shave the hair on my arms - which are just about denuded of hair now ;-)

With regard to the slower speed 8" grinder, this is proving to be very good as well, although I have not achieved the accuracy I can get from the Tormek. I am going to obtain a sorby jig to go with the slow speed grinder and will let you know how I go.

[routermaniac]

A few weeks ago, I made two purchases, one a slower speed 8" grinder (1750 rpm reduces the heat build-up) and a Tormek T-7 in order to continue my experiments. Well, I have to say that my first experiments with the Tormek have been extremly impressive. My first trial was with a standard 25 degree Plane blade, that within about 5 minutes, including the set-up time was razor sharp and with a perfect bevel. My test, was to be able to shave the hair on my arms - which are just about denuded of hair now ;-)

With regard to the slower speed 8" grinder, this is proving to be very good as well, although I have not achieved the accuracy I can get from the Tormek. I am going to obtain a sorby jig to go with the slow speed grinder and will let you know how I go.

Its interesting that you mentioned the T7. I have recently bought one of these also. I think the benefit of the machine is that it allows easy grinding to the edge of a tool and is surprisingly fast (even compared to a regular bench grinder). Its a great machine but probably overpriced for what it does.

You are absolutely right about the edge from a tormek being able to shave hair. This doesn't mean that the tool is THAT sharp. I think for most jobs a tool sharpened with a Tormek is probably sharp enough but in demanding woods I suspect the edge would fail earlier and the finish may not be as smooth.

I have put this to the test over the weekend and my early gut feeling is that for those that are lucky enough to own a Tormek, if you are working in demanding timbers, you maybe better off creating a microbevel on your Tormek sharpened chisels or plane blades, using some waterstones.

This is my early experience with this. I must say that I have been using waterstones for a few years now and I am very comfortable with getting a good edge with them.

I suspect if I had never sharpened a tool before, the Tormek would suffice as a one stop shop for all my sharpening needs. However, having seen the edge I can achieve with stones, I think I will continue to put microbevels on my plane blades with the waterstones. For chisels I might convert completely to the Tormek. It depends how lazy I become.

This is not intended to shy people away from buying a Tormek. I would not have spent the money on it if I did not see its utility. The point that I am making is that you can get really sharp woodworking tools without the Tormek.

Kind regards

Marios

[GraemeCook]

The Veritas II has arrived and I have sharpened my first chisel using it and the scary sharp system. Probably the first time I have ever had a good flat primary bevel on a blade and a really sharp edge.

As a trial I used a backing board of melamine and found it is really not suitable. Surface is not smooth and I actually got a print through of the melamine pattern on the finer grades of wet & dry. Will have to get some plate glass backing boards. Also a magnifying glass.

Still, I am very impressed by these first efforts and suspect I will get even better results with experience and practice. Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement so far.

Now I have some additional questions;

*** What type of abrasive paper do you favour or find unsuitable - wet & dry, emery, aluminium oxide, other? Why.

*** what size sheets of abrasive do you prefer - third, half, full sheet or other? Why.

*** what grades of abrasive paper is best? I used 200, 320, 600, 1200 & 2000 wet & dry - suspect that a courser grade (100, 120?) would hasten the initial primary bevel and a finer grade (4000?) or a honing compound might enhance the final edge.

*** What size is optimal for the backing board/glass - same size as sandpaper, inch clearance all round, 10mm clearance on sides and 50mm each end, other? Why.

*** What glue is best for gluing sandpaper to glass block - contact adhesive, PVA, other? Why.

Now I realise that these are very basic questions for experienced practitioners but they are not so for me. I am trying to steepen my learning curve by applying your experience. So far this month, I believe that I have achieved something that I should have done 30+ years ago - and I feel good about it, but lament the lost years.

There is something elegant about a sharp tool.

Cheers

Graeme

[routermaniac]

I have been down that path and found that the wet and dry paper you get in most shops (ie Bunnings, supercheap), just doesn't last. I came across some old industrial belt sander belts and they seemed to last forever (grit 180???).

I used to use spray adhesive on a piece of glass (some just use water but it was no good for the idustrial grade paper I was using); I think there is no hard and fast rule as to the glass size, best though if you can fit 3 1/2 sheets onto the plate (for different grit paper).

As you say it does work well but I think if you have a lot of tools it is not cost effetive, you are better off with waterstones. Good paper is expensive and after a while all this adds up.

Good luck.

regards

marios

[GraemeCook]

Thanks Marios.

At a mates suggestion, I got my wet & dry from a store that sells to the panel beating industry. He said trade would not accept cheap junk.

You are probably right on long term costs, but this is a learning exercise for me, and when I am really comfortable with this system then I may look at other methods.

