Ozito Router For CNC

[echnidna]

I know a few of you started off with an Ozito router on your CNC machines.

Why do they stop, is it just the bearings worn out? or do they actually burn out?

[crocky]

Mine has not stopped yet :) it is sitting on the floor collecting dust, anyone want to buy it :)

I got a Milwaulkee die grinder, it is much better in the bearing department. I think the Ozito is a good starting point though, $45 is not a lot of money either.

[echnidna]

I was just wondering if it'd be worth buying ozito and putting high quality bearings in it before using it.

[crocky]

I think I would just use it until it needed them, then replace them :)

[rodm]

Hi Bob,
The bearings are fine. They just burn out as they are not made to run for long periods. The heat just keeps building up and they let out the magic smoke.
I had three burn out (no I didn't claim warranty) before I got a die grinder.
They were good for about 100 to 150 hrs though which I thought was failrly reasonable so I am not knocking them.
A die grinder is good for about 500 hrs and then it is a $30 brush replacement. None of us have totally killed a die grinder yet.

[Greolt]

My experience with ozito was a little different. I've had two, still got one of those.

Only when brand new could i run them at full speed.

Soon after you would not be game to be in the room with it at more than half speed. Swear it was about to disintegrate.

But more important was the runout. Just not satisfactory for CNC work.

I would not waste another $50 on one. As I say that has been my experience.

Others have faired better.

Greg

[echnidna]

My unfinished machine is setup to take 4 routers so I can have 4 different profiles to use without changing tools. As well as an angle grinder so I can machine into edges with the same timber setup. I'll fit a collet chuck to the grinder so itll take a router bit.

I actually have 4 gmc routers of similar style as the ozito., But I expect to use up routers and as they're no longer available, I'll replace them with ozitos as they packup.

Might be worth thinking about a separate fan forced air supply into the routers to keep them as cool as possible.

Haven't been near the machine for a few years but I expect to have more time in a few months so I will get back to the beast then.

[rodm]

Greg
That explains my industrial deafness - SMBO says it is selective hearing and sometimes she might be right. :rolleyes:

Bob,
Greg makes a good point about runout. There is quite an expense to get a machine going so the trend is to go for a cheap router to finish the machine off.

Once up and running things change because woodworking hacks can now do high precision and detail that very few trained woodworkers can do by hand.

So the goal posts shift after a while and down the track we upgrade our machines trying to get even greater accuracy and faster production.

I like your thinking - don't worry about an automatic tool changer just have four quick change routers on hand. Thanks to Greg we have a $15 electronic zeroing plate so you can dial those routers in to your job.

A cheap computer fan would be worth trying.

[echnidna]

Thanks to Greg we have a $15 electronic zeroing plate so you can dial those routers in to your job.



Can you point me to that thread please Rod

[rodm]

It's on another forum
here (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36099)

Greg has also done a laser crosshair zero device for X ans Y axis. I used a cheap $20 web cam to do the same thing.
I have attached photos of the webcam and the result. It has about three times magnification so real easy to find where to start the job.
With all three axis able to be positioned setting up jobs is a breaze now.

[echnidna]

thanks rod, I have a good look.

[simso]

Im actually a fan of the little ozito router, I had clocked up over 200 hours when I decided to change it, I only changed it becuase I wanted to get a setup with a 1/2 router, I was still very happy with how it cut and the mirros I engraved with it. When I pulled the ozito off the cnc, it had massive slop in the bearings but it still cut nice. For 50 bucks I highly recommend them, most people without a cnc, you would be lucky to have used the router for 50 hours, so I do believe they are value for money.

If your willing to spend the big bucks then yes go bigger and better, buy a makita for 360 dollars etc, but when your starting out its a lot of money on top of what you have already spent

Personal choices, Im very happy to recommend them.

[echnidna]

There have been so many good comments on the little ozito on many threads I don't see any major issues with them. Eccentricity is usually the collet & swapping collets is an easy fix. If the shaft bore is off centre then fitting a cutter with a dial indicator will usually get both blades in the same cutting arc.

You blokes who are using ozitos on cnc machines are working them much harder than any bench router would be used (apart from abuse). So by treating them as a consumable in the same way as cutters are consumables, then they should be quite worthwhile. If I got into the production that my machine was designed for then 4 new routers a month is a very minor maintainence cost.

As I said previously I setup Gmc's not realising they'd be discontinued, so as I swing over to Ozitos I may hafta refit the routers but with a bit of luck the spigot bosses might be a suitable diameter anyway. My little routers probably won't get get overworked a lot as they will be for vee, cove & small straight cutters. My primary router is a Hitachi TR12 with 90mm long straight cutter. There will also be a right angle router (angle grinder with collet chuck on a 4th axis) so I can cut mortises into the sides of the part being made.

I probably won't get back to the machine for a few months yet, but I keep my eye on whats happening in the cnc world.

Rant over

[garym]

It's on another forum
here (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36099)

Greg has also done a laser crosshair zero device for X ans Y axis. I used a cheap $20 web cam to do the same thing.
I have attached photos of the webcam and the result. It has about three times magnification so real easy to find where to start the job.
With all three axis able to be positioned setting up jobs is a breaze now.

Interesting camera, can you tell me where you got it from?

Cheers.

[rodm]

Got them on ebay. I wouldn't have thought they were still around with rapid changes in that technology but found one here (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/5-0-Mega-Pixel-Driverless-USB-Pinhole-Camera-Webcam-New_W0QQitemZ120394068023QQihZ002QQcategoryZ130881QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Not recommending that seller just pointing you to the product.

[garym]

Thanks for that, Rod, I can think of a few uses for that shape - very useful.

[Ch4iS]

wow, never thought the touch pad was such a simple device yet effective, I always thought it was made with microswitches, so is the zero plate fixed or do you just zero when you start a new job?


RE: Ozito router, works great for the price I never had any issues but im only at 12 hours use over 6 or so months I think it is now, so it gets bugger all use.

[garym]

Eccentricity is usually the collet & swapping collets is an easy fix. If the shaft bore is off centre then fitting a cutter with a dial indicator will usually get both blades in the same cutting arc.

I have just completed my first CNC machine and am using the Ozito. My first test cuts seemed fine (in fact great) but I have just tried using a twist drill to drill some 1/4" holes in the table surface for clamps and noticed that they were coming out way over size - a quick check showed the end of the bit wobbling all over the place - at first I thought I must have a bent drill bit but when I replaced it with a router bit and measured it with a dial indicator I found it too was way out - just not as noticeably because it is much shorter.

I have swapped over the collet to no avail, I am interested in your comment about using a dial indicator but don't quite see what you are getting at - can you expand on that please?

Cheers

[Greolt]

I have to say a spindle with a measurable amount of runout has no place on a CNC machine.

Unlike in other uses, in CNC we depend on the precision of our machines to transfer the accurate dimensions we make on CAD drawings to the finished work piece.

So we rely on the cut being exactly as wide as it should be. And to be consistent each time we mount that bit.

In other types of CNC cutting we need that vee cutter to spin precisely on it's point so as to get good definition on fine vee carving and produce sharp crisp corners.

In engraving and PCB milling we need to produce very fine cuts only a few thou wide.

Both the collet and the taper in which it rides must have exactly the same amount of runout to cancel each other out by turing the collet to a new position. This is highly unlikely.

Mostly we use spiral cut router bits or sharp pointed vee bits or fine engraving bits. None of these will be fixed by turning them a quarter turn.

Once you start to use your CNC router for a variety of tasks you will soon realise that you need something with good runout specs.

IMHO the Ozito does not fit that bill. Or at least none that I have seen.

Greg

[rodm]

Garym
Would like to see some photos of your machine.

[garym]

I have to say a spindle with a measurable amount of runout has no place on a CNC machine.
Greg

Indeed, I was certainly not expecting any.



IMHO the Ozito does not fit that bill. Or at least none that I have seen.
Greg

That seems to be the general concensus as far as I can ascertain. Alas, here in Australia we seem to be between a rock and a hard place since there are not many alternatives to this particular router (i.e. most affordable routers are non-demountable plunge types).

It appears that I may need to build my own spindle.