Cheers

Graeme

[rbarnold]

Hi,
I have just posted a new thread regarding scary sharp paper from 3M which is PSA backed, meaning that it has got Preasure Sensitive Adesive on the back where you just peal off the backing and stick it carefully on the glass.
This adesive is extremely strong and takes a bit of getting off when the paper is finally used up however the 3M paper lasts a long time due to its construction i.e. the grit is embedded in an epoxy layer which exposes new grit as the epoxy wears.
There are 5 grit sizes available starting at about 1000 and going up to about 12,000.
Each grit size polishes the steel more than the previous grit size giving a finer edge and sharper result.
There is no real nead to get all 5 as generaly 3 grits of 1,000 5,000 and 12,000 will surfice to give a razor sharp edge.
There is realy no need to go below 1,000 unless you drop the chisel etc. or nick the edge by hitting a nail which would need a regrind and and lower grits start with about 400.
Unless you have shake free hands I agree that you have purchased the best jig on the market with the veritas II.
It has been recomended to me from the suppliers of the paper to only use 1/2 a sheet at a time to get the most use out of the paper and I use a piece of plate glass about the size of an A4 sheet of paper and 10mm thick with ground edges, the excess glass is good for keeping a record of which grit is on that glass and other notes.
I keep the glass in a drawer in the shop where it is safe from breakage although 10mm thick plate glass would take a lot to break it, except perhaps dropping it from a bench top to a concrete floor.

Regards
Roger

[Clinton1]

When I was doing scary sharp:

I used a spray can adhesive from 3M that auto upholsterers use.
If you apply it to one surface only, you can peel off the sandpaper, when it is applied to both surfaces it is permanent glue... glass scrapes clean easily, so I usually stuck it down permanently.

I used a large plate 1m x 0.8m... could not be bothered with breaking down the plate that I bought. :rolleyes:
Stuck the different grades of sandpaper (wet and dry from the local paint store, the one that the car painters use) all around the plate.
Ideally you need enough glass so you can use all the paper, without the MkII jig running off the glass.

Later I bought some pieces of polished granite to use as flattening surfaces... you can usually pick them up cheap at wreckers/demolishers yards. The granite is very, very flat. Granite and glass was about the same price.

Sheet sizes - a bit wider than the widest plane blade, as long as a full sheet is long.

Grades - Try spending a fair bit of time on the 120 or 180 grade, and get the primary bevel 'true'. Once the primary bevel is true, I'd take it up to @ 600 grit. After this the primary bevel will be 'sorted' for a lot of secondary bevel sharpenings.
Work through the grades from the highest grade used on the primary bevel, to 2000. I'd go 800, 1200, 1500, 2000. I used to hold the blade so a bright light reflects off the secondary bevel, you can tell if the secondary bevel has been fully 'worked' to the new grit.

Don't forget you need to polish the back of the blade to whatever your highest grade is... a mirror finish on the back allows the bevel to meet it cleanly and produces a keener edge than you'd get without polishing the back.

All said and done, the hardest work is in polishing the back and setting up the primary bevel. After that, it is a matter of getting the secondary bevel to your finest grit without leaving any of the rougher grade scratches in it. After that, a 'touch up' on the last two finest grits generally reconditions the edge, as needed.

If you have a lot of blades to do, try the rolls of wet and dry, for the coarser grits that you want to use. Use battens and clamps to get these held tight over a flat surface... cause my glass was large, I could run 1m lengths (of the different grades, up to 600) across the glass and set up a little 'production line'. I did all my assorted blades over one weekend, so this helped.

Hope that answers your questions and helps a bit. Generally I type too much, so ...apologies.

:)

[Cruzi]

I have one piece of 800 grit glued to glass, this holds all other grits in place.

Once you have a good primary bevel, there is little need to ever go below 600 grit again (excluding a major disaster)

[GraemeCook]

Thanks guys.

After using poorly sharpened tools for 40 years, I am now feeling rather good as my chisels are actually cutting, rather than hacking. There is a big difference; a feel good difference.

Distilling the advice above, I think I will go with two sharpening boards:

*** Primary board for grinding primary bevel (and presumably for flattening backs of blades) with 120 - 1000 grit wet&dry.
*** Maintenance board with 1000+ wet&dry.

So far, the finest wet&dry I have are 1000 and 2000 grit. Should I go finer? perhaps progressively to the 12000 grit 3M stuff Roger mentioned.

Cheers

Graeme

[Cruzi]

To maintain an edge, I go 1200, 1500, 2000, Polishing compound on a leather strop, the Veritas or similar type.

To get primary bevel 600 seems to work fine unless damaged.

Keep in mind I'm no expert, this forum (read Derek Cohen) taught me everything about sharpening.