BTW my choice of the Ozito was based more on mountability than price, still I would not like to spend more on a router than the entire CNC machine if I can help it. Any suggestions?

[garym]

Garym
Would like to see some photos of your machine.

Nothing too special I'm afraid Rod, I am certainly a novice with CNC and a hobbyist only, my CNC is based on the buildyourCNC.com version. None-the-less I have a lot of use for this machine, and the item shown in the slide show is waaaay more accurate than anything I have been able to manually manufacture even with the runout (although I am beginning to suspect that it is worse now than when this was cut - my first).

The item shown is a Nipkow disk and the position of the holes to hold the beads have to be very accurate indeed - and they were!

Cheers,

gary

[rodm]

Hi Gary,
You are in good company as I am a hobbiest and still learning as well. The proof of a good build is the product it produces and I can't see anything wrong with your Nipkow Disk - whatever that is. :) Might google that one
As for alternatives to the Ozito look here (http://www.justtools.com.au/category15_1.htm)
These models are suitable and sized close to your Ozito
AEG variable speed AEGGS500E
Bosch variable speed GGS27C
Milwaukee variable speed DG30QE
I have fitted all three of these on machines and none are better than the other and they all perform well. Make sure you get the variable speed model.
I am not promoting Just Tools and only using their on line catalogue for a reference.

[garym]

Thanks Rod, I will post the results of this disk that will explain all, but as yet I have been unable to work out how to photograph/video it (hint the disk spins at 750 rpm). It has nothing at all to do with woodworking but the (CNC'd) cabinet that will hold it certainly will but that's another issue...

Thanks for the links, I have already seen these (drooling) but, believe it or not, each one of these would exceed the total cost of the CNC machine - including the Ozito router - except this one:

Makita Die Grinder #GD0600

(OK looking at my pathetic machine you would believe it - lol)

Of course I am an electrical engineer so was able to fabricate my own stepper motor controllers etc. which kept the cost down.

In truth, the only real reason for keeping the cost down was that it was intended to be an entry level experiment to see if it would do the job, well it has, so if I have to expend more money for more reliable results - so be it.

BTW Of all the power tools I am aware of a Die Grinder must be the most obscure - do these units have usable collets or would these need to be added?

Thanks again,
gary

[rodm]

Hi Gary,
They are identical to the Ozito in looks once the Ozito is stripped and are supplied with the same - well similar collet. They are made for side loads so generally have a couple of bearings in the head or at least good quality ones. They also spin about the same speeds as the Ozito.

I certainly would not call your machine pathetic and for proof of concept it is a good choice of expenditure and materials. There are heaps of MDF machines running allthread being made and if this gets you into the hobby then go for it.

My first machine was budget and I fabricated my linear rails from skate bearings and the screws were Acme with Delrin nuts. It ran on these for twelve months and they really didn't need replacing except that I wanted to upgrade to commercial linear rails and ballscrews. That machine has been worked like a dog for three years, worn out three Ozito routers and two die grinders in that time and it is still my first choice when I have a job to do. I recently gave it to my son and I will only have visiting rights from now on. :)

I suppose the point I am trying to make is there is no need for excuses as our first attempts are usually conservative because we are not sure if the machine will work or indeed this is something we want to persue long term.

[twistedfuse]

Rod,

I just got two of those webcams, bit dearer now but they look the easiest to mount to the z axis. Just curious, do you have a button that calls the video wizard and also a button to run a macro to zero to the centre of the webcam view? How easy was it to setup? I really want to sit down soon and design a new screen set that will work for me.

Daniel

BTW Kress make a really nice router for use with a cnc, it uses ER collets but i can't remember which company in Australia sold them.

[Greolt]

Yes the Kress spindles are really nice. And they compare OK with say a milwalkee or bosch die grinder, price wise.

The body and motor is very comparable to a typical die grinder but the difference is they are made with spindle use in mind.

So they put more effort into the concentricity of the collet taper and the quality of the collets. Also have a good range of collet sizes.

A few CNC blokes here in Victoria have them and purchased through someone in Germany. Good prices. Not sure if this link is the right one price wise.

http://www.cnc-plus.de/product_info.php?currency=EUR&info=p748_Kress-FME-800-Spindles.html

Greg

[seafurymike]

Gary,

I run an Ozito router too and as suggested in previous posts there is run-out associated with the unit. I had always thought of trying to change the bearings to stiffen the unit.

I mean this is a cheap unit, but if you cut fret work and such like me, the run-out isn't the issue. I am looking for repeatability of cutting many of the same. It seems to manage 5mm cuts in MDF okay, actually I have cut 10mm runs at a slower feed, but you get burning.

Now, if you want the accuracy the upper priced units are the way to go. I would prefer to build a high speed spindle instead of mounting a bought unit.But this is just my preference.

Like your build. Keep it simple, get into the hobby and use that unit to build pieces which will give you more accuracy or rigidity. Atleast that is how i have approached this.

Keep up the good work

[twistedfuse]

I currently run a metabo variable die grinder, very simple to mount and very reliable, has run for 2hrs cont. under load without heating up much at all. With that said the limit is an 8mm collet, i will be looking into the kress or demountable router to get the 1/2" collet capability.

Daniel

[rodm]

Hi Daniel,
If you look at Greg's thread on the Zone the script is there.
Go to the end to see the latest script here. (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36099)

[twistedfuse]

I'm probably just missing it, but the link takes me to the toll zero plate script. Im looking for the script to reset the DRO for using the webcam for finding the origin and setting it at 0,0.

Daniel

[Greolt]

Daniel this is what I use. Many ways to skin a cat.

Xmove = GetUserDRO(1152) 'X distance DRO
Ymove = GetUserDRO(1153) 'Y distance DRO

Code "G91 G0 X" &Xmove & "Y" &Ymove
While IsMoving ()
Wend
Code "G90"
DoOEMButton (1008) 'zero the X DRO
DoOEMButton (1009) 'zero the Y DRO

This is using two DROs on screen to set the offset. Probably easier to just hard code the offsets.

For example,

Code "G91 G0 X-50 Y-50" 'put appropriate values here
While IsMoving ()
Wend
Code "G90"
DoOEMButton (1008) 'zero the X DRO
DoOEMButton (1009) 'zero the Y DRO

Greg

[twistedfuse]

Thanks greg,
Will try this when i get the webcams.

Daniel

[Greolt]

Another way, even simpler,

SetOEMDRO (800,50) 'put X offset here
SetOEMDRO (801,50) 'put Y offset here
Sleep 100
Code "G0 X0 Y0"

[rodm]

Hi Greg,
You are certainly getting on top of the VB code now. :2tsup:

Hi Daniel,
Sorry it was my turn for one of those moments.
Try here (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48752&highlight=aussie+laser)

[twistedfuse]

Thanks guys,

Have to brush up on my vb code. Just curious too, the difference between a macro and a brain for mach si that the brain uses logic tables (AND, OR, NOT, XOR etc) with external signals etc??? Also would it be better to design a button/switches console with a modbus i/o or usb controller.

Daniel

[Greolt]

From what I understand Modbus will be more capable.

There is a USB IO device that has a Mach plugin written for it called Pokeys.

Has over 50 IO and two analogue I think.

http://www.poscope.com/product.php?pid=3 (http://www.poscope.com/)

http://www.machsupport.com/plugins.php

If I was doing a control panel with lots of buttons I would look at this.

Greg

[garym]

In hunting around for prices on Variable Speed Die Grinders I noticed that (not surprisingly) air Die Grinders are much less expensive (until you add the compressor of course) and they also seem to be more prevalent.

Has anyone considered using one for CNC? Is there some fundamental reason for not doing so? Presumably variable speed can be obtained by varying the air pressure (not sure what the usable range would be but in my early work career I used to use all sorts of air tools regularly and they were powerful and verstile). The hose would be a nuisance but an overhang should be sufficient.

Looking at prices it would seem you can get a compressor + Die Grinder for about the same price as a good quality electric Die grinder - and I've always wanted a compressor ;-)

[rodm]

Air die grinders are really noisy.

[stevejw]

Hi Gary,
Others will no doubt comment on this question with more experience than me but for my 2 cents worth and I have used air die grinders for porting heads etc. I don't think they are suitable as they require lubrication constantly and then the lub oil makes the exhaust port very messy. This would be over your job which maybe timber/wood/MDF not good.http://www.woodworkforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

I would think electric would be cleaner and easier to control speed etc.:2tsup:

Just my humble opinion.

Cheers
Steve

[garym]

Air die grinders are really noisy.

Yes I thought that might be the case, although it's hard to believe they would be much noisier than the Ozito - it screams like a Banshee...

[garym]

HI don't think they are suitable as they require lubrication constantly and then the lub oil makes the exhaust port very messy. This would be over your job which maybe timber/wood/MDF not good.Steve

Yeah, my pictures probably show I have already made that mistake when lubricating the lead screws - a real pain

[stevejw]

Gary,
Try silicon spray a little coating should be all that is required, non sticky so the dust should not stick. We use it on garage door chains and pipe supports as a lub.

Cheers:U
Steve

[rodm]

Just make sure you do not get the silicone on the table as it can play havoc with finishes.

[HammaHed]

I used to manually balance armatures for a profession in an Australian industrial electrical motor manufacturing plant.

It was a queer art, using a mix of where the testing equipment said the out of balance vibration occurred and the intuitive locating of the counter weights..

I could easily get the armatures to run within about 0.5 gram out of balance - and they were generally considered to be "balanced" within 5 grams.

Etc.

An almost perfectly balanced armature, running in high quality and properly sealed bearings, in an appropriately strong housing, with more than adequate cooling - with precision centering and alignment and accuracy through the armature shaft, collet and bit; should - with proper feed rates etc., last almost for ever; and give very accurate cutting for a LONG time.

My feeling is that without having ever tested the actual failing routers, that there may be either a single issue or a combination of issues, leading to inaccuracies and early failure rates amongst the lower quality routers and die grinders etc.,

Given that most cheaper routers are built to a price, instead of a standard; and by standard I mean one ought to be able to use them for a significantly long period of time with no measurable run out - their quality of work and their lack of durability comes as no surprise.

Consider the humble taxi engine - it's almost always running, they are regularly serviced with regular oil changes etc., that even after running in the thousands of RPM's over a few hundred thousand KM's, that there is almost no measurable run out or wear on the crank shaft, and yet the routers are producing progressively worse cuts, increasing their run out and dropping dead from shat bearings etc., within very sort periods of time.

Setting aside the issue of commutator wear:

In terms of equivalent RPM, since a router is essentially nothing more than a shaft with a cutter stuck on the end; why are they not achieving the same reliability, and accuracy as the crank shafts in taxi engines.... that are still in perfectly serviceable condition after 300,000 or 500,000 KM.

The answer is "Because the routers are junk:" - that's why.

[garym]

It is, of course impossible to refute the logic, and yet people still buy the Ozitos, why?

Ozito = $50
AEG Die Grinder 500w 1/4. #AEGGS500E (cheapest) = $300 + freight

i.e. at least 6 times the price.

That's why!

...and, of course, Taxi drivers/owners don't pay for their engines, the cost is passed on to the customer (and the taxation office), I certainly haven't seen many hobby Taxis around, but my hobby car is certainly nowhere near as reliable ;-)

It's the age-old problem - how much money do you want to spend on your hobby? Obviously if it's a real passion then to many the sky's the limit, but if you just want to get your feet wet to see if you like it, money is usually a big consideration.

I really don't want something (necessarily) to last for ever (or even a long time), I just want it to do a reasonable job at a reasonable price, for the relatively small amount of use it would get as a hobby tool, alas it always seems to be the way that it is either 'junk' or Rolls Royce (at least in terms of price), there never seems to be anything in between. to be honest I wouldn't mind too much if I only got 6 months use out of the Ozito before it wore out, if it did the job over that period, alas it doesn't (at least mine didn't).

We seem to pay the price here (as opposed to say, the US) for the fact that the intermediate routers (cost and performance wise) are all of the type that make them hard to mount on a CNC machine, no one as yet seems to have come up with a good explanation as to why that is.